Zach/DeMar/Vuc in 2024/2025

[pipfan]

I am resigned to the fact we will be an average team for the next few years. Our only real hope of becoming a contender in the next 5 years is to get SUPER lucky with some draft pick or PWill explosion. VERY low chance of happening, and I don't think AKME are going to rebuild any time soon, so it's game-to-game, hope we make a bit of noise in the playoffs for me

[LateNight]

I’m open to Demar and Vuc returning - but, if the terms aren’t good or we can find a good trade, I’m also fine with none of them.

I would I like to move on from Zach. I respect his attitude and he’s had entertaining moments - I do not want to build around him as a core piece and prefer Coby in that role, so we should move him

[HearshotKDS]

I jumped the gun and voted what I think will happen vs. what I want. I think they bring back Demar and hold on to Vuc - I cant bring myself to believe the FO has the stones to attempt selling a big 3 return and I would have bet money Zach was going to get moved before the deadline this season but that ofc didnt pan out. AKMEs master plan cant be Zach/Demar/Vuc/Ball round 2 right? Right?!

[Stratmaster]

Was thinking about how the Bulls should do going forward?

Assumptions:
1: You will not get back any meaningful player for any of these guys
2: With DeMar, he just walks, so you free up his cap number this year
3: With Zach/Vuc you move for an expiring but nothing else, so you free up their cap number next year
4: If you choose to keep DeMar, he is now on a long term contract at 3/105 (35M per year)

Under those assumptions who are you bringing back?

All 3

EDIT: actually, not Demar at that price

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[Chi town]

So you mean it’s delusional to think we can contend in the short term without those guys? I agree. But I don’t think anyone here thinks otherwise.

Additionally, I don’t see any Bulls fans calling for hanging onto the vets because they think we can turn that into a contender. The argument is always based on being content with competitive basketball and unwilling to go through the (subjective) boredom of rebuilding. No one even talks about contention.

Not what I meant, but still true. I meant it's delusional that we can contend WITH them, but AK can rationalize the return of Ball coupled with the emergence of Coby, etc, to continue to sell his continuity crap, which is what I fully expect despite what Bulls fans want.

It’s absolutely what is going to happen.

But I’ll rage against the futility nonetheless.

Here’s THE issue.

Zach can’t rehab his value beyond expirings here with DDR AND the emergence of Coby and Ayo. Just not enough shots. Ayo and Coby will require even more after a summer of work. If Lonzo returns… even less usage free.

YOU HAVE TO LET DDR WALK to simply have enough shots for Zach to rehab his value. Zach also fits way better with Coby Ayo Pat Lonzo Caruso.

[sco]

Not what I meant, but still true. I meant it's delusional that we can contend WITH them, but AK can rationalize the return of Ball coupled with the emergence of Coby, etc, to continue to sell his continuity crap, which is what I fully expect despite what Bulls fans want.

It’s absolutely what is going to happen.

But I’ll rage against the futility nonetheless.

Here’s THE issue.

Zach can’t rehab his value beyond expirings here with DDR AND the emergence of Coby and Ayo. Just not enough shots. Ayo and Coby will require even more after a summer of work. If Lonzo returns… even less usage free.

YOU HAVE TO LET DDR WALK to simply have enough shots for Zach to rehab his value. Zach also fits way better with Coby Ayo Pat Lonzo Caruso.

I tend to agree, but the way it "could" work would be to have Vuc come off the bench and play a defensive C. Will they, heck no, but they "could". I think Coby, Zach, DDR, AC/Pat, AD would actually work ok.

[Chi town]

It’s absolutely what is going to happen.

But I’ll rage against the futility nonetheless.

Here’s THE issue.

Zach can’t rehab his value beyond expirings here with DDR AND the emergence of Coby and Ayo. Just not enough shots. Ayo and Coby will require even more after a summer of work. If Lonzo returns… even less usage free.

YOU HAVE TO LET DDR WALK to simply have enough shots for Zach to rehab his value. Zach also fits way better with Coby Ayo Pat Lonzo Caruso.

I tend to agree, but the way it "could" work would be to have Vuc come off the bench and play a defensive C. Will they, heck no, but they "could". I think Coby, Zach, DDR, AC/Pat, AD would actually work ok.

No way. No way Vuc willing to come off the bench. Same goes for Zach and DDR.

[kristov]

With the possibility that Lonzo might be able to play next year, that leaves the Bulls with around 30 million below the luxury tax line. So unless they are able to find somewhere to trade Zach or Vuc for cap space that means it will come down to either Derozan or Pat+.

