LaVine getting foot surgery/Out for the season

[drosestruts]

I doubt that Zach's reputation has suffered much outside of Chicago. He has pretty much always been on bad teams, which has happened because he has rarely had strong teammates, and he's not good enough to carry a team on his back by himself. So after a while the fans turn on him.

Players of a similar ability are Bradley Beal, KAT, Kristaps Porzingis, Wemby (this year's version), Cade (ditto), Kyrie Irving. If those guys are your team's best player, forget about it. You suck. And eventually your fans will call you a loser, and maybe some outside fans too. But every other team wants that guy on its roster, if the price is right. Such is Zach.

Well said.

I think it's very true and relevant that Zach's never been on that good of a team.

I also think it's relevant that the league as a whole is more talented than we've seen in decades.

A team with LeBron James and Anthony Davis is a .500 team

[MGB8]

I doubt that Zach's reputation has suffered much outside of Chicago. He has pretty much always been on bad teams, which has happened because he has rarely had strong teammates, and he's not good enough to carry a team on his back by himself. So after a while the fans turn on him.

Players of a similar ability are Bradley Beal, KAT, Kristaps Porzingis, Wemby (this year's version), Cade (ditto), Kyrie Irving. If those guys are your team's best player, forget about it. You suck. And eventually your fans will call you a loser, and maybe some outside fans too. But every other team wants that guy on its roster, if the price is right. Such is Zach.

Well said.

I think it's very true and relevant that Zach's never been on that good of a team.

I also think it's relevant that the league as a whole is more talented than we've seen in decades.

A team with LeBron James and Anthony Davis is a .500 team

It is funny, because at least on this board, Zach’s fans have always viewed him as a complementary player on a good team, not the driver. Even more than that, for Zach to really help a team, he needs to be in a very specific role, first or second scorer and on-ball defender, but only secondary ball handler. A finisher, not a creator, and certainly not an offense (or defense) runner/controller.

The problem for the Bulls is that when Lonzo went down, they lost their primary ball handler, and primary ball handling responsibilities suddenly had to get distributed.

They brought in DDR, where San Antonio DDR’s secondary playmaking and secondary scoring would have been a good fit (and adding a FT drawing dimension the team lacked), but with Lonzo and LaVine out DDR went on his DeJordan run… and suddenly you are back to Toronto DDR - a guy whose best role is… first or second scorer, maybe a bit of on-ball defending (when he is trying), only secondary ball handler. Same exact role that Zach needs to be in, and really only room for one of those on the court at once (especially when your center needs shots). Worse for Zach, Derozan is a smarter ball handler and better in the clutch - so without a primary ball handler, DDR is better at that role than Zach. (With a primary ball handler, Zach is better due to creating better spacing because of his better shooting from range.). Anyway, what resulted was some sort of subconscious ego pissing match between DDR and LaVine, and the my-turn, your-turn that turned off teammates and sunk the offense. Or to mention less effort on defense by both, in particular DDR (until this season, but the foot may have something to do with it).

And, despite Coby improving, I’m still not sure that he is a primary ball handler as much as just another guy in the LaVine/TO DDR role, it better at offense running than the other two, less consistent as a scorer.

[FriedRise]

It's such a copycat league that every team is just parroting what everyone else is saying about Zach. He's this year's Westbrook except he couldn't stay healthy. But we're not the Lakers where every team is gonna willingly bend over backwards and bail us out out of the kindness of their heart, so at this point our only option is to let him get back healthy and try again later.

It doesn't take much for narratives to change and for teams to change their tune. After all, this is a "what have you done for me lately?" league. The tune about Westbrook changed the moment he was no longer a poor-fitting player next to LeBron and AD. Teams now are suddenly deciding to keep the players they were trying to move a few weeks earlier like Kuminga or D'Lo because they just had a meaningful stretch of games of playing better (i.e. their value went up). Zach hasn't had many chances to change the narrative because the last meaningful stretch we can point to was all the way back during Thanksgiving when the Bulls were dreadful. And you can't put a **** start like that solely on one player; look at everyone's numbers then, the entire team sucked.

