Ayo Dosunmu has leveled up

[erlim]

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This is impressive. Hes embracing his ability on fastbreaks. Could be the key to him unlocking his game.

That's incredibly impressive, especially considering his minutes and usage are lower than those guys. If we end this season feeling like we have our backcourt of the future that's a pretty significant development in this season.

I knew he liked running for outlets, but this is nuts. Coby and Ayo are pretty solid parts that can handle themselves well on both sides of the floor; Gordon and Hinrich aren't bad comparisons -- I'd actually take Coby over BG. Less pure scoring but far less of a defensive liability. But yeah, if those guys are set, you still need some all NBA guys like Rose and Noah briefly were. And as I've said before, Luol Deng PWill is not.

[sco]

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This is impressive. Hes embracing his ability on fastbreaks. Could be the key to him unlocking his game.

Totally agree. Ayo's # strength has been scoring in transition. I've been screaming this here for the past 2 season, glad someone finally got the idea in his head. I think Ayo is quick to defer to others. Like Coby, with Zach out, the shots are there for the taking and these guys are figuring that out. He should be doing this 3-5 times a game, but I also think he loses confidence when he gets blocked or misses.

Adding 3's has been great because it gives him a bigger role in the half court, which wasn't previously true.

[othawhitemeat]

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This is impressive. Hes embracing his ability on fastbreaks. Could be the key to him unlocking his game.

Totally agree. Ayo's # strength has been scoring in transition. I've been screaming this here for the past 2 season, glad someone finally got the idea in his head. I think Ayo is quick to defer to others. Like Coby, with Zach out, the shots are there for the taking and these guys are figuring that out. He should be doing this 3-5 times a game, but I also think he loses confidence when he gets blocked or misses.

Adding 3's has been great because it gives him a bigger role in the half court, which wasn't previously true.

If Ayo continues to grow in assertiveness, he still has a mid-range game that he has not fully tapped into. It is kind of hard for him to utilize with DeMar as mid-range king, but he has that in him. He has a killer crossover that he can use and I hope he shows more of. The dude just needs to be more assertive.

[GoBlue72391]

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This is impressive. Hes embracing his ability on fastbreaks. Could be the key to him unlocking his game.

He's getting a ton of fast break points and hitting his threes at over 40%, albeit on low volume. Those are the most efficient shots in the game.

Hopefully, he can find a way to increase his 3PA, because even per 36 he's only attempting 4.7 per game.

It's interesting that two of our young players, Ayo and Pat, are high-percentage 3-point shooters but both have low volume. I'm far more inclined to believe that Ayo will be able to increase his volume while maintaining his percentage because his is release quicker and more compact than Pat's.

[Stratmaster]

Is it time to compare Coby and Ayo vs. Gordon and Hinrich?

Do you think they can surpass that duo? Honestly, Coby is already looking like he's going to be a more complete player than Gordon. Ayo has all the tools to become a more complete player than Hinrich as well. Especially with that improved shot.

I kind of like this comparison

I mean Coby is already better than either BG or Kirk ever were, and Ayo is improving so surprisingly quickly that he might be better than them as well later on.

Hard to assess the impact of that though, because players are just generally better these days IMO. Skill level has really increased in this league in the last 15 years since they were relevant.

Coby hasn't even been playing better than Ayo lately.

No way he is better overall than Hinrich.

I would agree on Gordon.

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[League Circles]

I kind of like this comparison

I mean Coby is already better than either BG or Kirk ever were, and Ayo is improving so surprisingly quickly that he might be better than them as well later on.

Hard to assess the impact of that though, because players are just generally better these days IMO. Skill level has really increased in this league in the last 15 years since they were relevant.

Coby hasn't even been playing better than Ayo lately.

No way he is better overall than Hinrich.

I would agree on Gordon.

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To each their own I guess. I thought Kirk was a very overrated Bull. I can't even begin to imagine what makes you think Kirk was better than Coby. The difference between them on offense is larger (with Coby better) than the difference on defense (with Kirk better, at least on opposing SGs who is mostly who he guarded).

Coby and Ayo have both been playing great in February in similar minutes. Coby scoring and rebounding more, Ayo somewhat more efficient. I think assists about the same.

[FriedRise]

I mean Coby is already better than either BG or Kirk ever were, and Ayo is improving so surprisingly quickly that he might be better than them as well later on.

Hard to assess the impact of that though, because players are just generally better these days IMO. Skill level has really increased in this league in the last 15 years since they were relevant.

