How Bad are AKME?

[Dan Z]

He got his start as a scout with the Bullets.

Okay, that makes more sense.

It was there he met Phil Jackson. He wanted the Bullets to draft him but they didnt.

Phil was an okay player, so I'm not sure what that says about Krause's ability to scout talent. I doubt that in 1967 Jerry thought Phil would some day make a great coach (even though the connection ultimately worked out).

[prolific passer]

Okay, that makes more sense.

It was there he met Phil Jackson. He wanted the Bullets to draft him but they didnt.

Phil was an okay player, so I'm not sure what that says about Krause's ability to scout talent. I doubt that in 1967 Jerry thought Phil would some day make a great coach (even though the connection ultimately worked out).

I believe Krause was also part of the bulls during the 76 draft and suggested they should draft Parish. They didn't like that and fired him. I mean they had Gilmore coming in so it didn't make much sense. They drafted Scott May I think and passed up on Adrian Dantley or Alex English. Could have had both really but also could have went Dantley and Dennis Johnson or English and Dennis Johnson with their first 2 picks to team up with Gilmore.

[Dan Z]

It was there he met Phil Jackson. He wanted the Bullets to draft him but they didnt.

Phil was an okay player, so I'm not sure what that says about Krause's ability to scout talent. I doubt that in 1967 Jerry thought Phil would some day make a great coach (even though the connection ultimately worked out).

I believe Krause was also part of the bulls during the 76 draft and suggested they should draft Parish. They didn't like that and fired him. I mean they had Gilmore coming in so it didn't make much sense. They drafted Scott May I think and passed up on Adrian Dantley or Alex English. Could have had both really but also could have went Dantley and Dennis Johnson or English and Dennis Johnson with their first 2 picks to team up with Gilmore.

Reinsdorf bought the Bulls in 1985. Do you think he knew much about Krause in regards to the 1976 draft? Maybe someone on staff told him? Or Krause mentioned it in an interview?

Adrian Dantley, Artis Gilmore, Dennis Johnson, Bob Love and Norm Van Lier would've been an interesting team.

[prolific passer]

Phil was an okay player, so I'm not sure what that says about Krause's ability to scout talent. I doubt that in 1967 Jerry thought Phil would some day make a great coach (even though the connection ultimately worked out).

I believe Krause was also part of the bulls during the 76 draft and suggested they should draft Parish. They didn't like that and fired him. I mean they had Gilmore coming in so it didn't make much sense. They drafted Scott May I think and passed up on Adrian Dantley or Alex English. Could have had both really but also could have went Dantley and Dennis Johnson or English and Dennis Johnson with their first 2 picks to team up with Gilmore.

Reinsdorf bought the Bulls in 1985. Do you think he knew much about Krause in regards to the 1976 draft? Maybe someone on staff told him? Or Krause mentioned it in an interview?

Adrian Dantley, Artis Gilmore, Dennis Johnson, Bob Love and Norm Van Lier would've been an interesting team.

I think Reinsdorf knew Krause personally and put friendship above business and trusted Krause too much because of it.

[Jcool0]

Okay, that makes more sense.

It was there he met Phil Jackson. He wanted the Bullets to draft him but they didnt.

Phil was an okay player, so I'm not sure what that says about Krause's ability to scout talent. I doubt that in 1967 Jerry thought Phil would some day make a great coach (even though the connection ultimately worked out).

He played 10 years in NY was a key contributor to there '73 title team (sixth man award didn't exsist then) and was also on the all rookie first team. So probably better then the 2nd round pick the Bullets made.

[Dan Z]

I was thinking about the pick that Portland owes Chicago...how is is that AK didn't get less protections on it? I know that Markkanen's value wasn't what it is today, but at that time he was a young player who showed potential. Couldn't he at least get a mid to late first round pick for him?

I don't count DDJ because I never thought he was anything other than a role player.

[Muzbar]

I was thinking about the pick that Portland owes Chicago...how is is that AK didn't get less protections on it? I know that Markkanen's value wasn't what it is today, but at that time he was a young player who showed potential. Couldn't he at least get a mid to late first round pick for him?

I don't count DDJ because I never thought he was anything other than a role player.

Or at least have the protections get less over time, i.e., top 14 then top 12, top 10 etc, etc...

Chicago will never see that pick.

[Dan Z]

I was thinking about the pick that Portland owes Chicago...how is is that AK didn't get less protections on it? I know that Markkanen's value wasn't what it is today, but at that time he was a young player who showed potential. Couldn't he at least get a mid to late first round pick for him?