He came back in January and tried to integrate himself back into the team, which was the right thing to do IMO to help change the narrative. If he had stayed healthy instead of getting injured again after a few games, that would've helped a lot. That was his chance to rehab his value. While teams aren't gonna just ignore what he's done in his career, they're gonna look at the latest sample of games and this narrative wouldn't have been as loud. You can talk yourself into trading for him based on his last 10/15/20 games.

How do I know? Because that's exactly what happened when the Bulls were winning back when we had Lonzo. He was suddenly a winning player because the team was winning with him. We could've had a taker that way; all it takes is 1 team willing to dance.

[Stratmaster]

Pretty tough news as one of what seems like, the last few remaining Zach fans around here.

I also simply remain confused as to how and when Zach's value plummeted so fast.

Post All-star break last year Zach played at a legit super star level, and I don't think it's hyperbolic to say so.

He averaged 27 points per game on 53/39/88 shooting splits, had a TS% of 64.5% and added 5 assists.

You can filter stats to see who else was playing at this high of a level and it was really just Zach and and Tyrese Maxey.

And somehow, after what was an excellent finish to the season, his trade value quickly ceased to exist. Which remains mind boggling to me.

And without getting into the conspiracy theories of if this surgery is actually needed or just being made to avoid a trade to an undesired locations - it is happening. Which should help Zach start 2024-25 season healthy, which is a win for everybody whether you still want Zach here or would like to see him moved.

The more years that come off Zach's deal, the more tradeable he is to teams that have hesitations about the length of his deal.

For those that like watching young players blossom - it's gonna be a heck of a 2nd half of a season for you as you'll get plenty of chances to watch Coby, Ayo, Pat (hopefully), Terry, and Phillips.

I look forward to a healthy Zach next year, and yes healthy Zach is a thing that exists - he played in 85% of available games over the previous 3 seasons.

Well said.

The word when they first tried to trade him was that they were asking a kings ransom for him. Not that he had no value. It was known that he and Our genius coach didn't get along; but, it was not looked at as an irreconcilable situation

Then the injury happened. Then, while injured, Zach finally said, "Fine, trade me" and it became apparent that him staying really wasn't an option.

At which point teams said "you want this king's ransom for an injured max contract who your organization has alienated and driven away? ". And they laughed in the Bulls face.


Sent from my SM-S911U using RealGM mobile app

I don’t think teams said anything about the bulls alienating and driving him away. You made that part up lol.

I thought that was clear. lol

But what would you be thinking at that point if the Bulls were still asking for a quality young starter and 2 first round picks?

[DuckIII]

I doubt that Zach's reputation has suffered much outside of Chicago.

It’s easy to disregard a media report. It’s much harder when virtually every single media report both nationally and from the relevant markets are all saying the same thing.

To the extent there were some questioning those reports - including specifically me because deals normally get done at the last minute, teams use the media for leverage, Zach objectively provides things you could see numerous teams would logically want, etc. - the choice to shut him down for the season 5 days before the trade deadline removed all real doubt. It’s pretty obvious now there was no market and that, yes, his reputation has badly suffered outside Chicago. Or that it was never good to begin with.

[MrSparkle]

Zach had his moment, particularly after the Olympic run with Draymond and Durant. At his best, I don’t think he had this “four unprotected picks” value like Mitchell or Gobert (although I didn’t think those guys did either… but granted they had longer playoff records and accolades). His $20M salary was probably a lot more appealing than his on-court potential.

I don’t particularly think there was ever a great market for $45M Lavine. We kinda did the right thing by offering him the max, but I thought they could’ve atleast explored the S&T market. FA markets have been tight the past few years (usually tank jobs have cap).

Anyway, it is what it is. If Pistons wanted Zach a week ago, they might as well want him in November since it makes no sense winning more games this season, anyway. I just think AK refuses to dump him for zero assets. Odds are that Pistons deal would’ve fallen through, as they’d try to jam Killian Hayes and Wiseman on us, instead of any picks.

