How Bad are AKME?

[prolific passer]

If akme or ak want to turn it around. Need to develop a plan/culture and find the players to fit it.

[Dan Z]

People here legitimately think Krause was a bad GM. It's mind boggling to me.

To answer your question, AKME is horrendous. I don't see how you can give them anything better than an F. They've ruined the Bulls present and future. There's not much to be hopeful about.

This is all relative. From a decision making standpoint Krause was good but he still made some mistakes post Dynasty. He gave up on the first rebuild too quickly. You don’t trade away your best player in Elton Brand for an unproven high school prospect unless it is a LeBron Caliber Prospect which Tyson Chandler wasn’t. If he were a little more patient he could have built a formidable core with Brand, Artest, and Brad Miller.

Also part of being a good GM is creating a strong culture which was a fail. You don’t make enemies with the greatest to ever play the game. Krause’s ego broke up a dynasty prematurely.

Brand wanted out... He hated Krause talking about his Mom's hands and that is real. Krause creeped him out and he was offended from day 1. Artest... well he kinda needed to go. His first game after coming back from a broken hand he punches the scorers table, naked pullups in the locker room, best buy etc... That group had the talent but seemed they weren't going to mesh and Floyd was an issue too he wanted out of there by the end for sure, he looked like he welcomed a firing. Now the Artest Miller trade was poor value. Krause was desperate to get a name after his Big "3" plan failed in the most spectacular way. Hell it was a good idea and had he not alienated the Dynasty and just let them retire by attrition (likely would have happened after 98 especially with the strike) it very well may have worked. His damn hubris is what ruined him. He had great ideas, was a hard worker but his ego was just so out of control.

Krause needed to be a better manager. That's part of the job (General Manager). If you can't do that then why are you even in the position?

I agree with you about everything you said above. I'll add that breaking up the dynasty should've been a fireable offense, especially the stuff he pulled with the coaching hire and telling Phil Jackson that he won't be back even if he goes undefeated.

Having said that, I did want to see what he could do after the dynasty team ended. He didn't do well, but I give him credit for taking risks.

[dougthonus]

This is all relative. From a decision making standpoint Krause was good but he still made some mistakes post Dynasty. He gave up on the first rebuild too quickly. You don’t trade away your best player in Elton Brand for an unproven high school prospect unless it is a LeBron Caliber Prospect which Tyson Chandler wasn’t. If he were a little more patient he could have built a formidable core with Brand, Artest, and Brad Miller.

Also part of being a good GM is creating a strong culture which was a fail. You don’t make enemies with the greatest to ever play the game. Krause’s ego broke up a dynasty prematurely.

Brand wanted out... He hated Krause talking about his Mom's hands and that is real. Krause creeped him out and he was offended from day 1. Artest... well he kinda needed to go. His first game after coming back from a broken hand he punches the scorers table, naked pullups in the locker room, best buy etc... That group had the talent but seemed they weren't going to mesh and Floyd was an issue too he wanted out of there by the end for sure, he looked like he welcomed a firing. Now the Artest Miller trade was poor value. Krause was desperate to get a name after his Big "3" plan failed in the most spectacular way. Hell it was a good idea and had he not alienated the Dynasty and just let them retire by attrition (likely would have happened after 98 especially with the strike) it very well may have worked. His damn hubris is what ruined him. He had great ideas, was a hard worker but his ego was just so out of control.

Krause needed to be a better manager. That's part of the job (General Manager). If you can't do that then why are you even in the position?

I agree with you about everything you said above. I'll add that breaking up the dynasty should've been a fireable offense, especially the stuff he pulled with the coaching hire and telling Phil Jackson that he won't be back even if he goes undefeated.

Having said that, I did want to see what he could do after the dynasty team ended. He didn't do well, but I give him credit for taking risks.

