LaVine getting foot surgery/Out for the season

[DropStep]

No one trading any plus value assets for a Lavine who is done for the year. Salary dump at the absolute most.

Only hope to trade him now is to tanking teams. The ones who are actually competing will not even entertain an offer for a player who won’t play for the rest of the season.

Seem reasonable, but then again the Rockets traded for Adams. Even John Wall was traded multiple times. There are differences, I'm just saying things do happen, especially with young teams looking to the future.

[Dan Z]

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[MrSparkle]

Read on Twitter

Well, I believe it. Truth is he came into this season playing some of the worst basketball I've seen him play in a Bulls jersey. Hopefully he comes back looking more like 2021-23 Zach, if he can't be traded before the season.

[Dan Z]

Read on Twitter

Well, I believe it. Truth is he came into this season playing some of the worst basketball I've seen him play in a Bulls jersey. Hopefully he comes back looking more like 2021-23 Zach, if he can't be traded before the season.

It's unfortunate because if he played better this season they would've been able to trade him. I'd be surprised if a deal is made this off season, but who knows.

I imagine that teams will want to see him on the court before they consider a trade.

[Dan Z]

"Bulls' Zach LaVine ahead of schedule in foot surgery recovery":

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/39694982/bulls-zach-lavine-ahead-schedule-foot-surgery-recovery

[Stratmaster]

I don't know how we got to "we won the trade, because Zach is as good as Butler and younger plus we got other guys" to "this player is so bad that we will accept pretty much anybody half decent in response."

But we did. (And no, I am not exaggerating. Stacey was saying the former constantly back in Zach's All Star days, with plenty of support on this board.) And now we're hoping to swap Zach for a "shooting" guard who makes 41% from the field.

Gonna slap my head now.

YEP. The contrast has to do with this being the 7th season on the roster for Lavine, including 2 all-star apperances, 5 straight seasons where he averaged between 24 and 27 ppg, 3 straight seasons of over .600 ts٪ (including an amazing .634 one season)... then followed by a 2nd knee surgery and a foot surgery.

Add in alienation between him and Donovan, complete mismanagement of the trade process by AKME, and an unwillingness of either the coach or front office to stand with their 40 million star player.

You couldn't write a better manual for how to ruin the value of an asset.

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[dougthonus]

YEP. The contrast has to do with this being the 7th season on the roster for Lavine, including 2 all-star apperances, 5 straight seasons where he averaged between 24 and 27 ppg, 3 straight seasons of over .600 ts٪ (including an amazing .634 one season)... then followed by a 2nd knee surgery and a foot surgery.

Add in alienation between him and Donovan, complete mismanagement of the trade process by AKME, and an unwillingness of either the coach or front office to stand with their 40 million star player.

You couldn't write a better manual for how to ruin the value of an asset.

I believe all of those things to some extent, and generally think Zach is beaten up way too much.

That said:
- He also has never demonstrated a consistent impact on winning ever in his career, and his teams seem to do better without him
- He either takes too long to process or just too lazy (I think the 1st), particularly on defense
- He has had run ins with both of his coaches and would appears to sulk over them even when the coach is reasonable

I don't know that individuals have swung that big on Zach as much as all the people who always hated Zach are now louder because of the current situation and those who like Zach generally have less to stand on in the immediate moment.

If we ignore contract / attitude, I like Zach a lot, he's a 3 level scorer that could play next to a lot of guys. That said, even at his career best performance, his contract is probably barely viable which leaves little room for any dip in performance, and I certainly perceive him to have at least some lack of flexibility in his role.

Whatever you want to prescribe it to (perception time, low BBIQ, laziness), on both ends of the floor he doesn't react well or quickly to changing information. He's frequently in the wrong spot defensively, and on offense he tends to hold the ball a ton and operates less well in a high pass offense / high action / more complicated scheme which limits some of his strengths.

At any rate, best case for the Bulls is Zach's issues are highly correlated to this procedure even at the start of the year, and he comes back killing it on offense like he did in the past.

