Ayo Dosunmu has leveled up

[League Circles]

By the way. This is Coby's best shooting season. He just dropped under 39% from 3. Hinrich had 8 seasons where he shot 39% or better.

How is Coby a way better shooter? I can't wait to hear this.

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Well I'm not necessarily comparing Coby's full career to Kirk's considering Cony entered the league about 4 years younger and Kirk never improved a lot after his first 2-3 years, but yeah, Kirk had slightly higher 3pt%, but on way lower volume. But that's just one facet of shooting. Compare their TS% and eFG%. Coby is the clear winner, and that's roughly just comparing Coby from age 19-23 vs Kirk from 23-27 or whatever, which benefits Kirk of course, and yet he was still clearly the inferior shooter. Kirk was the original 3 and D guard. He really wasn't a scoring threat or efficient inside the arc, whereas Coby is a shooting threat anywhere and everywhere inside 25 feet.

Maybe you should re-read what I said. I said Shooting was a wash, but Coby is a better overall scorer.

You said Coby is a way better shooter. When proven wrong you stated my position as if it was yours.

Hinrich shot over 39% from 3 at the age of 30, 32... and shot .387 at the age of 35.

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You might want to read up on TRUE shooting percentage, and EFFECTIVE field goal percentage. Then use those metrics to understand why Coby is a better shooter. By the way, Patrick Williams and Ayo both shot better from 3 this year, AND on higher volume, than Kirk averaged with the Bulls. But they're not nearly at the volume Coby is. The lower your volume the less your 3pt% means because it indicates that you're taking more open, easy shots. Keith Bogans shot a good 3pt% on low volume. Didn't make him a good shooter.

[Stratmaster]

Well I'm not necessarily comparing Coby's full career to Kirk's considering Cony entered the league about 4 years younger and Kirk never improved a lot after his first 2-3 years, but yeah, Kirk had slightly higher 3pt%, but on way lower volume. But that's just one facet of shooting. Compare their TS% and eFG%. Coby is the clear winner, and that's roughly just comparing Coby from age 19-23 vs Kirk from 23-27 or whatever, which benefits Kirk of course, and yet he was still clearly the inferior shooter. Kirk was the original 3 and D guard. He really wasn't a scoring threat or efficient inside the arc, whereas Coby is a shooting threat anywhere and everywhere inside 25 feet.

Maybe you should re-read what I said. I said Shooting was a wash, but Coby is a better overall scorer.

You said Coby is a way better shooter. When proven wrong you stated my position as if it was yours.

Hinrich shot over 39% from 3 at the age of 30, 32... and shot .387 at the age of 35.

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You might want to read up on TRUE shooting percentage, and EFFECTIVE field goal percentage. Then use those metrics to understand why Coby is a better shooter. By the way, Patrick Williams and Ayo both shot better from 3 this year, AND on higher volume, than Kirk averaged with the Bulls. But they're not nearly at the volume Coby is. The lower your volume the less your 3pt% means because it indicates that you're taking more open, easy shots. Keith Bogans shot a good 3pt% on low volume. Didn't make him a good shooter.

Keep moving the goalposts, buddy. But stop the condescending BS about me reading up. You got nothing to teach me son.

Again, you aren't even disagreeing with me on the shooting/scoring. And the Craig and Williams comments were about defense.

P.s. As Coby's volume is increasing his percentage is dropping like a bomb. He had a great 1/3 season stretch. You're translating it to a career.

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[League Circles]

Maybe you should re-read what I said. I said Shooting was a wash, but Coby is a better overall scorer.

You said Coby is a way better shooter. When proven wrong you stated my position as if it was yours.

Hinrich shot over 39% from 3 at the age of 30, 32... and shot .387 at the age of 35.

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You might want to read up on TRUE shooting percentage, and EFFECTIVE field goal percentage. Then use those metrics to understand why Coby is a better shooter. By the way, Patrick Williams and Ayo both shot better from 3 this year, AND on higher volume, than Kirk averaged with the Bulls. But they're not nearly at the volume Coby is. The lower your volume the less your 3pt% means because it indicates that you're taking more open, easy shots. Keith Bogans shot a good 3pt% on low volume. Didn't make him a good shooter.

Keep moving the goalposts, buddy. But stop the condescending BS about me reading up. You got nothing to teach me son.

Again, you aren't even disagreeing with me on the shooting/scoring. And the Craig and Williams comments were about defense.