Coby hasn't even been playing better than Ayo lately.

No way he is better overall than Hinrich.

I would agree on Gordon.

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To each their own I guess. I thought Kirk was a very overrated Bull. I can't even begin to imagine what makes you think Kirk was better than Coby. The difference between them on offense is larger (with Coby better) than the difference on defense (with Kirk better, at least on opposing SGs who is mostly who he guarded).

Coby and Ayo have both been playing great in February in similar minutes. Coby scoring and rebounding more, Ayo somewhat more efficient. I think assists about the same.

For the rest of the season, Ayo should be able to eat as much as he wants. Teams are putting their best defender on Coby, and their second best defender on DeMar, so Ayo typically gets covered by that one guy that teams are trying to hide on defense. The opportunity will always be there for him, it'll be up to him if he wants to take it or pass.

[GoBlue72391]

I mean Coby is already better than either BG or Kirk ever were, and Ayo is improving so surprisingly quickly that he might be better than them as well later on.

Hard to assess the impact of that though, because players are just generally better these days IMO. Skill level has really increased in this league in the last 15 years since they were relevant.

Coby hasn't even been playing better than Ayo lately.

No way he is better overall than Hinrich.

I would agree on Gordon.

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To each their own I guess. I thought Kirk was a very overrated Bull. I can't even begin to imagine what makes you think Kirk was better than Coby. The difference between them on offense is larger (with Coby better) than the difference on defense (with Kirk better, at least on opposing SGs who is mostly who he guarded).

Coby and Ayo have both been playing great in February in similar minutes. Coby scoring and rebounding more, Ayo somewhat more efficient. I think assists about the same.

Coby is clearly the better offensive player, while Kirk was clearly the better defensive player. I would say Kirk's defense was better than Coby's offense is right now, but defense is less important than offense and Coby hasn't even reached his ceiling yet.

I would lean towards Kirk and Gordon as of now because they were battle-tested in the playoffs including sweeping the defending champion Heat while this current group is struggling to reach .500 in the regular season but again, Coby and Ayo are just starting to scratch the surface.

[Stratmaster]

Coby hasn't even been playing better than Ayo lately.

No way he is better overall than Hinrich.

I would agree on Gordon.

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To each their own I guess. I thought Kirk was a very overrated Bull. I can't even begin to imagine what makes you think Kirk was better than Coby. The difference between them on offense is larger (with Coby better) than the difference on defense (with Kirk better, at least on opposing SGs who is mostly who he guarded).

Coby and Ayo have both been playing great in February in similar minutes. Coby scoring and rebounding more, Ayo somewhat more efficient. I think assists about the same.

Coby is clearly the better offensive player, while Kirk was clearly the better defensive player. I would say Kirk's defense was better than Coby's offense is right now, but defense is less important than offense and Coby hasn't even reached his ceiling yet.

I would lean towards Kirk and Gordon as of now because they were battle-tested in the playoffs including sweeping the defending champion Heat while this current group is struggling to reach .500 in the regular season but again, Coby and Ayo are just starting to scratch the surface.

I think we come to the same conclusion. I would say that I don't necessarily agree that we haven't seen Coby's ceiling. I mean, sure all players can work on facets of the game and show improvement. I don't see any dramatic leaps coming. We have seen him play to the ceiling of his physical talents. The hope for Coby is that he can play near his ceiling consistently, not just in small streaks of games. By offense, if you mean pure scoring, he is definitely better than Kirk. If you mean shooting, it's a wash. If you mean facilitating, Hinrich was better than Coby to date. Coby is slightly better at grabbing rebounds. Kirk was WAY, WAY better defensively. There is no comparison defensively.

[League Circles]

To each their own I guess. I thought Kirk was a very overrated Bull. I can't even begin to imagine what makes you think Kirk was better than Coby. The difference between them on offense is larger (with Coby better) than the difference on defense (with Kirk better, at least on opposing SGs who is mostly who he guarded).

Coby and Ayo have both been playing great in February in similar minutes. Coby scoring and rebounding more, Ayo somewhat more efficient. I think assists about the same.

Coby is clearly the better offensive player, while Kirk was clearly the better defensive player. I would say Kirk's defense was better than Coby's offense is right now, but defense is less important than offense and Coby hasn't even reached his ceiling yet.

I would lean towards Kirk and Gordon as of now because they were battle-tested in the playoffs including sweeping the defending champion Heat while this current group is struggling to reach .500 in the regular season but again, Coby and Ayo are just starting to scratch the surface.