Krause hit three grandslams in his career:
Phil Jackson / Tex Winter plucked from no where
Scottie Pippen
Toni Kukoc

The team overrode him on Horace Grant when he waned Joe Wolf because the previous year he screwed up so bad taking Brad Sellers when the staff all wanted Johnny Dawkins. In his 17 years, I'm not sure there is another draft pick he made where he got really good value relative to expectations.

He did bring in decent pieces around Jordan / Pippen, but probably not a hard task when everyone wanted to get rings, and there weren't any other brilliant pieces.

So on the one hand, give him credit for hitting 3 grand slams, that's probably better than a long career of singles and doubles, because the combo of Pippen/Jordan were enough to get 6 rings and without getting that other superstar caliber player, they probably wouldn't have had 6 rings.

On the other hand, his batting average was like 10%, there's every reason to think he just got lucky, he alienated everyone around him, and you should have zero faith he could have ever repeated anything he did again. I think from a strategy perspective, I liked how he approached the rebuild in aiming for stars and understood the league, but from an execution perspective he was just an absolutely awful scout with a terrible draft record once you realize one of the three good picks made in his entire regime was against his will.

[Ice Man]

Krause hit three grandslams in his career:
Phil Jackson / Tex Winter plucked from no where
Scottie Pippen
Toni Kukoc

I think you have to add Rodman to that list. But yeah, Krause didn't have a high batting average. He just hit the ball very far when he did make contact. Dave Kingman he was.

[MrSparkle]

Krause hit three grandslams in his career:
Phil Jackson / Tex Winter plucked from no where
Scottie Pippen
Toni Kukoc

I think you have to add Rodman to that list. But yeah, Krause didn't have a high batting average. He just hit the ball very far when he did make contact. Dave Kingman he was.

I dunno- something to be said about Brand, Artest, Miller, Crawford… those were excellent pickups.

Tim Floyd, the failed Curry/Chandler swing and his personality/reputation did him in, towards the end. Well, Jalen Rose was the nail in the coffin. AK got the 3 strikes done in 1.5 years!

[dougthonus]

I dunno- something to be said about Brand, Artest, Miller, Crawford… those were excellent pickups.

Brand was a 1A/1B #1 pick with Odom, and hard to say one of those guys was really better than the other, he really couldn't screw that up. Artest never did anything here and was **** crazy, and ultimately was a pretty good player somewhere else. Miller was a fine pick up as free agent on a 2 year deal, but nothing out of the ordinary in terms of value here.

Crawford was a 6th man who also did little while he was here or immediately afterwards. He ultimately had a very long steady career and was in a crap draft, so was a good pick, but again, nothing particularly special. I wouldn't define any of these moves as misses, but none of them were big hits either relative to expectations, alternative choices, or impact to the Bulls.

[dougthonus]

Krause hit three grandslams in his career:
Phil Jackson / Tex Winter plucked from no where
Scottie Pippen
Toni Kukoc

I think you have to add Rodman to that list. But yeah, Krause didn't have a high batting average. He just hit the ball very far when he did make contact. Dave Kingman he was.

Maybe, but Jordan personally recruited Rodman, and Krause himself said the decision to get Rodman was ultimately left up to Phil and whether he wanted to put up with him. Rodman was 34 and available for nothing because he was a nut case. The move worked out because of Jordan/Phil, and ultimately was a good decision and Krause certainly didn't object or need to be talked into it, but it's kind of a unicorn situation too.

I'm not sure how much credit I'd give to Krause on that move in terms of why it was made and why it worked. Not a Horace situation where he actively tried to do something else and was blocked by the org, but definitely also not a Toni or Scottie situation where he personally had his fingerprints all over the move in a rare feat of sleuthing something out.

[Ice Man]

Maybe, but Jordan personally recruited Rodman, and Krause himself said the decision to get Rodman was ultimately left up to Phil and whether he wanted to put up with him. Rodman was 34 and available for nothing because he was a nut case. The move worked out because of Jordan/Phil, and ultimately was a good decision and Krause certainly didn't object or need to be talked into it, but it's kind of a unicorn situation too.