P.s. As Coby's volume is increasing his percentage is dropping like a bomb. He had a great 1/3 season stretch. You're translating it to a career.

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LOL, Kirk Hinrich had a lower eFG% in every single season of his career than Coby has for his career average and each of the last 3 seasons. This is despite Coby currently being one year older than Kirk was when he entered the league. It's almost the same story with TS%. But if you insist on sticking to the stubborn, wildly oversimplified claim that better 3pt% alone = "better shooter" (which has been the entirety of your argument), sure, that means you also believe Patrick Williams was a "better shooter" last year than Steph Curry is this year. And that he and Ayo are right on his trail this year.

[Stratmaster]

You might want to read up on TRUE shooting percentage, and EFFECTIVE field goal percentage. Then use those metrics to understand why Coby is a better shooter. By the way, Patrick Williams and Ayo both shot better from 3 this year, AND on higher volume, than Kirk averaged with the Bulls. But they're not nearly at the volume Coby is. The lower your volume the less your 3pt% means because it indicates that you're taking more open, easy shots. Keith Bogans shot a good 3pt% on low volume. Didn't make him a good shooter.

Keep moving the goalposts, buddy. But stop the condescending BS about me reading up. You got nothing to teach me son.

Again, you aren't even disagreeing with me on the shooting/scoring. And the Craig and Williams comments were about defense.

P.s. As Coby's volume is increasing his percentage is dropping like a bomb. He had a great 1/3 season stretch. You're translating it to a career.

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LOL, Kirk Hinrich had a lower eFG% in every single season of his career than Coby has for his career average and each of the last 3 seasons. This is despite Coby currently being one year older than Kirk was when he entered the league. It's almost the same story with TS%. But if you insist on sticking to the stubborn, wildly oversimplified claim that better 3pt% alone = "better shooter" (which has been the entirety of your argument), sure, that means you also believe Patrick Williams was a "better shooter" last year than Steph Curry is this year. And that he and Ayo are right on his trail this year.

Lol. You never know when to quit, do you. Do you consider making layups better, or more often, being a better shooter? Or a better "scorer"? If you are unwilling to acknowledge the distinction I made in my original post between the two, then please stop responding. So lets dig in:

24% of Coby White's shots this season are from 0-3' and he makes 63.3% of them. In his career, only 16% of Hinrich's shots were at the rim and he made 52.8% of them. Coby is the better SCORER.

Coby has made 38.3% of his 3's this season. Which, by the way, is no longer his best season to date as he shot 38.5% in 21-22. He will likely fall below 38% by the end of the season, meaning he will have 3 seasons out of 5 where he has shot 37% or better, with 1 season of 38% or better. Hinrich shot over 37% 6 out of his first 8 seasons and 8 out of his total 13 seasons. 6 of those seasons were over 38%. 5 of those seasons were over 39%. 3 of those were 40% or better. One of them was 41.5%. Hinrich was the better SHOOTER.

In his first 4 years Hinrich averaged 4.6 3 point attempts per game in an era where the 3 point shot wasn't as prevalent. In his first 4 seasons, Coby averaged 5.6 attempts. 1 more per game. In their first 4 seasons, Hinrich took 1454 3-point shots. Coby took 1527 3 point shots. Hinrich made 555 (38.2%). Coby made 560 (36.7%). And Coby White grew up in a sport where outside 3 point shooting shooting is the emphasis. In Hinrich's rookie season, the average team took 15 3-point shots per game. In Coby's rookie season, the average team took more than 32 3-point shots per game.

Let me recap. Coby is the better overall scorer. Hinrich was the better shooter. Might Coby somehow rack up those same kind of career numbers? Hey. Anything can happen.

Here are some more fun facts:
Assist percentage: Hinrich 25.7. Coby 18.6
Steal percentage: Hinrich 1.9, Coby 1.1
Block percentage: Hinrich 0.7, Coby 0.5
WS/48: Hinrich .093, Coby .065
Vorp: Hinrich 13.3, Coby 0.9
PER (for guesstimated offensive impact only): Hinricxh 12.8, Coby 12.8

[Chi town]

https://youtu.be/M5LVqKyb0wg?si=mKIzArQn9m5wrqwp

[Mk0]

https://youtu.be/M5LVqKyb0wg?si=mKIzArQn9m5wrqwp

That was a great watch
I really enjoyed them including Coby's post game hype w/ KC's deadpan "Coby we are doing an interview here"

[Chi town]

Love how training coach said our young guys have to be a scoring threat and just can’t keep passing it along.