I think we come to the same conclusion. I would say that I don't necessarily agree that we haven't seen Coby's ceiling. I mean, sure all players can work on facets of the game and show improvement. I don't see any dramatic leaps coming. We have seen him play to the ceiling of his physical talents. The hope for Coby is that he can play near his ceiling consistently, not just in small streaks of games. By offense, if you mean pure scoring, he is definitely better than Kirk. If you mean shooting, it's a wash. If you mean facilitating, Hinrich was better than Coby to date. Coby is slightly better at grabbing rebounds. Kirk was WAY, WAY better defensively. There is no comparison defensively.

Coby is a way better shooter than Kirk was. IMO he's better at setting up others for good shots, even though Kirk got more assists. Kirk fouled more, turned the ball over more, and although Kirk was a better defender, I'm not so sure that Coby isn't better against opposing PGs (Kirk more often defended the 2 spot). Also worth noting that Colby is basically the same age now that Kirk was when he entered the league. As two of our many #7 picks, I think Coby is easily better than Kirk ever was.

[GoBlue72391]

Coby is clearly the better offensive player, while Kirk was clearly the better defensive player. I would say Kirk's defense was better than Coby's offense is right now, but defense is less important than offense and Coby hasn't even reached his ceiling yet.

I would lean towards Kirk and Gordon as of now because they were battle-tested in the playoffs including sweeping the defending champion Heat while this current group is struggling to reach .500 in the regular season but again, Coby and Ayo are just starting to scratch the surface.

I think we come to the same conclusion. I would say that I don't necessarily agree that we haven't seen Coby's ceiling. I mean, sure all players can work on facets of the game and show improvement. I don't see any dramatic leaps coming. We have seen him play to the ceiling of his physical talents. The hope for Coby is that he can play near his ceiling consistently, not just in small streaks of games. By offense, if you mean pure scoring, he is definitely better than Kirk. If you mean shooting, it's a wash. If you mean facilitating, Hinrich was better than Coby to date. Coby is slightly better at grabbing rebounds. Kirk was WAY, WAY better defensively. There is no comparison defensively.

...although Kirk was a better defender, I'm not so sure that Coby isn't better against opposing PGs...

No. Just no.

Kirk was one of the best guard defenders of the 2000s. The only player on the current roster who should even be mentioned in the same breath defensively is Caruso.

[League Circles]

I think we come to the same conclusion. I would say that I don't necessarily agree that we haven't seen Coby's ceiling. I mean, sure all players can work on facets of the game and show improvement. I don't see any dramatic leaps coming. We have seen him play to the ceiling of his physical talents. The hope for Coby is that he can play near his ceiling consistently, not just in small streaks of games. By offense, if you mean pure scoring, he is definitely better than Kirk. If you mean shooting, it's a wash. If you mean facilitating, Hinrich was better than Coby to date. Coby is slightly better at grabbing rebounds. Kirk was WAY, WAY better defensively. There is no comparison defensively.

...although Kirk was a better defender, I'm not so sure that Coby isn't better against opposing PGs...

No. Just no.

Kirk was one of the best guard defenders of the 2000s. The only player on the current roster who should even be mentioned in the same breath defensively is Caruso.

Kirk rarely guarded PGs at least in his prime with us (usually was Duhon or BG guarding the 1). When he did he often gave up big scoring nights to quicker PGs that could get past him pretty well.

Kirk was a strong, versatile defender but Caruso is way better and I'd also rather have Craig, Williams though that's a different position. Ball also when healthy was actually definitely better than Kirk on D.

[GoBlue72391]

...although Kirk was a better defender, I'm not so sure that Coby isn't better against opposing PGs...

No. Just no.

Kirk was one of the best guard defenders of the 2000s. The only player on the current roster who should even be mentioned in the same breath defensively is Caruso.

Kirk rarely guarded PGs at least in his prime with us (usually was Duhon or BG guarding the 1). When he did he often gave up big scoring nights to quicker PGs that could get past him pretty well.

Kirk was a strong, versatile defender but Caruso is way better and I'd also rather have Craig, Williams though that's a different position. Ball also when healthy was actually definitely better than Kirk on D.

Kirk usually guarded whoever was the better opposing PG/SG when he started alongside Gordon, because Gordon was a weak defender. Duhon was a good defender but only 6'1", so it makes sense why he would guard the PGs when they started together.

So Kirk "rarely" guarding PGs was to cover for his backcourt mate's weaknesses (Gordon's bad defense, Duhon too small to guard SGs), not due to a lack of ability.