Otherwise, here we go with over $70M of cap going to surgeries and rehabs. 3 seasons in a row rocked by heavy injuries to starters.

[Ice Man]

It’s pretty obvious now there was no market and that, yes, his his reputation has badly suffered outside Chicago. Or that it was never good to begin with.

It's not obvious to me. Once the season begins, trades largely consist of bad to meh teams (e.g. Chicago) seeking future assets for currently good players (e.g. Zach), dealing with good teams that want to improve their chances for the current season. But Zach won't improve anybody's chances this season. He has been hurt all year. And there's no realistic way for the Bulls to hide that fact. When talking in the trade market, they had to acknowledge that he was damaged goods. If not, then if a trade was arranged the opposing team's doctors would learn soon enough, which would lead to the trade being annulled and the Bulls looking very bad.

IIn short, I have no idea what prime-level Zach is worth in the marketplace (although I would imagine quite a bit), because the Bulls have not shopped that guy.

Note: When making this post, I have assumed that Zach's injury has been season long. The Bulls haven't been public about it for that entire period, but I am pretty sure that has been the case. It's the simplest and most logical explanation for why his game fell off the cliff this season. He just has never been right.

[Red8911]

Well said.

The word when they first tried to trade him was that they were asking a kings ransom for him. Not that he had no value. It was known that he and Our genius coach didn't get along; but, it was not looked at as an irreconcilable situation

Then the injury happened. Then, while injured, Zach finally said, "Fine, trade me" and it became apparent that him staying really wasn't an option.

At which point teams said "you want this king's ransom for an injured max contract who your organization has alienated and driven away? ". And they laughed in the Bulls face.


Sent from my SM-S911U using RealGM mobile app

I don’t think teams said anything about the bulls alienating and driving him away. You made that part up lol.

I thought that was clear. lol

But what would you be thinking at that point if the Bulls were still asking for a quality young starter and 2 first round picks?

No one alienated or drove Zach away. He did that all by himself. When you get paid the big bucks you need to play at a higher level, he hasn’t in 2 years unfortunately.

[Ice Man]

No one alienated or drove Zach away. He did that all by himself. When you get paid the big bucks you need to play at a higher level, he hasn’t in 2 years unfortunately.

Zach was who he is last season. Statistically, that season was similar to each of his previous 3 years. If that's not good enough, well then that's not good enough -- but that is the player that the Bulls re-signed. He didn't get appreciably worse.

This year, of course, he has been a mess. No question there.

[Red8911]

The timing of the surgery decision is quite frankly super suspect. Also, what foot surgery would require 4-6 months of being off? Something that long insinuates either a major soft tissue surgery (e.g. muscle flap or tendon transfer) or an external fixator. Basically, something like that would have the potential of being career ending or something that would result in him being a significantly less player than even his recent play. If he comes back at full strength then the timeline doesn’t make sense. It does make you wonder if his agency is involved in this if the reports of Zach potentially being traded to Detroit are true.

Yeah it’s all fishy. Same day that reports had Bulls and Detroit coming closer to a deal Zach out of no where announces he’s getting a season ending surgery.

I doubt Zach is getting a surgery just to not get traded to Detroit(that would be insane on his part lol but maybe he knew for a while that he needed a surgery and Klutch held the information to see what would first happen with his trade situation.

I’m sure AK has had enough of Klutch and their clients.

Hmmm, I’m pretty certain those “reports” were from some stupid twitter account that at least one poster (PJ Stevens) here called out as fake news, presumably from seeing it post garbage in the past.

Just because some random acct tagged legit people doesn’t make it real. Didn’t see any posts from the usual sources themselves.

Man. People really gotta start scrutinizing twitter and tik tok if they’re using it for their news.

No KC confirmed it as well.

[Dan Z]

Yeah it’s all fishy. Same day that reports had Bulls and Detroit coming closer to a deal Zach out of no where announces he’s getting a season ending surgery.