[DuckIII]

"Bulls' Zach LaVine ahead of schedule in foot surgery recovery":

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/39694982/bulls-zach-lavine-ahead-schedule-foot-surgery-recovery

Oh please. The doctors told him the pain would not go away so he decided to end his season right before the trade deadline? As though the doctors had not been telling him that all along?

The issue is not that he got surgery. No doubt he needed it. The issue is the smell around the timing.

Regardless, it’s his career and he can do what he wants. I don’t even have a problem with it since it’s clear he had no trade value at the time anyway and now Coby and Ayo have that much more freedom to grow their games. And now Lavine will presumably be traded at a time when his value is a little more than zero.

Big picture, it worked out fine for the Bulls.

[Stratmaster]

YEP. The contrast has to do with this being the 7th season on the roster for Lavine, including 2 all-star apperances, 5 straight seasons where he averaged between 24 and 27 ppg, 3 straight seasons of over .600 ts٪ (including an amazing .634 one season)... then followed by a 2nd knee surgery and a foot surgery.

Add in alienation between him and Donovan, complete mismanagement of the trade process by AKME, and an unwillingness of either the coach or front office to stand with their 40 million star player.

You couldn't write a better manual for how to ruin the value of an asset.

I believe all of those things to some extent, and generally think Zach is beaten up way too much.

That said:
- He also has never demonstrated a consistent impact on winning ever in his career, and his teams seem to do better without him
- He either takes too long to process or just too lazy (I think the 1st), particularly on defense
- He has had run ins with both of his coaches and would appears to sulk over them even when the coach is reasonable

I don't know that individuals have swung that big on Zach as much as all the people who always hated Zach are now louder because of the current situation and those who like Zach generally have less to stand on in the immediate moment.

If we ignore contract / attitude, I like Zach a lot, he's a 3 level scorer that could play next to a lot of guys. That said, even at his career best performance, his contract is probably barely viable which leaves little room for any dip in performance, and I certainly perceive him to have at least some lack of flexibility in his role.

Whatever you want to prescribe it to (perception time, low BBIQ, laziness), on both ends of the floor he doesn't react well or quickly to changing information. He's frequently in the wrong spot defensively, and on offense he tends to hold the ball a ton and operates less well in a high pass offense / high action / more complicated scheme which limits some of his strengths.

At any rate, best case for the Bulls is Zach's issues are highly correlated to this procedure even at the start of the year, and he comes back killing it on offense like he did in the past.

I was just commenting on how and why his standing has fallen. Not analyzing his performance.

I've already discussed all the things you mentioned, some of which I agree with, and much of which I don't, ad nauseum. It's like our presidential race. People made up their minds a long time ago. Some for good reasons, and some out of complete ridiculousness. No one changing them at this point. I mean, unless as both sides hope, he is back to all star Zach next season.

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[Stratmaster]

"Bulls' Zach LaVine ahead of schedule in foot surgery recovery":

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/39694982/bulls-zach-lavine-ahead-schedule-foot-surgery-recovery

Oh please. The doctors told him the pain would not go away so he decided to end his season right before the trade deadline? As though the doctors had not been telling him that all along?

The issue is not that he got surgery. No doubt he needed it. The issue is the smell around the timing.

Regardless, it’s his career and he can do what he wants. I don’t even have a problem with it since it’s clear he had no trade value at the time anyway and now Coby and Ayo have that much more freedom to grow their games. And now Lavine will presumably be traded at a time when his value is a little more than zero.

Big picture, it worked out fine for the Bulls.

What do you mean "oh please"? What benefit do you think Zach got out of having the surgery when he did?

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[Dan Z]

"Bulls' Zach LaVine ahead of schedule in foot surgery recovery":

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/39694982/bulls-zach-lavine-ahead-schedule-foot-surgery-recovery

Oh please. The doctors told him the pain would not go away so he decided to end his season right before the trade deadline? As though the doctors had not been telling him that all along?

The issue is not that he got surgery. No doubt he needed it. The issue is the smell around the timing.

Regardless, it’s his career and he can do what he wants. I don’t even have a problem with it since it’s clear he had no trade value at the time anyway and now Coby and Ayo have that much more freedom to grow their games. And now Lavine will presumably be traded at a time when his value is a little more than zero.