You think Torrey Craig and Patrick Williams are better defenders than Kirk was? That's honestly hilarious. I'll concede Ball is in the discussion same as Caruso is, but I didn't even think of him because he's basically retired at this point.

[Stratmaster]

Coby is clearly the better offensive player, while Kirk was clearly the better defensive player. I would say Kirk's defense was better than Coby's offense is right now, but defense is less important than offense and Coby hasn't even reached his ceiling yet.

I would lean towards Kirk and Gordon as of now because they were battle-tested in the playoffs including sweeping the defending champion Heat while this current group is struggling to reach .500 in the regular season but again, Coby and Ayo are just starting to scratch the surface.

I think we come to the same conclusion. I would say that I don't necessarily agree that we haven't seen Coby's ceiling. I mean, sure all players can work on facets of the game and show improvement. I don't see any dramatic leaps coming. We have seen him play to the ceiling of his physical talents. The hope for Coby is that he can play near his ceiling consistently, not just in small streaks of games. By offense, if you mean pure scoring, he is definitely better than Kirk. If you mean shooting, it's a wash. If you mean facilitating, Hinrich was better than Coby to date. Coby is slightly better at grabbing rebounds. Kirk was WAY, WAY better defensively. There is no comparison defensively.

Coby is a way better shooter than Kirk was. IMO he's better at setting up others for good shots, even though Kirk got more assists. Kirk fouled more, turned the ball over more, and although Kirk was a better defender, I'm not so sure that Coby isn't better against opposing PGs (Kirk more often defended the 2 spot). Also worth noting that Colby is basically the same age now that Kirk was when he entered the league. As two of our many #7 picks, I think Coby is easily better than Kirk ever was.

We will respectfully disagree then.

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[Stratmaster]

Coby is clearly the better offensive player, while Kirk was clearly the better defensive player. I would say Kirk's defense was better than Coby's offense is right now, but defense is less important than offense and Coby hasn't even reached his ceiling yet.

I would lean towards Kirk and Gordon as of now because they were battle-tested in the playoffs including sweeping the defending champion Heat while this current group is struggling to reach .500 in the regular season but again, Coby and Ayo are just starting to scratch the surface.

I think we come to the same conclusion. I would say that I don't necessarily agree that we haven't seen Coby's ceiling. I mean, sure all players can work on facets of the game and show improvement. I don't see any dramatic leaps coming. We have seen him play to the ceiling of his physical talents. The hope for Coby is that he can play near his ceiling consistently, not just in small streaks of games. By offense, if you mean pure scoring, he is definitely better than Kirk. If you mean shooting, it's a wash. If you mean facilitating, Hinrich was better than Coby to date. Coby is slightly better at grabbing rebounds. Kirk was WAY, WAY better defensively. There is no comparison defensively.

Coby is a way better shooter than Kirk was. IMO he's better at setting up others for good shots, even though Kirk got more assists. Kirk fouled more, turned the ball over more, and although Kirk was a better defender, I'm not so sure that Coby isn't better against opposing PGs (Kirk more often defended the 2 spot). Also worth noting that Colby is basically the same age now that Kirk was when he entered the league. As two of our many #7 picks, I think Coby is easily better than Kirk ever was.

By the way. This is Coby's best shooting season. He just dropped under 39% from 3. Hinrich had 8 seasons where he shot 39% or better.

How is Coby a way better shooter? I can't wait to hear this.

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[Stratmaster]

...although Kirk was a better defender, I'm not so sure that Coby isn't better against opposing PGs...

No. Just no.

Kirk was one of the best guard defenders of the 2000s. The only player on the current roster who should even be mentioned in the same breath defensively is Caruso.

Kirk rarely guarded PGs at least in his prime with us (usually was Duhon or BG guarding the 1). When he did he often gave up big scoring nights to quicker PGs that could get past him pretty well.

Kirk was a strong, versatile defender but Caruso is way better and I'd also rather have Craig, Williams though that's a different position. Ball also when healthy was actually definitely better than Kirk on D.

Wait. So now you conveniently are comparing Caruso instead of white. Good one.

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[League Circles]

I think we come to the same conclusion. I would say that I don't necessarily agree that we haven't seen Coby's ceiling. I mean, sure all players can work on facets of the game and show improvement. I don't see any dramatic leaps coming. We have seen him play to the ceiling of his physical talents. The hope for Coby is that he can play near his ceiling consistently, not just in small streaks of games. By offense, if you mean pure scoring, he is definitely better than Kirk. If you mean shooting, it's a wash. If you mean facilitating, Hinrich was better than Coby to date. Coby is slightly better at grabbing rebounds. Kirk was WAY, WAY better defensively. There is no comparison defensively.