I doubt Zach is getting a surgery just to not get traded to Detroit(that would be insane on his part lol but maybe he knew for a while that he needed a surgery and Klutch held the information to see what would first happen with his trade situation.

I’m sure AK has had enough of Klutch and their clients.

Don't the Bulls have a medical staff that would know about his foot injury? Or does he have a personal doctor?

I thought the timing was questionable too. One thing I asked the other day is why didn't he wait until after the deadline? The response I got is that it wouldn't matter either way and that's probably true. However, what if a good team made an offer for him? Would Zach put off surgery until the off season? Of course, I say this without knowing the severity of his injury.

My theory is this:

Zach LaVine had a foot injury that he could've played through if it was worth it. He probably would've needed surgery eventually (or perhaps surgery was a better long-term option), but would've put it off for the right situation. Sensing that the Detroit rumor was real, Zach and Klutch decided to go ahead and do the surgery now. Was this done to scare off the Pistons? Maybe to an extent, but I don't think he's opposed to playing for Detroit. I just don't think he's interested in playing through an injury for the worst team in the league. Who would be?

I also think Zach would rather deal with the surgery on Chicago's time than during his off-season. Like Pippen famously said, "I wasn't going to **** up my summer."

That makes sense and it's what I think about the situation too.

Do you think the Bulls knew about his foot injury for awhile now or did it come as a surprise?

[Stratmaster]

I don’t think teams said anything about the bulls alienating and driving him away. You made that part up lol.

I thought that was clear. lol

But what would you be thinking at that point if the Bulls were still asking for a quality young starter and 2 first round picks?

No one alienated or drove Zach away. He did that all by himself. When you get paid the big bucks you need to play at a higher level, he hasn’t in 2 years unfortunately.

All of that is completely false. But sure.

Sent from my SM-S911U using RealGM mobile app

[Stratmaster]

Yeah it’s all fishy. Same day that reports had Bulls and Detroit coming closer to a deal Zach out of no where announces he’s getting a season ending surgery.

I doubt Zach is getting a surgery just to not get traded to Detroit(that would be insane on his part lol but maybe he knew for a while that he needed a surgery and Klutch held the information to see what would first happen with his trade situation.

I’m sure AK has had enough of Klutch and their clients.

Hmmm, I’m pretty certain those “reports” were from some stupid twitter account that at least one poster (PJ Stevens) here called out as fake news, presumably from seeing it post garbage in the past.

Just because some random acct tagged legit people doesn’t make it real. Didn’t see any posts from the usual sources themselves.

Man. People really gotta start scrutinizing twitter and tik tok if they’re using it for their news.

No KC confirmed it as well.

Confirmed which part?

Sent from my SM-S911U using RealGM mobile app

[ShouldaPaidBG]

Zach had his moment, particularly after the Olympic run with Draymond and Durant. At his best, I don’t think he had this “four unprotected picks” value like Mitchell or Gobert (although I didn’t think those guys did either… but granted they had longer playoff records and accolades). His $20M salary was probably a lot more appealing than his on-court potential.

I don’t particularly think there was ever a great market for $45M Lavine. We kinda did the right thing by offering him the max, but I thought they could’ve atleast explored the S&T market. FA markets have been tight the past few years (usually tank jobs have cap).

Anyway, it is what it is. If Pistons wanted Zach a week ago, they might as well want him in November since it makes no sense winning more games this season, anyway. I just think AK refuses to dump him for zero assets. Odds are that Pistons deal would’ve fallen through, as they’d try to jam Killian Hayes and Wiseman on us, instead of any picks.

Otherwise, here we go with over $70M of cap going to surgeries and rehabs. 3 seasons in a row rocked by heavy injuries to starters.

