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Bears 2024: 5.0 It's Caleb Williams time

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Re: Bears 2024 4.0 

Post#1 » by dice » Sat Mar 30, 2024 3:37 am

HearshotKDS wrote:
AshyLarrysDiaper wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=20

We doing this if Alt/Nabers/Odunze are off the board at 9? The trade value chart has it as roughly equal.


I do that in a heartbeat, I think that sets you up for something like Brian Thomas + Darius Robinson/Adisa Isaac and a 5th, versus something like Verse + Johnny Wilson if you stay at 9 and 75. Or Maybe Verse falls to 14 anyway and you get Verse + Troy Franklin/Xavier Legette + a 5th instead of settling for the 3rd round WR.

i do the trade in a heartbeat if the WRs are gone (after asking around for better offers, of course - you'd probably get more if alt is still on the board). without even looking at who might potentially be available at the acquired draft slots
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Re: Bears 2024 4.0 

Post#2 » by dice » Sat Mar 30, 2024 3:41 am

JockItch43 wrote:
sco wrote:
Dresden wrote:I saw a mock today that had 3 QB's and 3 WRs in first 6 picks. That would leave Alt, Turner and likely JJ McCarthy. I think some team will trade up to get JJ, so one of Alt or Turner should be there at 9. But JJ is kind of the wild card.

I would be happy if all 3 WR's go ahead of 9 so that we go another direction. I just think Edge and LT are better picks for us if we can nab one of the top guys.



JJ going before our pick is huge too if we are hoping a guy like Alt or Turner falls to us or really any of these top end guys. If he falls to 9 we have to listen to offers at that point to trade down. He's the wildcard for sure.

The Allen trade was huge because now we can be much more flexible in the direction we go.

we still need a starting WR (particularly long-term) and we still need a starting EDGE. so the allen trade didn't do much at all draft-wise...except take away a draft pick
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Re: Bears 2024 4.0 

Post#3 » by dice » Sat Mar 30, 2024 3:42 am

_txchilibowl_ wrote:
Betta Bulleavit wrote:So let’s say the top 8 picks shape out like this:

Bears - Williams
Commanders - Daniels
Broncos (via trade) - Maye
Vikings (via trade) - McCarthy
Chargers - MHJ
Giants - Bowers
Titans - Alt
Falcons - Turner

That would leave Nabors, Odunze, Fashanu, Latu and Verse all on the board at 9. Where do you go?



There's zero chance that Bowers goes ahead of Nabers imo. Would be shocking.

not much chance turner goes ahead of nabers either, frankly
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Re: Bears 2024 4.0 

Post#4 » by dice » Sat Mar 30, 2024 3:50 am

NecessaryEvil wrote:
Read on Twitter

bears over/under will probably be 9 wins. a cinderella story would take at least 12 wins and/or a conference finals appearance
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Re: Bears 2024 4.0 

Post#5 » by dice » Sat Mar 30, 2024 3:52 am

Chi town wrote:If we draft Alt what could we get for Braxton Jones?

2nd rounder. some re-drafts online have jones as a 1st round pick. but half his contract is gone and he's on track to get a very nice 2nd contract. but jones is frankly the best move of poles's tenure (unless we consider the flat-out luck of the trade that got us this year's #1), so i'd like to think he'd take pride in that and trade back for a haul if alt is still there
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Re: Bears 2024 4.0 

Post#6 » by dice » Sat Mar 30, 2024 3:58 am

ThisGuyFawkes wrote:If they're going to argue importance, it's probably going to be Edge or LT. Just depends on how they have them ranked individually and who is available at our pick. Ideally I'd like to trade down and draft Latu in the 20's while gaining a 2nd to spend on WR or LT. I also would be enamored with Latu and DT in 2nd round (maybe Maason Smith who NecessaryEvil mentioned earlier). I feel like Caleb has "enough" on the offensive side, but if we can make the d-line elite, then look out. Field possession and defensive turnovers are also super important for a young QB.

I also love a good defense so I'm perhaps a bit biased there. Should be fun to discuss no matter how it shakes out.

three high round DTs over two drafts?
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Re: Bears 2024 4.0 

Post#7 » by dice » Sat Mar 30, 2024 4:05 am

Almost Retired wrote:
ThisGuyFawkes wrote:This is one of the reasons why I don't have any social media accounts. There's too much on there that makes me angry. I do check Bleacher Report sometimes and if I see a tweet that I want to share, I'll copy/paste it here.