I'm not sure how much credit I'd give to Krause on that move in terms of why it was made and why it worked. Not a Horace situation where he actively tried to do something else and was blocked by the org, but definitely also not a Toni or Scottie situation where he personally had his fingerprints all over the move in a rare feat of sleuthing something out.

Got it. I had thought that Rodman was Krause's idea. From your explanation, though, it sounds as if Krause should not get a fourth gold star for Dennis. He did well by not getting in the way, but if it wasn't his baby, then it wasn't his baby.

[prolific passer]

Some probably knew that Krause was going to be a failure at rebuilding with so many bad draft picks during his time when the dynasty was going. Also I don't think it made him look good when Thorn took over the nets and turned them from a lottery team to back to back finals appearances in his first 2 years being in charge of them. I'm sure Jordan reminded Krause on a daily basis that he wasn't the one who drafted him and that had to get under his skin.

[dougthonus]

Got it. I had thought that Rodman was Krause's idea. From your explanation, though, it sounds as if Krause should not get a fourth gold star for Dennis. He did well by not getting in the way, but if it wasn't his baby, then it wasn't his baby.

Yeah, I don't want to say it wasn't Krause's baby. I mean going back in time, everyone knew the Bulls needed a rebounder and everyone knew Rodman was available. SA was actively shopping him, Krause answered the phone and brought it to Phil and Michael, but left the decision with Phil because everyone knew Rodman was a nutcase, and it was up to Phil if he wanted to cope with it.

In that sense, I definitely think he gets some credit. He didn't hang up the phone like 28 other GMs. When I think of grand slams though, I mean, being in on Pippen way ahead of everyone else then actively trading up to get him was brilliant and a big risk. Plucking Toni out of Europe before that was a thing was something no one else in the league was going to do. Those were moves that Krause made happen that a replacement GM does not make happen and even a good GM probably does not make happen.

Rodman is probably a move a replacement GM still makes because of the situation.

Like I said though, Krause hit a couple grand slams and got 6 titles. A guy who hit a bunch of doubles may have only gotten 2 or 4. It's really hard to envision a scenario given Jordan retiring for a year and a half, where some other GM would have gotten 7 or 8. I think those couple huge moves ultimately did maximize what this team could be.

How you weigh that all in Krause's legacy is also interesting and up for debate (which is why there are so many debates about him). I kind of hold the awkward position that I don't think anyone could have reasonably gotten better results than Krause holistically, while also holding the position that the vast majority of his moves were failures. He's like a guy who made 30 stock picks in 1980 and one of them was microsoft, one was intel, and the other 28 went bankrupt, and it really doesn't matter.

[Dan Z]

Some probably knew that Krause was going to be a failure at rebuilding with so many bad draft picks during his time when the dynasty was going. Also I don't think it made him look good when Thorn took over the nets and turned them from a lottery team to back to back finals appearances in his first 2 years being in charge of them. I'm sure Jordan reminded Krause on a daily basis that he wasn't the one who drafted him and that had to get under his skin.

Why was Thorn fired? It's so long ago that I don't remember.

You'd think that drafting Jordan would give a GM some leeway for awhile.

[prolific passer]

Some probably knew that Krause was going to be a failure at rebuilding with so many bad draft picks during his time when the dynasty was going. Also I don't think it made him look good when Thorn took over the nets and turned them from a lottery team to back to back finals appearances in his first 2 years being in charge of them. I'm sure Jordan reminded Krause on a daily basis that he wasn't the one who drafted him and that had to get under his skin.

Why was Thorn fired? It's so long ago that I don't remember.

You'd think that drafting Jordan would give a GM some leeway for awhile.

Who knows? Thorn and Jordan always seemed to have a good relationship. Thorn I believe was in charge of the dream team recruiting in 92 also.