AK preached player development and we are seeing two players really pop this season.

[Stratmaster]

Ayo was the one guy I enjoyed watching in the Bucks game. I love his demeanor on court this season. He actually is aware of what is going on in the game and responds appropriately.

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[Chi town]

Ayo was the one guy I enjoyed watching in the Bucks game. I love his demeanor on court this season. He actually is aware of what is going on in the game and responds appropriately.

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As in an elbow to the face of Beverley!

I think Ayo can be a solid starter. 2 way 3D. If he starts showing more in the half court he can be more.

[Stratmaster]

Ayo was the one guy I enjoyed watching in the Bucks game. I love his demeanor on court this season. He actually is aware of what is going on in the game and responds appropriately.

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As in an elbow to the face of Beverley!

I think Ayo can be a solid starter. 2 way 3D. If he starts showing more in the half court he can be more.

I think it has to be either or (Coby or Ayo) starting (assuming a true playoff caliber team is the goal; right now on this roster they both start). Most recently that would be Ayo. However, good Coby is a stud...so.... Either one of them is going to be a strong 6th man.

[Chi town]

Ayo was the one guy I enjoyed watching in the Bucks game. I love his demeanor on court this season. He actually is aware of what is going on in the game and responds appropriately.

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As in an elbow to the face of Beverley!

I think Ayo can be a solid starter. 2 way 3D. If he starts showing more in the half court he can be more.

I think it has to be either or (Coby or Ayo) starting (assuming a true playoff caliber team is the goal; right now on this roster they both start). Most recently that would be Ayo. However, good Coby is a stud...so.... Either one of them is going to be a strong 6th man.

Ayo is trending to be a 6 3s per game at 40% player. If he learns to do a little more off the dribble he could become a 8 3s per game player.

That is crazy valuable!!!

I’d like to see DDR walk this summer and have Zach replace him at SF. Have Ayo defend the better wing.

Have Pat be our 6th man and get a big PF with length.

[Stratmaster]

As in an elbow to the face of Beverley!

I think Ayo can be a solid starter. 2 way 3D. If he starts showing more in the half court he can be more.

I think it has to be either or (Coby or Ayo) starting (assuming a true playoff caliber team is the goal; right now on this roster they both start). Most recently that would be Ayo. However, good Coby is a stud...so.... Either one of them is going to be a strong 6th man.

Ayo is trending to be a 6 3s per game at 40% player. If he learns to do a little more off the dribble he could become a 8 3s per game player.

That is crazy valuable!!!

I’d like to see DDR walk this summer and have Zach replace him at SF. Have Ayo defend the better wing.

Have Pat be our 6th man and get a big PF with length.

Assuming no other additions I would be happy to see Ayo, Coby, Zach, Caruso, Drummond for a starting lineup next season. But it doesn't fix the size issues.

So I would rather see:

Ayo, Caruso, Zach, New Player, Drummond with Coby as 6th man. Or switch out Coby and Ayo.

Regardless, Caruso can't play 30+ minutes every night so Ayo, Coby and Zach would see significant minutes together.

Instead we will likely see Ayo, Coby, Caruso, Derozan and Vuc starting game 1 next season. Ayo and Coby will be running the floor alone with Vuc and Demar ball stopping them. Rinse and repeat.


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[League Circles]

I think it has to be either or (Coby or Ayo) starting (assuming a true playoff caliber team is the goal; right now on this roster they both start). Most recently that would be Ayo. However, good Coby is a stud...so.... Either one of them is going to be a strong 6th man.

Ayo is trending to be a 6 3s per game at 40% player. If he learns to do a little more off the dribble he could become a 8 3s per game player.

That is crazy valuable!!!

I’d like to see DDR walk this summer and have Zach replace him at SF. Have Ayo defend the better wing.

Have Pat be our 6th man and get a big PF with length.

Assuming no other additions I would be happy to see Ayo, Coby, Zach, Caruso, Drummond for a starting lineup next season. But it doesn't fix the size issues.

So I would rather see:

Ayo, Caruso, Zach, New Player, Drummond with Coby as 6th man. Or switch out Coby and Ayo.

Regardless, Caruso can't play 30+ minutes every night so Ayo, Coby and Zach would see significant minutes together.

Instead we will likely see Ayo, Coby, Caruso, Derozan and Vuc starting game 1 next season. Ayo and Coby will be running the floor alone with Vuc and Demar ball stopping them. Rinse and repeat.