Big picture, it worked out fine for the Bulls.

Does he still want to be traded? I think so, but he gave a stock answer about playing (which is what I expected). Trading him makes sense because the Bulls need to move on.

Unfortunately, the Bulls spent years developing LaVine and the end result will probably not lead to much (neutral value?).

I wish they realized sooner that Zach, while a good player, wasn't the right one to build around.

[PaKii94]

#MakeZachLavineGreatAgain!

[Chi town]

Lonzo can rehab Zach’s value real quick

[WindyCityBorn]

I have no doubt Zach will put up highly efficient scoring numbers again once healthy. Bulls jobs is make sure they capitalize on that once it happens. Don’t try to mend fences or keep it together if even we are playing well and winning.

I’m huge Zach fan, but it’s over. Unfortunately I think we chose the wrong player of out the Mid 3 to move on from. The other two will be cooked by age within the next 2 seasons.

[kodo]

He was actually very efficient on jump shots this year.
Mid range: 44% -> 50%
Long 2: 43% - > 47%
3p: 37% -> 35%

In comparison, MVP candidate Tatum is 41%/43%/37%.

The 3s were 2% down, but everyone shot poorly at the start in this new offense and everyone shot well from 3 after adjusting, most likely Lavine would have as well. He was already 43% from 3 in the last 5 before he went out of the lineup.

Where Lavine's efficiency dropped was on drives and near the rim...he was strangely missing easy layups. He's been 69%-70% near the rim last 3 seasons and dropped a ton this year.

Needing foot surgery explains quite a bit...maybe should have happened over the summer? But this wouldn't be the first time the Bulls delayed surgery in some attempt to maximize short term wins.

[Mk0]

"Bulls' Zach LaVine ahead of schedule in foot surgery recovery":

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/39694982/bulls-zach-lavine-ahead-schedule-foot-surgery-recovery

Oh please. The doctors told him the pain would not go away so he decided to end his season right before the trade deadline? As though the doctors had not been telling him that all along?

The issue is not that he got surgery. No doubt he needed it. The issue is the smell around the timing.

Regardless, it’s his career and he can do what he wants. I don’t even have a problem with it since it’s clear he had no trade value at the time anyway and now Coby and Ayo have that much more freedom to grow their games. And now Lavine will presumably be traded at a time when his value is a little more than zero.

Big picture, it worked out fine for the Bulls.

What do you mean "oh please"? What benefit do you think Zach got out of having the surgery when he did?

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He doesn't have to live in Detroit

[Stratmaster]

Oh please. The doctors told him the pain would not go away so he decided to end his season right before the trade deadline? As though the doctors had not been telling him that all along?

The issue is not that he got surgery. No doubt he needed it. The issue is the smell around the timing.

Regardless, it’s his career and he can do what he wants. I don’t even have a problem with it since it’s clear he had no trade value at the time anyway and now Coby and Ayo have that much more freedom to grow their games. And now Lavine will presumably be traded at a time when his value is a little more than zero.

Big picture, it worked out fine for the Bulls.

What do you mean "oh please"? What benefit do you think Zach got out of having the surgery when he did?

Sent from my SM-S911U using RealGM mobile app

He doesn't have to live in Detroit

Lol. Why you hatin' on the motor city? Don't answer that. It Durant need explaining.

But he has to keep playing for Billy Donovan.

The Bulls had a year to trade him, and Detroit had plenty of time to grab him if they wanted to. I don't buy that suddenly there was an imminent trade. He would have flunked the physical anyway. I would believe that as the reason (that his people knew he couldn't be moved at that point due to the injury) if we want to go that direction.

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[MrSparkle]

At the end of the day, Vuc pairs negatively with literally everybody (right now), and bringing him in to be Zach's side-kick was a huge mistake. They became a negative-rated 2-man line-up since his arrival, and instead of making our offense even a tiny bit better, the pairing made our offense and defense tremendously worse.