Coby is a way better shooter than Kirk was. IMO he's better at setting up others for good shots, even though Kirk got more assists. Kirk fouled more, turned the ball over more, and although Kirk was a better defender, I'm not so sure that Coby isn't better against opposing PGs (Kirk more often defended the 2 spot). Also worth noting that Colby is basically the same age now that Kirk was when he entered the league. As two of our many #7 picks, I think Coby is easily better than Kirk ever was.

By the way. This is Coby's best shooting season. He just dropped under 39% from 3. Hinrich had 8 seasons where he shot 39% or better.

How is Coby a way better shooter? I can't wait to hear this.

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Well I'm not necessarily comparing Coby's full career to Kirk's considering Cony entered the league about 4 years younger and Kirk never improved a lot after his first 2-3 years, but yeah, Kirk had slightly higher 3pt%, but on way lower volume. But that's just one facet of shooting. Compare their TS% and eFG%. Coby is the clear winner, and that's roughly just comparing Coby from age 19-23 vs Kirk from 23-27 or whatever, which benefits Kirk of course, and yet he was still clearly the inferior shooter. Kirk was the original 3 and D guard. He really wasn't a scoring threat or efficient inside the arc, whereas Coby is a shooting threat anywhere and everywhere inside 25 feet.

[League Circles]

No. Just no.

Kirk was one of the best guard defenders of the 2000s. The only player on the current roster who should even be mentioned in the same breath defensively is Caruso.

Kirk rarely guarded PGs at least in his prime with us (usually was Duhon or BG guarding the 1). When he did he often gave up big scoring nights to quicker PGs that could get past him pretty well.

Kirk was a strong, versatile defender but Caruso is way better and I'd also rather have Craig, Williams though that's a different position. Ball also when healthy was actually definitely better than Kirk on D.

Wait. So now you conveniently are comparing Caruso instead of white. Good one.

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Umm, I didn't bring up Caruso, I responded to him being brought up. Sometimes people segue into related topics in conversation.

[Stratmaster]

Coby is a way better shooter than Kirk was. IMO he's better at setting up others for good shots, even though Kirk got more assists. Kirk fouled more, turned the ball over more, and although Kirk was a better defender, I'm not so sure that Coby isn't better against opposing PGs (Kirk more often defended the 2 spot). Also worth noting that Colby is basically the same age now that Kirk was when he entered the league. As two of our many #7 picks, I think Coby is easily better than Kirk ever was.

By the way. This is Coby's best shooting season. He just dropped under 39% from 3. Hinrich had 8 seasons where he shot 39% or better.

How is Coby a way better shooter? I can't wait to hear this.

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Well I'm not necessarily comparing Coby's full career to Kirk's considering Cony entered the league about 4 years younger and Kirk never improved a lot after his first 2-3 years, but yeah, Kirk had slightly higher 3pt%, but on way lower volume. But that's just one facet of shooting. Compare their TS% and eFG%. Coby is the clear winner, and that's roughly just comparing Coby from age 19-23 vs Kirk from 23-27 or whatever, which benefits Kirk of course, and yet he was still clearly the inferior shooter. Kirk was the original 3 and D guard. He really wasn't a scoring threat or efficient inside the arc, whereas Coby is a shooting threat anywhere and everywhere inside 25 feet.

Maybe you should re-read what I said. I said Shooting was a wash, but Coby is a better overall scorer.

You said Coby is a way better shooter. When proven wrong you stated my position as if it was yours.

Hinrich shot over 39% from 3 at the age of 30, 32... and shot .387 at the age of 35.

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[Stratmaster]

Kirk rarely guarded PGs at least in his prime with us (usually was Duhon or BG guarding the 1). When he did he often gave up big scoring nights to quicker PGs that could get past him pretty well.

Kirk was a strong, versatile defender but Caruso is way better and I'd also rather have Craig, Williams though that's a different position. Ball also when healthy was actually definitely better than Kirk on D.

Wait. So now you conveniently are comparing Caruso instead of white. Good one.

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Umm, I didn't bring up Caruso, I responded to him being brought up. Sometimes people segue into related topics in conversation.

Yes. Caruso was brought up as the only guy worthy of comparison with Hinrich. At which point you said Caruso was better... and added Craig and Williams which is a joke.

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