PG: Coby show on ESPN but fall short

[TheGOATRises007]

Not really a good analogy. Bulls were the best W/L team in the league for 2 seasons with Boozer starting at PF.

Prime Booz would be great with Demar, Zach, Coby and Drum. That's likely a top 4 starting lineup in the East


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Boozer was not in his prime here and got outplayed by Taj Gibson a lot during that time. We was similar like Vuc, but more like efficient. Averaged like 17/10, but generally left you frustrated and was considered a weak link.

And just like Vuc he never made another all-star team after joining the Bulls.

Let me make my point more clearly.

Replace Vuc with THAT Boozer and this team would have contended for the ECF even without Lonzo. Put him alongside Drum instead of Vuc.

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It's Boozer. Not Tim Duncan.

[RSP83]

On that last possession turnover, after rewatching it, I think that's not the best decision by Coby making that pass. Vuc clearly didn't expect it. To be fair, it's usually Demar in those situation, so everybody is still figuring out Coby in that situation. Coby still has a lot to work to as a closer, both IQ and mental wise.

Despite Vuc probably not the sole to blame on that turnover, he's mostly bad throughout the game. He's still a 20-10 guy, but his efficiency continue to decline with age. I think the right idea of high impact aging center is somebody like Marc Gasol. You can't rely on and don't really need a 33 year old Vuc putting up 20-10 in your team.

The way the Bulls use him he should be better at three point shooting because he gets a lot of open looks. His career is .342 and this year it's currently .277. I can't imagine that's age, but maybe it is?

Isn't there a stat on Vuc in some threads that show how he has one of the worst TS% in the league for his level of usage. And it's also his career low. So, it's overall offensive efficiency.

[Indomitable]

On that last possession turnover, after rewatching it, I think that's not the best decision by Coby making that pass. Vuc clearly didn't expect it. To be fair, it's usually Demar in those situation, so everybody is still figuring out Coby in that situation. Coby still has a lot to work to as a closer, both IQ and mental wise.

Despite Vuc probably not the sole to blame on that turnover, he's mostly bad throughout the game. He's still a 20-10 guy, but his efficiency continue to decline with age. I think the right idea of high impact aging center is somebody like Marc Gasol. You can't rely on and don't really need a 33 year old Vuc putting up 20-10 in your team.

The way the Bulls use him he should be better at three point shooting because he gets a lot of open looks. His career is .342 and this year it's currently .277. I can't imagine that's age, but maybe it is?

Isn't there a stat on Vuc in some threads that show how he has one of the worst TS% in the league for his level of usage. And it's also his career low. So, it's overall offensive efficiency.

My biggest problem is Vuc is wide open. He is not taking contestant shots. He is being treated like a scrub.

[Indomitable]

Looking forward to the ref report tomorrow how the call on Caruso was wrong. Yay

I can't believe we didn't challenge that. It was clear contact initiated by Mitchell (I think?).

Totally agree-why not challenge? It seemed clear to me
Vuc and the refs killed us, simple as that

I used to think Lavine and Mitchell were on the same tier-if they were we'd be a contender

Billy never takes chances.

[sco]

I had this as a blowout loss on the schedule, and I kept half-expecting it to happen all game, but kudos to the Bulls answering back. I'll call it a moral victory.

Coby was great, and the more amazing thing is that I've started expecting games like this from him, but he was clutch.

Demar also played well IMO. He found his shots and made them.

Ayo made his 3's which was great, but I found him otherwise afraid to attack in the paint.

Drummond held his own inside, which was absolutely needed.

Caruso did AC things.

Vuc showed me that he is ONLY a bumslayer. Put him against any competent defensive C and he gets the yips.

[sco]

Boozer was not in his prime here and got outplayed by Taj Gibson a lot during that time. We was similar like Vuc, but more like efficient. Averaged like 17/10, but generally left you frustrated and was considered a weak link.

And just like Vuc he never made another all-star team after joining the Bulls.

Let me make my point more clearly.

Replace Vuc with THAT Boozer and this team would have contended for the ECF even without Lonzo. Put him alongside Drum instead of Vuc.

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It's Boozer. Not Tim Duncan.

IIRC, much of the Boozer complaints were due to his large contract in relation to his production. He was probably a 2nd quartile PF, but paid like a 1st quartile guy. He also annoyed me for his "get it Jo's". Taj was a guy who was a Butler-type developer...he seemed to add something every year.

[Ice Man]

The Boozer we had for the first 2 years equalled this year's Vuc in everything, but was more efficient at scoring. The difference was probably worth a couple of games per year. Utah Boozer might have been +5 games though. That player was genuinely good.

By Year 3 for the Bulls Booz is where Vuc is now, which was why Thibs started to pull him down the stretch.

[othawhitemeat]

Vuc sucks, AKME sucks on trying to stay competitive w a mediocre team. Love Coby, hope to see continued growth for Ayo in terms of driving. First game watched in a while since it was a national telecast and feel NBA product isnt very good anymore and watching the dumb reffing, can see why. Just watching Mitchell get treated like the 06 Wade vs Mavs was ridiculous. Felt like I was watching the sequel to the Tim Donaghey special. Honestly, Bulls would have won otherwise, IMO. Also, why did one of leaders such as Craig/Drummond not put Niang in his place when he was trying to bully Coby and why the freak did Coby get a tech on that, smh.