I don't want to get too much into politics, since this forum is one of my last refuges from that, but man do I hope that we don't move backwards as a country.



We've been going backwards for decades. No matter who is in nominal power. The politicians and the economic elites get ever richer, while we all see our standard of living dropping because we are losing out to inflation. Young people today have it far worse than I did at the same age. Huge student loan debt. Rents and housing prices out of control. They can't form families or buy houses like was once the case. This isn't a political observation. It's a statement of reality.

1) we (the non-elites) haven't been going backwards for decades. we've flatlined while the rich have gotten much richer. the national wealth has more than DOUBLED (adjusted for inflation!). and the wealthy have gotten all of it. DESPITE longer hours being worked

2) definitely harder for younger people debt-wise. the value of a degree has gone DOWN despite skyrocketing tuition. but they're starting out with higher salaries (again, adjusted for inflation). and, of course, society is much better in some ways than it was decades ago. but the wealth gap combined with our culture of wealth flaunting makes most people FEEL like they're going backwards

it largely comes back to union participation:

Image
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Re: Bears 2024 4.0 

Post#8 » by dice » Sat Mar 30, 2024 4:22 am

Almost Retired wrote:Poles has done a great job of improving the here and now while keeping an eye on the future. With Waldon's hire, the acquisition of Keenan Allen and Everett, and the additions of some veteran help on the O-Line it looks like Poles and Flus expect to contend this year, even with a rookie QB. The Bears will be facing Love twice a year. Goff twice a year. The Vikes might move up to draft a QB. We have to face the Rams with Stafford, the Texans with Stroud, the Colts with Richardson, the Jaguars with Lawrence, the Cardinals with Murray and perhaps Marvin Harrison Jr or Nabors, the 49ers with Purdy. Nothing holds back a QB more than pressure. You can have the best secondary in the league but good QBs will pick you apart if they have enough time. And it's ofter QB pressure that causes the interceptions the DBs get all the glory for. That being said I think the Bears best move would be to take Turner at #9 if he's available. If not a trade back to acquire at least another 3rd rounder and taking Verse. We have to have maximum pressure on opposing QBs. Another EDGE will make Sweat more effective and it elevates the entire D-Line. Caleb will have enough weapons this season. Poles kept control of the salary cap situation. If Keenan Allen is too expensive to keep we take the compensatory 4th round pick back and look for another FA WR next year. Or we use our 1st rounder next year on a WR. I see the argument for drafting Odunze and grooming him to be WR -2 next season. But he's a luxury pick the would make more sense if we were still building from the ground up. We are beyond that. To more effectively compete this upcoming season we need an effective EDGE to play opposite of Sweat. I think Verse or even Latu would be a big upgrade and will help us win more games sooner.

secondary is far more important than line play, as i've posted the data on. prime example is last year's eagles, who absolutely fell apart due to their secondary (including the play of byars, unfortunately). despite a terrific D-line

i don't consider WR3 a luxury, especially when WR2 is over 30 and unsigned beyond the coming season. speaking of WR2, i've heard that the compensatory for letting allen walk would be a 5th due to his age and position, but i'd love to see some actual rules or knowledgeable reporting on that
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Re: Bears 2024 4.0 

Post#9 » by Chi town » Sat Mar 30, 2024 4:29 am

dice wrote:
ThisGuyFawkes wrote:If they're going to argue importance, it's probably going to be Edge or LT. Just depends on how they have them ranked individually and who is available at our pick. Ideally I'd like to trade down and draft Latu in the 20's while gaining a 2nd to spend on WR or LT. I also would be enamored with Latu and DT in 2nd round (maybe Maason Smith who NecessaryEvil mentioned earlier). I feel like Caleb has "enough" on the offensive side, but if we can make the d-line elite, then look out. Field possession and defensive turnovers are also super important for a young QB.

I also love a good defense so I'm perhaps a bit biased there. Should be fun to discuss no matter how it shakes out.

three high round DTs over two drafts?


Trading back and getting Latu had been my play as well. I think Latu will have the biggest impact in year one of any player on D side of draft.

Also think there won’t be enough footballs for a rookie WR to really shine but a 2nd rounder like McConkey would be perfect to keep the chains moving.