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You think Zach will be traded this summer or not ready yet or benched?

[Stratmaster]

Ayo is trending to be a 6 3s per game at 40% player. If he learns to do a little more off the dribble he could become a 8 3s per game player.

That is crazy valuable!!!

I’d like to see DDR walk this summer and have Zach replace him at SF. Have Ayo defend the better wing.

Have Pat be our 6th man and get a big PF with length.

Assuming no other additions I would be happy to see Ayo, Coby, Zach, Caruso, Drummond for a starting lineup next season. But it doesn't fix the size issues.

So I would rather see:

Ayo, Caruso, Zach, New Player, Drummond with Coby as 6th man. Or switch out Coby and Ayo.

Regardless, Caruso can't play 30+ minutes every night so Ayo, Coby and Zach would see significant minutes together.

Instead we will likely see Ayo, Coby, Caruso, Derozan and Vuc starting game 1 next season. Ayo and Coby will be running the floor alone with Vuc and Demar ball stopping them. Rinse and repeat.


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You think Zach will be traded this summer or not ready yet or benched?

Actually, that is a good point. The lineup may include Zach by default because I don't see them getting anything of value in the off-season. They mismanaged his situation from the day they acquired Derozan; add in the foot surgery, and his value couldn't possibly be tanked any more than it has been.

He certainly should be ready to go by opening day unless he turns into another Lonzo situation. And if he is healthy, he certainly should start. When healthy, he is still the best talent, and right there, with Demar, as the best player.

Of course, the coach is Billy Donovan, so..... who knows.

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[League Circles]

Assuming no other additions I would be happy to see Ayo, Coby, Zach, Caruso, Drummond for a starting lineup next season. But it doesn't fix the size issues.

So I would rather see:

Ayo, Caruso, Zach, New Player, Drummond with Coby as 6th man. Or switch out Coby and Ayo.

Regardless, Caruso can't play 30+ minutes every night so Ayo, Coby and Zach would see significant minutes together.

Instead we will likely see Ayo, Coby, Caruso, Derozan and Vuc starting game 1 next season. Ayo and Coby will be running the floor alone with Vuc and Demar ball stopping them. Rinse and repeat.


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You think Zach will be traded this summer or not ready yet or benched?

Actually, that is a good point. The lineup may include Zach by default because I don't see them getting anything of value in the off-season. They mismanaged his situation from the day they acquired Derozan; add in the foot surgery, and his value couldn't possibly be tanked any more than it has been.

He certainly should be ready to go by opening day unless he turns into another Lonzo situation. And if he is healthy, he certainly should start. When healthy, he is still the best talent, and right there, with Demar, as the best player.

Of course, the coach is Billy Donovan, so..... who knows.

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Yeah I think there's a 90% chance that Zach is here, and starting, until at least a couple months into next season, but probably longer than that. If he doesn't return to his 2023-23 form, there probably won't be enough interest for the Bulls to want to make a deal (which was already the situation before he had surgery). And if he does return to that form, the Bulls will probably want to keep him indefinitely. The ambiguity sucks for us because I think if we were to know that Zach is staying indefinitely, I'd probably want to let Demar leave. But if Zach is traded for a better fitting piece or pieces (such as a real PF), then maybe it makes sense to keep Demar on a new contract. But we probably won't have any resolution to the situation with Zach by the time we need to decide on Demar.

[Stratmaster]

You think Zach will be traded this summer or not ready yet or benched?

Actually, that is a good point. The lineup may include Zach by default because I don't see them getting anything of value in the off-season. They mismanaged his situation from the day they acquired Derozan; add in the foot surgery, and his value couldn't possibly be tanked any more than it has been.

He certainly should be ready to go by opening day unless he turns into another Lonzo situation. And if he is healthy, he certainly should start. When healthy, he is still the best talent, and right there, with Demar, as the best player.

Of course, the coach is Billy Donovan, so..... who knows.

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Yeah I think there's a 90% chance that Zach is here, and starting, until at least a couple months into next season, but probably longer than that. If he doesn't return to his 2023-23 form, there probably won't be enough interest for the Bulls to want to make a deal (which was already the situation before he had surgery). And if he does return to that form, the Bulls will probably want to keep him indefinitely. The ambiguity sucks for us because I think if we were to know that Zach is staying indefinitely, I'd probably want to let Demar leave. But if Zach is traded for a better fitting piece or pieces (such as a real PF), then maybe it makes sense to keep Demar on a new contract. But we probably won't have any resolution to the situation with Zach by the time we need to decide on Demar.