[Jcool0]

Krause hit three grandslams in his career:
Phil Jackson / Tex Winter plucked from no where
Scottie Pippen
Toni Kukoc

I think you have to add Rodman to that list. But yeah, Krause didn't have a high batting average. He just hit the ball very far when he did make contact. Dave Kingman he was.

Like so much with Krause everything he did only works with Jordan being on that team. Yeah Pippen is a HOF player he drafted and the Bulls don't have two 3 peats without him. But does Pippen even last in the league without Jordan? He was a raw player from a small school and who knows how truthful it was but judging from the Last Dance Jordan helped developed him more than anyone. Rodman was a HOF talent that probably washes out of the league in the mid 90s if the Bulls don't trade for him and Jordan was probably the only player in the league who he would at lest somewhat listen to. The only thing he was really ahead of the curve on was European talent, but even then he overrated what is was at the time and his insistence on how great Kukoc was alienated the current Bulls players. Weird thing was he didn't really go back to that, he took Dragan Tarlac a few years later but that didn't work out.

[Jcool0]

Some probably knew that Krause was going to be a failure at rebuilding with so many bad draft picks during his time when the dynasty was going. Also I don't think it made him look good when Thorn took over the nets and turned them from a lottery team to back to back finals appearances in his first 2 years being in charge of them. I'm sure Jordan reminded Krause on a daily basis that he wasn't the one who drafted him and that had to get under his skin.

Why was Thorn fired? It's so long ago that I don't remember.

You'd think that drafting Jordan would give a GM some leeway for awhile.

Who knows? Thorn and Jordan always seemed to have a good relationship. Thorn I believe was in charge of the dream team recruiting in 92 also.

Reinsdorf emphasized he was making the change because of a need to start fresh.

'One of the most difficult things is that I personally like Rod. If I had disliked him, it would be a lot easier,' Reinsdorf said.

But all Reinsdorf, a real estate magnate, had to do was look at the ledger sheet and find that someone had to go.

In the seven years Thorn served as general manager, the club made the playoffs once. He had hired and fired five different coaches if you don't include his own stint after he had dismissed Jerry Sloan in 1981.

The coaching revolving door was probably Thorn's Achilles heel. He had brought in Larry Costello in 1978 at a time when everyone had believed Sloan was the logical -- and popular -- choice.

Costello didn't work out and Sloan was brought in, bringing Chicago its only playoff appearance during Thorn's tenure. But the team slumped badly in 1982 and Sloan was out, replaced by Thorn, before the Bulls' GM recruited Paul Westhead.

Westhead, who had guided the Los Angeles Lakers to the world's championship before he got into a run-in with Magic Johnson, turned out to be a disaster. On top of it, he didn't get along with Thorn.

Finally, Thorn was able to bring in the person he probably would have most liked to have had all the time, friend Kevin Loughery.

Trading was also not a Thorn strongpoint. He shipped Artis Gilmore, the lanky 7-foot-2 center, to San Antonio for Dave Corzine and Mark Olberding in 1982. The Bulls have never gotten a center to replace Gilmore; Olberding has been traded and Corzine is roundly booed by victory-hungry fans at the Stadium.

Published reports indicate it was more the trades he didn't or couldn't make because of executive agreement that also hurt. Reportedly, he could have gotten much more for guard Reggie Theus than Steve Johnson of Kansas City had there been action sooner last season. Reportedly, he also could have gotten Houston's Rodney McCray in another deal.

Thorn was high-fiving Loughery when the Bulls got three first round draft picks in 1983 through some shrewd dealing, but the trio of Ennis Whatley, Sidney Green and Mitchell Wiggins produced only more mediocrity.

It is to Thorn's credit that he resisted the temptation of taking a center and opting for Michael Jordan in the 1984 draft.

The setting would have then been perfect. His friend, Loughery, as coach; a single owner with a proven track record, Reinsdorf as owner and a blooming superstar, Michael Jordan, running the club.

However, Chicago's less than spectecular record again this season was probably all the fuel Reinsdorf needed to shatter Thorn's hopes.