The Olympics are what put him on the wrong path. It was quarantine with Draymond that caused him to sign with Klutch in the first place. The ego problems came along with it. The way Zach came back from his ACL tear was actually impressive/inspiring. He clearly had an extremely regimented offseason workout routine. The Olympics threw it off for the first time in years. I think with a repaired knee you have to take recovery seriously, and Zach's body basically couldn't afford to spend an offseason playing the Olympics vs. his normal routine. The little injuries started piling up right after that, and it led us to where we are now. I'm not saying he lost his work ethic, definitely not, it's just that his body couldn't handle it and it created this cascade/domino effect of small dings leading to compensation injuries, leading to frustration and everything else that's happened.......he was a different player before an after the Olympics and it can't all be chalked up to the roster overhaul.

[Red8911]

Hmmm, I’m pretty certain those “reports” were from some stupid twitter account that at least one poster (PJ Stevens) here called out as fake news, presumably from seeing it post garbage in the past.

Just because some random acct tagged legit people doesn’t make it real. Didn’t see any posts from the usual sources themselves.

Man. People really gotta start scrutinizing twitter and tik tok if they’re using it for their news.

No KC confirmed it as well.

Confirmed which part?

Sent from my SM-S911U using RealGM mobile app

The Zach trade to Detroit rumors, he even said that they were talking. He didn’t say they were close or anything but the reports were not fake.

[Red8911]

Zach had his moment, particularly after the Olympic run with Draymond and Durant. At his best, I don’t think he had this “four unprotected picks” value like Mitchell or Gobert (although I didn’t think those guys did either… but granted they had longer playoff records and accolades). His $20M salary was probably a lot more appealing than his on-court potential.

I don’t particularly think there was ever a great market for $45M Lavine. We kinda did the right thing by offering him the max, but I thought they could’ve atleast explored the S&T market. FA markets have been tight the past few years (usually tank jobs have cap).

Anyway, it is what it is. If Pistons wanted Zach a week ago, they might as well want him in November since it makes no sense winning more games this season, anyway. I just think AK refuses to dump him for zero assets. Odds are that Pistons deal would’ve fallen through, as they’d try to jam Killian Hayes and Wiseman on us, instead of any picks.

Otherwise, here we go with over $70M of cap going to surgeries and rehabs. 3 seasons in a row rocked by heavy injuries to starters.

The Olympics are what put him on the wrong path. It was quarantine with Draymond that caused him to sign with Klutch in the first place. The ego problems came along with it. The way Zach came back from his ACL tear was actually impressive/inspiring. He clearly had an extremely regimented offseason workout routine. The Olympics threw it off for the first time in years. I think with a repaired knee you have to take recovery seriously, and Zach's body basically couldn't afford to spend an offseason playing the Olympics vs. his normal routine. The little injuries started piling up right after that, and it led us to where we are now. I'm not saying he lost his work ethic, definitely not, it's just that his body couldn't handle it and it created this cascade/domino effect of small dings leading to compensation injuries, leading to frustration and everything else that's happened.......he was a different player before an after the Olympics and it can't all be chalked up to the roster overhaul.

Let’s not forget he’s getting a lil older too, 29 soon. He’s never going to be the Zach that we had once he came to Chicago. The high flying fast as a bullet athletic player he once was is a thing in the past. He obviously can still do some of those things but not like he used to.

[Wingy]

No KC confirmed it as well.

Confirmed which part?

Sent from my SM-S911U using RealGM mobile app

The Zach trade to Detroit rumors, he even said that they were talking. He didn’t say they were close or anything but the reports were not fake.

Yeah, but there’s a difference. You were pointing to something that suggested we were actually getting closer to getting a deal done…and that was based on some bunk ass twitter account.

“Same day that reports had Bulls and Detroit coming closer to a deal”

The only thing from that day was that fake news twitter acct. nothing from a legit source. Yeah, kc noted talks, but not that progress was being made.

[bullskokie]

I had so much respect for Zach.. now nada zero!

[Mirotek]

Watch on YouTube

Pretty long watch. Only watched the beginning so far and they talk about the Lavine situation.

[WindyCityBorn]

I had so much respect for Zach.. now nada zero!

Because he got injured? His choice was keeping playing injured for a team going nowhere, keep getting slandered for poor play and then have surgery in the offseason or do it now to be ready for next season to prove he is still the same talent. You never had much respect for him to begin with then.