Coby will be an all-star next year if continued growth!

[FriedRise]

Vucevic is 11th on the team in TS% at 53%.
Alex/Ayo: 61%+
Drummond/Derozan/Lavine/Coby: 57%-58%
Patrick/Torrey/Taylor: 55%
Vuc: 53%

Vuc is 1st on the team in FGA/36 minutes.
Vucevic: 16.5
Derozan: 15.9
White: 15.0

Taking the (almost) worst scorer on your team and coaching your team to have him take the most shots per minute of play is a big reason why we're still a terrible offense despite all three of Coby, Ayo, and Caruso massively upgrading their offensive game.

Vuc can't help that he's aging and now a liability. All he can do is do the best that he can when thrown in there. Whoever is making to decision to play him 40 minutes deserves the blame on this more than Vuc.

A better coach would limit his usage and shot attempts. He should be getting something similar to Brook Lopez: 11 FGAs P36, 15% USG. Maybe his efficiency would tick up a bit with less volume, and if it doesn't, you're at least not consistently shooting yourself in the foot allocating the highest number of shots to your least efficient, 53% TS player.

Give 4-5 of those shots to Coby, DeMar, and Ayo and we're instantly a better offensive team without having to change anything. He might throw a fit though and start yelling at you in Serbian.

[drosestruts]

This Cavs team really rubs me the wrong way, and I think it's a combination of their players and their fans. I've read so many comments online since last night that Coby White is some big-time flopper, which is rich coming from a team with Donovan Mitchell. Have some self awareness.

And then what the heck is up with George Niang? Chill out man - also incorporate some cardio into your workouts.

The week leading up the all-star break is always a tricky one and it looks like Vuc went on vacation early. Brutal game from him, but our roster kind of forces us to play him (though it seems like Billy would anyway), particularly against a team with size like Cleveland. I'm just gonna kee psaying it, but sign Kai Jones with the open roster spot, we need another big body. If Kerr can sit Thompson down the stretch when he's playing bad, we can sit Vuc.

Ayo got blocked a couple times when attacking the basket and then got scared to attack. You've gotta keep attack, and it would be helpful to develop a drag step move or some different moves when trying to score at the rim. Suppose that's just the next step for a guy who's been playing really well lately.

The Donovan challenge - this may have been answered all ready but from my understanding Donovan could only challenge if Caruso made contact with Mitchell or not (which he did) he could challenge that Mitchell pushed him right before that. It's a limitation in the challenge rules over a limitation in Billy's coaching, in this case.

Coby and DeMar were great. Nice to hear Doris and the ESPN crew talking about Coby as MIP.

This loss and the Orlando loss sting - they were right there for the taking.

Hope everyone is able to rest up, get healthy, and we can make a strong push to end the season.

Hope we see Cleveland in the playoffs and give them another first round exit and get front row seats to watching them implode when Mitchell requests a trade. We've been on the other end of plenty of regular season series wins vs the cavs then losing in the playoffs, time to flip the script.

[WindyCityBorn]

Still don't see the issue. The Cavs didn't have both Allen and Mobley out there. Drummond came in with 9 minutes left in the 2nd. Do you expect Billy to play him the rest of the 2nd quarter and then start him in the 3rd? He can't play the double big lineup all game and without another backup 5, you can't throw out the lineup whenever you want.

The only player the defense should be worried about is Coby. Why would they pay attention to Vuc when they've been leaving him open all game? Demar is only good at 3s from the corners and Ayo only shoots spot-ups. Plus you only have 5 seconds left.

I didn't say anything about a double big lineup. But when you get done picking the reason you are debating my point let me know.

Craig? Terry? Billy is getting paid millions of dollars to be an NBA head coach. I would think the least he could do is actually manage minutes and rotations to avoid 3 guards, Demar and Vuc.

You just made my point for me on the last play. Thanks for agreeing.

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Craig is coming off an injury and Philips/Terry are massive offensive liablites. Nobody guards them and they make it harder for the already bad offense to score.

The 3 guard lineup Coby/Ayo/Caruso/Derozan/Vuc has a net rating of +12. Why are you complaining about a lineup that's been extremely effective this season? Have you ever considered that Billy uses this lineup often because it works?

Nothing is beyond criticism when you are mediocre.

[jacoby1us]

Read on Twitter

Ok we know Vuc sucked really bad lastnight but fundamentally sound basketball is not penetrating that deep, jumping in mid air to turn your body to pass it to a seven foot big man who is actually in motion with bad hands.

KYP- KNOW YOUR PERSONNEL

Why don't you just live with the shot yourself on that possession as you are in the paint at this point? Vuc has been terrible all night from all sides of the court, I wouldn't have that level of trust to put him in that situation regardless.

[FriedRise]

This Cavs team really rubs me the wrong way, and I think it's a combination of their players and their fans. I've read so many comments online since last night that Coby White is some big-time flopper, which is rich coming from a team with Donovan Mitchell. Have some self awareness.