'The bottom line is the record and you have to look at ours,' Thorn said. 'I guess that's what it is all about.'

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1985/04/06/Thorn-Loses-Bulls-Job-After-6-year-Struggle/6172481611600/

[Dan Z]

Some probably knew that Krause was going to be a failure at rebuilding with so many bad draft picks during his time when the dynasty was going. Also I don't think it made him look good when Thorn took over the nets and turned them from a lottery team to back to back finals appearances in his first 2 years being in charge of them. I'm sure Jordan reminded Krause on a daily basis that he wasn't the one who drafted him and that had to get under his skin.

Why was Thorn fired? It's so long ago that I don't remember.

You'd think that drafting Jordan would give a GM some leeway for awhile.

Who knows? Thorn and Jordan always seemed to have a good relationship. Thorn I believe was in charge of the dream team recruiting in 92 also.

I looked it up on Wikipedia. He was fired because Reinsdorf had recently bought the team and wanted to put in his own guy (Krause).

It ultimately worked out, but who knows what may have happened if Thorn kept the job...?

[Dan Z]

Why was Thorn fired? It's so long ago that I don't remember.

You'd think that drafting Jordan would give a GM some leeway for awhile.

Who knows? Thorn and Jordan always seemed to have a good relationship. Thorn I believe was in charge of the dream team recruiting in 92 also.

"Reinsdorf emphasized he was making the change because of a need to start fresh.

'One of the most difficult things is that I personally like Rod. If I had disliked him, it would be a lot easier,' Reinsdorf said."

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1985/04/06/Thorn-Loses-Bulls-Job-After-6-year-Struggle/6172481611600/

You'd think that replacing him with a baseball scout wouldn't be a good move, but it worked out in the end (not perfectly...as per other posts in this thread).

EDIT: I'd like to add...thinking that a baseball scout should replace the guy who drafted Jordan is odd. Imagine if something like that happened today?

[Jcool0]

Who knows? Thorn and Jordan always seemed to have a good relationship. Thorn I believe was in charge of the dream team recruiting in 92 also.

"Reinsdorf emphasized he was making the change because of a need to start fresh.

'One of the most difficult things is that I personally like Rod. If I had disliked him, it would be a lot easier,' Reinsdorf said."

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1985/04/06/Thorn-Loses-Bulls-Job-After-6-year-Struggle/6172481611600/

You'd think that replacing him with a baseball scout wouldn't be a good move, but it worked out in the end (not perfectly...as per other posts in this thread).

He got his start as a scout with the Bullets.

[Dan Z]

"Reinsdorf emphasized he was making the change because of a need to start fresh.

'One of the most difficult things is that I personally like Rod. If I had disliked him, it would be a lot easier,' Reinsdorf said."

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1985/04/06/Thorn-Loses-Bulls-Job-After-6-year-Struggle/6172481611600/

You'd think that replacing him with a baseball scout wouldn't be a good move, but it worked out in the end (not perfectly...as per other posts in this thread).

He got his start as a scout with the Bullets.

Okay, that makes more sense.

[prolific passer]

Why was Thorn fired? It's so long ago that I don't remember.

You'd think that drafting Jordan would give a GM some leeway for awhile.

Who knows? Thorn and Jordan always seemed to have a good relationship. Thorn I believe was in charge of the dream team recruiting in 92 also.

I looked it up on Wikipedia. He was fired because Reinsdorf had recently bought the team and wanted to put in his own guy (Krause).

It ultimately worked out, but who knows what may have happened if Thorn kept the job...?

I kind of figured it was something like that. Getting rid of Thorn is a big what if in bulls history.

[Jcool0]

You'd think that replacing him with a baseball scout wouldn't be a good move, but it worked out in the end (not perfectly...as per other posts in this thread).

He got his start as a scout with the Bullets.

Okay, that makes more sense.

It was there he met Phil Jackson. He wanted the Bullets to draft him but they didnt.