Odunze screams Poles player with football character. Think he will be there and be the pick.
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Re: Bears 2024 4.0 

Post#10 » by CROBulls » Sat Mar 30, 2024 11:27 am

Chi town wrote:
dice wrote:
ThisGuyFawkes wrote:If they're going to argue importance, it's probably going to be Edge or LT. Just depends on how they have them ranked individually and who is available at our pick. Ideally I'd like to trade down and draft Latu in the 20's while gaining a 2nd to spend on WR or LT. I also would be enamored with Latu and DT in 2nd round (maybe Maason Smith who NecessaryEvil mentioned earlier). I feel like Caleb has "enough" on the offensive side, but if we can make the d-line elite, then look out. Field possession and defensive turnovers are also super important for a young QB.

I also love a good defense so I'm perhaps a bit biased there. Should be fun to discuss no matter how it shakes out.

three high round DTs over two drafts?


Trading back and getting Latu had been my play as well. I think Latu will have the biggest impact in year one of any player on D side of draft.

Also think there won’t be enough footballs for a rookie WR to really shine but a 2nd rounder like McConkey would be perfect to keep the chains moving.

Odunze screams Poles player with football character. Think he will be there and be the pick.

You trade back and draft Latu, yes you gonna get in return possibly great impact player. But in reality you waiting and praying before each game that he is healthy just like with Jenkins. How many those kind of players you truly want on a team. Best ability is availabilty.

I trust Poles to do right decision. He is certainly picking blue chipper with #9. Trading down is possiblity, but next year we gonna have so many picks. How much rookies and 2nd year players we need? How young we truly need to go.
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Re: Bears 2024 4.0 

Post#11 » by dougthonus » Sat Mar 30, 2024 12:32 pm

dice wrote:1) we (the non-elites) haven't been going backwards for decades. we've flatlined while the rich have gotten much richer. the national wealth has more than DOUBLED (adjusted for inflation!). and the wealthy have gotten all of it. DESPITE longer hours being worked

2) definitely harder for younger people debt-wise. the value of a degree has gone DOWN despite skyrocketing tuition. but they're starting out with higher salaries (again, adjusted for inflation). and, of course, society is much better in some ways than it was decades ago. but the wealth gap combined with out culture of wealth flaunting makes most people FEEL like they're going backwards


Going backwards is probably a relative term.

If you view all the people in this country, the middle class has been shrinking in size and relative power to the upper class for decades. I would call that going backwards.

Has technology made it so that even with that gap that absolute quality of environment is higher? Yes, absolutely true. That said, most people probably measure on a relative vs an absolute scale. (ie, we look at what we have relative to others, not relative to a less technologically advanced society from 30 years ago).

That said, it's not changing any time soon. AI is going to exacerbate the problem massively. The wealthy fully control all the politicians that would theoretically have the power to change it. It's hilarious how little we punish the wealthy for major crimes because they can buy their way out of everything too, but it is what it is, powerful people have no real rules. It's always been that way, we just pretend it isn't sometimes.
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Re: Bears 2024 4.0 

Post#12 » by sco » Sat Mar 30, 2024 1:24 pm

dice wrote:
Almost Retired wrote:
ThisGuyFawkes wrote:This is one of the reasons why I don't have any social media accounts. There's too much on there that makes me angry. I do check Bleacher Report sometimes and if I see a tweet that I want to share, I'll copy/paste it here.

I don't want to get too much into politics, since this forum is one of my last refuges from that, but man do I hope that we don't move backwards as a country.



We've been going backwards for decades. No matter who is in nominal power. The politicians and the economic elites get ever richer, while we all see our standard of living dropping because we are losing out to inflation. Young people today have it far worse than I did at the same age. Huge student loan debt. Rents and housing prices out of control. They can't form families or buy houses like was once the case. This isn't a political observation. It's a statement of reality.

1) we (the non-elites) haven't been going backwards for decades. we've flatlined while the rich have gotten much richer. the national wealth has more than DOUBLED (adjusted for inflation!). and the wealthy have gotten all of it. DESPITE longer hours being worked

2) definitely harder for younger people debt-wise. the value of a degree has gone DOWN despite skyrocketing tuition. but they're starting out with higher salaries (again, adjusted for inflation). and, of course, society is much better in some ways than it was decades ago. but the wealth gap combined with out culture of wealth flaunting makes most people FEEL like they're going backwards

it largely comes back to union participation:

Image

No argument on the growing disparity and the impact that declining union participation plays, but I think that a factor that you fail to mention is that much of the decline in union participation came with exporting of union jobs overseas. And I am a fan of the benefits that organized labor, but until we can solve for the impact that some other country with even more exploitable labor forces, the race to lower minimum pay will continue regardless of how many here join unions. The real issues with jobs going overseas are rising healthcare costs and pension costs (which came about because we keep living longer - so not all bad).