I don't count DDJ because I never thought he was anything other than a role player.

Or at least have the protections get less over time, i.e., top 14 then top 12, top 10 etc, etc...

Chicago will never see that pick.

Exactly, but I'd even go one step further...if it's not going to convey for years then make sure that at some point it has to (meaning unprotected or very limited protection like top 2).

I'm sure they thought it might convey because Portland was an okay team with Lillard, but you can't make deals based on that. Make sure things are definite. Keep in mind all the possible outcomes.

Right now it's a pick that's basically meaningless for the Bulls.

[Muzbar]

Portland are somewhat in a bind themselves in that they can't trade any future pick until this pick either conveys or finishes its protection in 2028. Not that they are in a rush considering they are rebuilding.

But of they'd like to work out a deal to extinguish those protections this might be the draft for then to do it, they own the Warriors pick in this draft (14th), I'd try to work out a deal to acquire that pick for the return of their own pick.

Bulls then have 2 middling picks to either grab to prospects, or move up for someone they may like (Buzelis) or use one to trade back for some later picks.

[Benedict Miller]

John Paxson was a much better GM for the Bulls

[prolific passer]

John Paxson was a much better GM for the Bulls

True but Pax couldn't handle failure as the bulls GM. Messed up really 1 time and just refuses to try to correct it.

[dougthonus]

True but Pax couldn't handle failure as the bulls GM. Messed up really 1 time and just refuses to try to correct it.

I think Pax was above average as a GM, but my view of GMs may also be somewhat unusual. I think most team building is actually based on luck in the NBA, and then a lot of what a GM does or doesn't do is also based on ownership mandate / direction, and I judge a GM mainly based not on the team success as a whole, but in the quality of the moves they make relative to the moves available within the constraints provided.

That said:
1: Feels like he messed up a lot more than once
2: Had a pretty good history of addressing his mistakes

[MrSparkle]

Well we've had the Pax debate ad nauseum. On a bright note, the 04/05, 06/07 and post-deadline 08/09 teams were some of my favorite to watch. He did have some bad luck with Deng broken wrist. He was having a nice rookie season. Curry's heart was a bummer on the season, but the Isiah trade was a GM's dream. I think Pax was leaning towards moving on from Eddy regardless (just like Jamal, and eventually Tyson - not his type).

My hunch is that if he could take it back, he'd obviously pick Aldridge and keep Chandler over dumping him and signing Wallace - he did own up to those mistakes, rather quickly. The crazy thing, is that I'm not sure Arturas could admit how bad the Vuc trade was(/is). He doesn't seem to acknowledge how difficult his job is right now, due to that bad trade.

The hard thing about judging Pax is the line is blurred as to how much influence he had, once Gar took the GM position.

I thought hiring VDN was bizarre. The choke episode was sketchy. I actually didn't think that having a "hands-off" coach was a bad thing, as whatever happened, happened -- Rose developed into a superstar in his rookie season.

Anyway, Chicago Bulls really have had bad luck, regardless of who has been in charge. Yes, they hurt their odds in some critical drafts (particularly Lebron/Wade/Melo/Bosh, strange decision by Krause - and Luka year of course), but overall, odds are odds. Bulls keep missing the generational #1s, or getting season-ending injuries (with no recovery) to promising top-10 picks or prized FAs.

AK made his job much harder by sending so many twenty year olds out the door, and he's been increasingly reliant on washed veterans. The hit rate with the young players is looking abysmal. He had one "outside-the-box" summer, but otherwise, the moves seem like they're asking ChatGPT what to do (with some dated data).. incl. hiring Billy. Continuity is fine for developing prospects, but it's very costly running back a net-negative veteran group, as their values decline by the year.

[prolific passer]

True but Pax couldn't handle failure as the bulls GM. Messed up really 1 time and just refuses to try to correct it.

I think Pax was above average as a GM, but my view of GMs may also be somewhat unusual. I think most team building is actually based on luck in the NBA, and then a lot of what a GM does or doesn't do is also based on ownership mandate / direction, and I judge a GM mainly based not on the team success as a whole, but in the quality of the moves they make relative to the moves available within the constraints provided.

That said:
1: Feels like he messed up a lot more than once
2: Had a pretty good history of addressing his mistakes

I read that the reason he made the no headband rule was just because he hated Eddie Robinson. Thought that was pretty funny.

I get Pax made quite a few mistakes but the Aldridge and Chandler one really stands out. He probably could have fixed that if he really wanted to though.

Also you're right about needing some luck. He had good luck with most of his picks but bad luck with other moves it seems.