The only Vuc pairings that were in the green were Caruso, and prior to that, Javonte and Lonzo. My knock on Zach is he doesn't anticipate nor make any remotely savvy defensive plays like the aforementioned guys, and I think that's fair to want out of a high usage max player if he's not creating easy baskets for anybody.

Because here's the thing: leaders need to do something for their teammates that makes their lives easier. Role-players want to look better, make more money. If everyone's job is to stand back and watch Zach iso, and then on the other end cover for his liabilities, and then he also pouts and points fingers at the team for not being good enough... How is that a remotely likable locker-room leader? Who is gonna sacrifice their body and game to help him? They might respect his work ethic and individual game, but he never won the team's trust.

Demar's a defensive dud but he obviously pushes these guys in a more constructive way, and IMO just makes smarter plays (and has a higher success rate with his iso). Vuc is a two-way dud, but he tries to move the ball, rotate and play in the team concept. So is a Zach a chemistry killer? Yeah, he is as a top-2 option.

He must be the 3rd wheel on a team IMO with a very clear #1 & #2 telling him what to do, yelling defensive instructions. Personality goes a long way. 2016 Jimmy was an elite player, but his playmaking and scoring wasn't as good as it is now, but more importantly, he didn't win anyone over with his personality- instead divided the locker room. Maybe 27-29 (age) is a tough time to win your teammates' trust with hard love if you're not a Lebron, CP3 or Garnett. Then again, even those guys struggled getting the most of mediocre talent in their young primes.

Ultimately, Zach and Vuc were a terrible basketball combination (namely Vuc and anybody short of a DPOY), and the FO squandered the Zach plan in that regard. Otherwise, Zach didn't develop into a winning leader- it was a long shot anyway. This team with a healthy Lonzo would've been a much more fun squad; perfect fit for Zach. Could've seen more dunks and more 3Ps. Oh well.

[patryk7754]

YEP. The contrast has to do with this being the 7th season on the roster for Lavine, including 2 all-star apperances, 5 straight seasons where he averaged between 24 and 27 ppg, 3 straight seasons of over .600 ts٪ (including an amazing .634 one season)... then followed by a 2nd knee surgery and a foot surgery.

Add in alienation between him and Donovan, complete mismanagement of the trade process by AKME, and an unwillingness of either the coach or front office to stand with their 40 million star player.

You couldn't write a better manual for how to ruin the value of an asset.

I believe all of those things to some extent, and generally think Zach is beaten up way too much.

That said:
- He also has never demonstrated a consistent impact on winning ever in his career, and his teams seem to do better without him.

Agreed but I think he’s never really been put in the right role. Here, he was expected to be the number one guy, which you can’t be if you’re not consistently carrying your team to wins. And when they finally added a couple of guys to help hi, it was probably the two worst fits for him. I think he can still live up to his contract but it has to be as a number two guy behind someone like embiid. And the a cherry on top is finding a PG like lonzo (it would be great if lonzo could come back to like 80/90% of what he was, but I have doubts.}

It’s not very likely but I think making a strong push for Embiid, hiring budenholzer and finding a true PG (if one exists anymore) would be the ideal plan.

[dougthonus]

Agreed but I think he’s never really been put in the right role. Here, he was expected to be the number one guy, which you can’t be if you’re not consistently carrying your team to wins. And when they finally added a couple of guys to help hi, it was probably the two worst fits for him. I think he can still live up to his contract but it has to be as a number two guy behind someone like embiid. And the a cherry on top is finding a PG like lonzo (it would be great if lonzo could come back to like 80/90% of what he was, but I have doubts.}

It’s not very likely but I think making a strong push for Embiid, hiring budenholzer and finding a true PG (if one exists anymore) would be the ideal plan.

If you are a max player, it shouldn't be hard to figure out the right role.

If Zach were back on a 20M per year deal, there probably wouldn't be any complaints. In the end, a lot of opinions are probably implicitly factoring in contract when talking about how good a player is. Like Zach's definitely a very talented player. When healthy, he's absolutely top 75, which means he's probably rightly cast as a #2 or #3 best player on a team. That's probably more of a 27M type guy than than 45M type guy.

The money will always get in the way there.