[Midwest219]

Ship Vuc out, Every team runs the score up on this damn dude. Vuc is out-of-date & He's sloppy AF and slow, lately.

DeMar & Zach should stay with Ball coming back, Ball can feed them both. Drummond should be the starting C. Move Zach later If Billy's small ball line-up doesn't work and then launch Donovan and AK into the Sun.
I don't think Lonzo coming off the bench all season long will work If we keep all 3 which means bye-bye Vuc. So, either Billy's small ball has to work or burn.

Ball
Cody
Zach
Deebo
Drummond

[bledredwine]

Unfortunately, we waited too long to trade Zach and his value is at an all time low.

[DuckIII]

What do you mean by start over? Get rid of everyone? Everyone over 25? There are various degrees of that.

I would trade (or already would have traded - we blew it again with Drummond) The Three, AC and Drummond and begin again with Coby, Ayo and Pat (depending on the deal) as the fundamental keepers, plus guys like Bitim, Terry (until he inevitably is allowed to walk) etc.

I would be very open to an exception for AC depending on the trade value. He would either have to have strong independent value or strong booster value when added to one of The 3. I would not trade him merely to start over.

[League Circles]

Was thinking about how the Bulls should do going forward?

Assumptions:
1: You will not get back any meaningful player for any of these guys
2: With DeMar, he just walks, so you free up his cap number this year
3: With Zach/Vuc you move for an expiring but nothing else, so you free up their cap number next year
4: If you choose to keep DeMar, he is now on a long term contract at 3/105 (35M per year)

Under those assumptions who are you bringing back?

Under these (questionable) assumptions, I'm bringing back Zach and maybe Demar. Hard to say for sure though cause a lot depends on whether Drummond and Williams would be back and who the "non-meaningful" player(s) coming back for Vuc are.

I find it to be virtually impossible that no meaningful players would come back in a Zach or Vuc trade (or Demar). Not because I'm so sure teams would give up something meaningful for any of them, but because I heavily doubt there are any teams who could out together a CBA-compliant deal with enough matching salary for guys that are non meaningful.

Hell, I'd probably drop Zach for pure expirings also, but it really depends on the guys coming back, meaningful or not.

[Andi Obst]

Can we turn year 3 on DeMar's deal into a team option? I might be down for that.

And yes, I'm definitely dumping Zach and Vuc for neutral value.

[DropStep]

As Doug pointed out, there is a 0% chance of the Bulls contending, and there's really no visible way to boost that percentage even to 10% within a reasonable period, barring a miraculous Jokic-like draft choice. We are well and truly effed, and it sometimes makes the whole endeavor seem futile. We have talent, and we "compete," and we're not unlikeable, but we'd have a clearer path to contention as an expansion team.

I know this is a Zach/Demar/Vuc thread, but it leads here, for me. (Deep breath) If we are trying to be a contender again, like, ever, more or less (and I'm not at all sure we are), I think it's malpractice not to at least consider the possibility of trading Coby at the deadline next year, when a team could get two cheap playoff runs with him. I know he's the main good thing we have going, and it would hurt the team and hurt us as fans (a lot) to do so. That's why we have to be open to (quietly, hopefully) gauging his value if we want out of the corner we are painted into. He is also our only significantly plus-value contract other than Caruso. We have been particularly bad at trading players at the height of their value because it feels bad to do so, and out of service two the two holy C's - continuity and competing. Soberly considering trading our best player before they get paid and/or decline (DDR/Vuc/Zach style) is what it means to stop doing that and try for a better future. If it really starts to look like Lonzo might come back in any recognizable form, especially, we have a (probably short-term) replacement on the roster already. Unfortunately, Coby is in maybe the most common category of player in the league at the moment, so I'm not sure who is starving for a guy like him.

If the goal is to keep fan(nie)s in seats, it should be off the table. If the goal is to contend, it should be on the table, a year early rather than a year late.

[sco]

As Doug pointed out, there is a 0% chance of the Bulls contending, and there's really no visible way to boost that percentage even to 10% within a reasonable period, barring a miraculous Jokic-like draft choice. We are well and truly effed, and it sometimes makes the whole endeavor seem futile. We have talent, and we "compete," and we're not unlikeable, but we'd have a clearer path to contention as an expansion team.