As someone who thought Demar should have been traded before last season, then again at the 2023 trade deadline, then again before this season, then again at the 24 trade deadline... you know where I stand on Demar. But I understand you not wanting to be without both of them.

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[League Circles]

Actually, that is a good point. The lineup may include Zach by default because I don't see them getting anything of value in the off-season. They mismanaged his situation from the day they acquired Derozan; add in the foot surgery, and his value couldn't possibly be tanked any more than it has been.

He certainly should be ready to go by opening day unless he turns into another Lonzo situation. And if he is healthy, he certainly should start. When healthy, he is still the best talent, and right there, with Demar, as the best player.

Of course, the coach is Billy Donovan, so..... who knows.

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Yeah I think there's a 90% chance that Zach is here, and starting, until at least a couple months into next season, but probably longer than that. If he doesn't return to his 2023-23 form, there probably won't be enough interest for the Bulls to want to make a deal (which was already the situation before he had surgery). And if he does return to that form, the Bulls will probably want to keep him indefinitely. The ambiguity sucks for us because I think if we were to know that Zach is staying indefinitely, I'd probably want to let Demar leave. But if Zach is traded for a better fitting piece or pieces (such as a real PF), then maybe it makes sense to keep Demar on a new contract. But we probably won't have any resolution to the situation with Zach by the time we need to decide on Demar.

As someone who thought Demar should have been traded before last season, then again at the 2023 trade deadline, then again before this season, then again at the 24 trade deadline... you know where I stand on Demar. But I understand you not wanting to be without both of them.

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It's not that I think either is crucial to anything, but I'm not optimistic that they can figure out how to be effective together, and we have to decide on Demar either way as a free agent, so I'd really like to either trade Zach before free agency or trade Vuc and boost the defense, and if both of those fail, let Demar walk.

[nekorajo]

I know Ayo has leveled up, but I'm still not convinced that he should be relied on as a starter. He still makes blunders that you don't expect from a pro. Against the Jazz, he airballed open 3s back to back. Who else does that? He also fumbled Caruso's pass when they had a 2 on 1 break in clutch time. Also, clutch time in Sacramento, Coby had to chase down a loose ball that Ayo almost threw away.

There's no doubt that Ayo is outplaying his contract, as I predicted, but is he built for the biggest moments?

[DuckIII]

I know Ayo has leveled up, but I'm still not convinced that he should be relied on as a starter. He still makes blunders that you don't expect from a pro. Against the Jazz, he airballed open 3s back to back. Who else does that?

Evidently even guys who are shooting 40% from 3 on 5 attempts per 36. Would your analysis be different if he had grazed the rim?

He also fumbled Caruso's pass when they had a 2 on 1 break in clutch time. Also, clutch time in Sacramento, Coby had to chase down a loose ball that Ayo almost threw away.

There's no doubt that Ayo is outplaying his contract, as I predicted, but is he built for the biggest moments?

Yeah, but you can do this with almost every player. I could make a highlight reel of DDR making atrocious plays in the 4th quarter from this year alone (like his pass into the void during a crucial possession in last night’s game because he forced a drive that wasn’t there). And despite that, DDR is one of the best closers in the NBA.

Point is, it’s kinda nitpicking isn’t it? I don’t know if Ayo is a future Bulls starter or not. But if he is or isn’t it will be because of his overall game and talent level relative to his peers, not because of isolated plays in random games.

[DuckIII]

Just to use last night’s game as an example, here is what happened in the final 5 minutes of crunch time, focusing on individual mistakes, in order:

1. Vuc makes a horrible pass to AC’s feet for what should have been a layup. TO.
2. Next play DDR throws his pass to nowhere.
3. Immediately followed by Coby, Vuc and AC walking down court with their backs to the offense gifting Utah a layup (the worst sin of all these).
4. Ayo blows a layup (which was disrupted by Sensabaugh who made Ayo switch hands in mid air).

That’s the list.

During that time Ayo took one shot, missed it. Drew a shooting foul and made one free throw. Alternated defensively between Clarkson and Sexton, neither scored a point on him. Forced a diving steal which led to a layup. And smacked the ball from behind out of Collins hands right as he was about to make a put back bunny to force overtime, which ended and saved the game. He played very well in the final five minutes.

I’m not defending Ayo. I’m just talking about your scouting approach. You have to look at everything.