I was reading the postgame thread on reddit and couldn't believe my eyes lmao. So many Cleveland cry babies complaining about Coby flopping (lol what?), and some even went as far as saying he's a Harden and Embiid level flopper. And then whenever anyone points out that they have Donovan Mitchell, they just keep bringing up that Craig block that the refs missed. It's embarrassing.

I guess Coby is supposed to take every contact and never react, so that teams can just keep hacking him without getting anything whistled on them.

[drosestruts]

This Cavs team really rubs me the wrong way, and I think it's a combination of their players and their fans. I've read so many comments online since last night that Coby White is some big-time flopper, which is rich coming from a team with Donovan Mitchell. Have some self awareness.

I was reading the postgame thread on reddit and couldn't believe my eyes lmao. So many Cleveland cry babies complaining about Coby flopping (lol what?), and some even went as far as saying he's a Harden and Embiid level flopper. And then whenever anyone points out that they have Donovan Mitchell, they just keep bringing up that Craig block that the refs missed. It's embarrassing.

I guess Coby is supposed to take every contact and never react, so that teams can just keep hacking him without getting anything whistled on them.

Yeah still have PTSD from Mitchell shooting 25 free throws against us in his 71 point game.

But Coby getting 6 FTAs in a game is some "Embiid level flopping"

[Guru]

Vuc is the 14th highest paid on average C in the league. To act like he is on a terrible deal, and that he is some albatross destroying this team is just nonsense.

There is too much binary thinking on this board. Players are not all or nothing.

[sco]

This Cavs team really rubs me the wrong way, and I think it's a combination of their players and their fans. I've read so many comments online since last night that Coby White is some big-time flopper, which is rich coming from a team with Donovan Mitchell. Have some self awareness.

I was reading the postgame thread on reddit and couldn't believe my eyes lmao. So many Cleveland cry babies complaining about Coby flopping (lol what?), and some even went as far as saying he's a Harden and Embiid level flopper. And then whenever anyone points out that they have Donovan Mitchell, they just keep bringing up that Craig block that the refs missed. It's embarrassing.

I guess Coby is supposed to take every contact and never react, so that teams can just keep hacking him without getting anything whistled on them.

Yeah still have PTSD from Mitchell shooting 25 free throws against us in his 71 point game.

But Coby getting 6 FTAs in a game is some "Embiid level flopping"

Honestly, Coby is flopping a lot more this year, but it's too his credit. He is definitely seeking out contact more this year. IMO, the big hair excentuates the his acting skill. It's all part of today's game.

He hasn't achieved Demar level flopping, where his shot follow-through includes falling on the court, but if the refs want to give you gifts...To be fair, Demar is amazing at getting his jumpers to go in, even with contact.

[MrSparkle]

Is there a video clip of the Coby pass?

[madvillian]

Vuc sucks, AKME sucks on trying to stay competitive w a mediocre team. Love Coby, hope to see continued growth for Ayo in terms of driving. First game watched in a while since it was a national telecast and feel NBA product isnt very good anymore and watching the dumb reffing, can see why. Just watching Mitchell get treated like the 06 Wade vs Mavs was ridiculous. Felt like I was watching the sequel to the Tim Donaghey special. Honestly, Bulls would have won otherwise, IMO. Also, why did one of leaders such as Craig/Drummond not put Niang in his place when he was trying to bully Coby and why the freak did Coby get a tech on that, smh.

Coby will be an all-star next year if continued growth!

Mitchell always gets so many calls against us. I watch a lot of games for fantasy interest and the NBA imo, needs to figure some things out on how contact is officiated. The offense has too much of an advantage now. Maybe bring back the full handcheck and also change the rules on how you can put hands on guys in the paint.

[Stratmaster]

The Boozer we had for the first 2 years equalled this year's Vuc in everything, but was more efficient at scoring. The difference was probably worth a couple of games per year. Utah Boozer might have been +5 games though. That player was genuinely good.

By Year 3 for the Bulls Booz is where Vuc is now, which was why Thibs started to pull him down the stretch.

Correct as far as Booz in a vacuum. On this team, which has no starting caliber PF, you are comparing: Drum/Booz to Vuc/Williams (or currently Vuc/Caruso, where if we had a PF Caruso would strengthen the wing rotation). That's worth way more than 2 wins.

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[Stratmaster]

This Cavs team really rubs me the wrong way, and I think it's a combination of their players and their fans. I've read so many comments online since last night that Coby White is some big-time flopper, which is rich coming from a team with Donovan Mitchell. Have some self awareness.

I was reading the postgame thread on reddit and couldn't believe my eyes lmao. So many Cleveland cry babies complaining about Coby flopping (lol what?), and some even went as far as saying he's a Harden and Embiid level flopper. And then whenever anyone points out that they have Donovan Mitchell, they just keep bringing up that Craig block that the refs missed. It's embarrassing.

I guess Coby is supposed to take every contact and never react, so that teams can just keep hacking him without getting anything whistled on them.

They aren't wrong. But everybody does it to some level. They are just mad because Coby is really good at it.

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