The same can be said for the highest paid people. If we create a big tax or cap disparity vs. other countries, those jobs/people will go overseas as well; although, IMO, there is still room there to do some leveling to be sure.

Now on your education point, while our Universities are the best in the world, their system is broken. There, the system is become too expensive with the pension plans for faculty outpacing inflation by a lot. I personally think, rather than the Gov't paying for the cost of college, it should create a massive online school that is free for all to compete with colleges. Technology is there. The cost would be a lot less and it could help a lot more people. My personal POV is that way too much of the cost of college is tied to "the college experience", which has gone way too upscale with student housing and meal costs, coupled with a party culture that works against the education side.

In an attempt to bring this back home. I will note that there is a non-zero correlation between jobs going overseas and the decline of the Bears.
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Re: Bears 2024 4.0 

Post#13 » by molepharmer » Sat Mar 30, 2024 1:45 pm

NecessaryEvil wrote:
Read on Twitter

Not sure what I'm more impressed by, Latu beating blocks all the time or Williams' ability to make Latu miss while in the pocket.
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Re: Bears 2024 4.0 

Post#14 » by Michael Jackson » Sat Mar 30, 2024 2:29 pm

molepharmer wrote:
NecessaryEvil wrote:
Read on Twitter

Not sure what I'm more impressed by, Latu beating blocks all the time or Williams' ability to make Latu miss while in the pocket.



I agree both are impressive. Granted that is college... watching him work in the pocket against an elite was pretty awesome
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Re: Bears 2024 4.0 

Post#15 » by HearshotKDS » Sat Mar 30, 2024 3:14 pm

molepharmer wrote:
NecessaryEvil wrote:
Read on Twitter

Not sure what I'm more impressed by, Latu beating blocks all the time or Williams' ability to make Latu miss while in the pocket.

Williams has that Aaron Rodgers-esque greased pig in the pocket evasion that was so frustrating to watch for a decade+. He's not as athletic as Fields is but he looks a lot more savvy in using his legs and navigating within pocket, were going to see a lot more clips like these where you could basically put Benny Hill music on in the background and feel bad for the DL. It would be nice to be on the good end of that scenario for once.
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Re: Bears 2024 4.0 

Post#16 » by JockItch43 » Sat Mar 30, 2024 3:43 pm

HearshotKDS wrote:
molepharmer wrote:
NecessaryEvil wrote:
Read on Twitter

Not sure what I'm more impressed by, Latu beating blocks all the time or Williams' ability to make Latu miss while in the pocket.

Williams has that Aaron Rodgers-esque greased pig in the pocket evasion that was so frustrating to watch for a decade+. He's not as athletic as Fields is but he looks a lot more savvy in using his legs and navigating within pocket, were going to see a lot more clips like these where you could basically put Benny Hill music on in the background and feel bad for the DL. It would be nice to be on the good end of that scenario for once.


While CW doesn't have the top end speed of Justin, nor is he the pure running QB that Justin is, I think he's a lot more shifty. Besides his patent in the pocket spin move, Justin basically just runs away from defenders with his speed. CW jukes like Barry freakin Sanders sometimes in comparison to avoid defenders. He was a RB as a kid and you can tell by his movements he has a natural aptitude. He's going to make people look stupid far more often than JF1. Both QB's are mobile, just very different styles of play when using that mobility.
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Re: Bears 2024 4.0 

Post#17 » by JockItch43 » Sat Mar 30, 2024 3:51 pm

dice wrote:
JockItch43 wrote:
sco wrote:I would be happy if all 3 WR's go ahead of 9 so that we go another direction. I just think Edge and LT are better picks for us if we can nab one of the top guys.



JJ going before our pick is huge too if we are hoping a guy like Alt or Turner falls to us or really any of these top end guys. If he falls to 9 we have to listen to offers at that point to trade down. He's the wildcard for sure.