I know this is a Zach/Demar/Vuc thread, but it leads here, for me. (Deep breath) If we are trying to be a contender again, like, ever, more or less (and I'm not at all sure we are), I think it's malpractice not to at least consider the possibility of trading Coby at the deadline next year, when a team could get two cheap playoff runs with him. I know he's the main good thing we have going, and it would hurt the team and hurt us as fans (a lot) to do so. That's why we have to be open to (quietly, hopefully) gauging his value if we want out of the corner we are painted into. He is also our only significantly plus-value contract other than Caruso. We have been particularly bad at trading players at the height of their value because it feels bad to do so, and out of service two the two holy C's - continuity and competing. Soberly considering trading our best player before they get paid and/or decline (DDR/Vuc/Zach style) is what it means to stop doing that and try for a better future. If it really starts to look like Lonzo might come back in any recognizable form, especially, we have a (probably short-term) replacement on the roster already. Unfortunately, Coby is in maybe the most common category of player in the league at the moment, so I'm not sure who is starving for a guy like him.

If the goal is to keep fan(nie)s in seats, it should be off the table. If the goal is to contend, it should be on the table, a year early rather than a year late.

I am of the mind that AK will never tank, mainly because he won't keep his job through a rebuild and he's smart enough to know that. If there is a reason to tank, it's to keep our protected pick next season, if he doesn't do it this offseason, he never will.

[FriedRise]

What they should've done / should do: move on from all 3, be a little worse for a season or two while you retool around Coby, Ayo, Pat. I honestly don't think the dropoff is gonna be all that much if you fill the roster with NBA players and not a bunch of UPS drivers on a 10-day contract. I think they'll still be in the mix with Atlanta, Brooklyn, Toronto, etc.

What they did: keep everything the same.

What they're gonna do: maybe trade Zach if they get a decent offer, make marginal moves, re-sign DeMar, 4-peat the 9th/10th seed.

I have predicted and accepted this, which is why I'm not gonna be disappointed when it happens. But staying the course is crazy, because even the players were expecting this roster to be broken up. I remember Vooch saying how this is gonna be their last shot, so I'm sure he's as surprised as anybody that the roster is still the exact same halfway through the season.

[MrSparkle]

Well, they didn’t move them at the deadline. This draft is unremarkable (just saw Reed #1 on a mock… wow). The UFAs kind of suck (or make no sense for Chicago, age wise).

Short of moving Zach on draft night, I think this team returns as is, with more re-structuring in 2025/26 once Zach and Lonzo are officially off the books. I don’t know what they plan to do with that cap and aversion to tanking, but they’ll definitely be running out of time with their farm.

[dougthonus]

What do you mean by start over? Get rid of everyone? Everyone over 25? There are various degrees of that.

I would trade (or already would have traded - we blew it again with Drummond) The Three, AC and Drummond and begin again with Coby, Ayo and Pat (depending on the deal) as the fundamental keepers, plus guys like Bitim, Terry (until he inevitably is allowed to walk) etc.

I would be very open to an exception for AC depending on the trade value. He would either have to have strong independent value or strong booster value when added to one of The 3. I would not trade him merely to start over.

More or less I agree, in the past for sure, now that you basically can't trade DeMar because he's a FA, and Vuc/Zach are both possibly "pay to get rid of them", it's a lot more murky. AC you could still get value for. Drummond, I'm a bit indifferent to. I would have been fine trading him for a couple 2nds (and would have chosen this path if it were out there), but I'm fine keeping him and winning more basketball games and enjoying those games more than the worrying about a couple 2nds too, especially if the offer got down to one 2nd.

[League Circles]

I think we have to use AC to dump Vuc or Zach. That would improve our position notably IMO.

[dougthonus]

Was thinking about how the Bulls should do going forward?

Assumptions:
1: You will not get back any meaningful player for any of these guys
2: With DeMar, he just walks, so you free up his cap number this year
3: With Zach/Vuc you move for an expiring but nothing else, so you free up their cap number next year
4: If you choose to keep DeMar, he is now on a long term contract at 3/105 (35M per year)

Under those assumptions who are you bringing back?

Under these (questionable) assumptions, I'm bringing back Zach and maybe Demar. Hard to say for sure though cause a lot depends on whether Drummond and Williams would be back and who the "non-meaningful" player(s) coming back for Vuc are.

I find it to be virtually impossible that no meaningful players would come back in a Zach or Vuc trade (or Demar). Not because I'm so sure teams would give up something meaningful for any of them, but because I heavily doubt there are any teams who could out together a CBA-compliant deal with enough matching salary for guys that are non meaningful.

Hell, I'd probably drop Zach for pure expirings also, but it really depends on the guys coming back, meaningful or not.

It's hard to give accurate assumptions, but those are my best guesses at reality.