The Allen trade was huge because now we can be much more flexible in the direction we go.

we still need a starting WR (particularly long-term) and we still need a starting EDGE. so the allen trade didn't do much at all draft-wise...except take away a draft pick


Agreed but the whole point was to do their best to ensure CW has adequate weaponry to set him up for success as best as they can since they have so much riding on the decision they made with the QB position. Trading a 4th for a 2nd number one receiver makes it far less of a need to draft a blue chip WR guy to get that 2nd elite WR since we already have that in the bag. We still need a 3rd receiver, I agree, as I doubt they will count on Scott for that, but that guy can be had later in the draft or via other means if they decide to go BPA at 9 and favor a OT or Edge there at 9 instead of a WR.

While Allen isn't a long term solution I get that, but at the minimum he buys us another year to find that WR1b to Moore's WR1a if they choose to go edge or OT instead with that 9th overall either at 9 or with a trade back.
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Re: Bears 2024 4.0 

Post#18 » by Dresden » Sat Mar 30, 2024 4:00 pm

dice wrote:
JockItch43 wrote:
sco wrote:I would be happy if all 3 WR's go ahead of 9 so that we go another direction. I just think Edge and LT are better picks for us if we can nab one of the top guys.



JJ going before our pick is huge too if we are hoping a guy like Alt or Turner falls to us or really any of these top end guys. If he falls to 9 we have to listen to offers at that point to trade down. He's the wildcard for sure.

The Allen trade was huge because now we can be much more flexible in the direction we go.

we still need a starting WR (particularly long-term) and we still need a starting EDGE. so the allen trade didn't do much at all draft-wise...except take away a draft pick


The hell it didn't. Without Allen, we'd definitely need to get a WR2 that's ready to go on day one. Now we have the luxury of taking BPA, and we can get a WR3 with a later round pick.
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Re: Bears 2024 4.0 

Post#19 » by Dresden » Sat Mar 30, 2024 4:19 pm

dice wrote:
Almost Retired wrote:
ThisGuyFawkes wrote:This is one of the reasons why I don't have any social media accounts. There's too much on there that makes me angry. I do check Bleacher Report sometimes and if I see a tweet that I want to share, I'll copy/paste it here.

I don't want to get too much into politics, since this forum is one of my last refuges from that, but man do I hope that we don't move backwards as a country.



We've been going backwards for decades. No matter who is in nominal power. The politicians and the economic elites get ever richer, while we all see our standard of living dropping because we are losing out to inflation. Young people today have it far worse than I did at the same age. Huge student loan debt. Rents and housing prices out of control. They can't form families or buy houses like was once the case. This isn't a political observation. It's a statement of reality.

1) we (the non-elites) haven't been going backwards for decades. we've flatlined while the rich have gotten much richer. the national wealth has more than DOUBLED (adjusted for inflation!). and the wealthy have gotten all of it. DESPITE longer hours being worked

2) definitely harder for younger people debt-wise. the value of a degree has gone DOWN despite skyrocketing tuition. but they're starting out with higher salaries (again, adjusted for inflation). and, of course, society is much better in some ways than it was decades ago. but the wealth gap combined with out culture of wealth flaunting makes most people FEEL like they're going backwards

it largely comes back to union participation:

Image


I heartily agree. Although some people will argue union membership/income gap doesn't prove cause and effect, it strains credulity not to see there is some correlation there. And one large factor affecting union membership has been the ability and willingness of manufacturing companies to move their plants either to the southern, non-union states, or more crucially, overseas where labor costs are a fraction of what they are in the US. The tax structure is another big reason for the growing income disparity as well.
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Re: Bears 2024 4.0 

Post#20 » by Dresden » Sat Mar 30, 2024 4:35 pm

sco wrote:
Now on your education point, while our Universities are the best in the world, their system is broken. There, the system is become too expensive with the pension plans for faculty outpacing inflation by a lot. I personally think, rather than the Gov't paying for the cost of college, it should create a massive online school that is free for all to compete with colleges. Technology is there. The cost would be a lot less and it could help a lot more people. My personal POV is that way too much of the cost of college is tied to "the college experience", which has gone way too upscale with student housing and meal costs, coupled with a party culture that works against the education side.

In an attempt to bring this back home. I will note that there is a non-zero correlation between jobs going overseas and the decline of the Bears.


I agree 100% with your points on how higher education has gone off on the wrong track. It's like going to a luxury resort now to go to college. Just get good faculty, forget all the technology, and cut down the bureaucracy, and put the emphasis on the classroom.

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