Bulls vs Wizards 7pm CT

[CROBulls]

I heard United center was full again. I dont understand why people go watch this team. People stop going to games, maybe eventually your Bulls will have team worth of your attention.

This is not it. I didnt watch full single game last 9 months on broadcast, and I feel I didnt miss anything. It's a same team, same players, same actions, same record. No improvement. I just watch highlights and watch discussion here and I am already over it.

[MrSparkle]

I heard United center was full again. I dont understand why people go watch this team. People stop going to games, maybe eventually your Bulls will have team worth of your attention.

This is not it. I didnt watch full single game last 9 months on broadcast, and I feel I didnt miss anything. It's a same team, same players, same actions, same record. No improvement. I just watch highlights and watch discussion here and I am already over it.

Well, Demar deserves to have his jersey retired for making it an interesting place in 4th quarters for a few weeks out of the year.

But beyond that, yeah - I pity the people attending Bulls games… or envious of their expendable money…

[drosestruts]

In a metro area of 10+ million people + business travel + leisure travel, it's not really surprising that the Bulls are able to sell out their stadiums. All it requires is 0.2% of people in the area to decide to go to a game.

[Stratmaster]

If AK was asking for a "superstar return" for Zach then that was foolish.

I originally mentioned Zach because it's been a bad year for him and for the team overall. I can't blame Donovan for that and I don't put all the blame on Zach either (he can't help being injured).

What was the excuse for Billy last season?

Billy has used Lavine as his scapegoat since he got here. Remember, "we want to see how the team looks without Lavine"? Who do you think has been feeding that to the front office?

What is the first rule for a new head coach? Establish and develop your relationships with your best players. At least, that is usually what they have to do to keep their jobs.

Now that Zach is out, it is the injury excuse. Now he talks about how much the team misses all the injured players. Essentially, Lavine was the scapegoat then because he was playing. Now he is the excuse because he isn't playing. Which is it, Billy?

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Over a year ago I asked: What would Zach's career look like if DDR never came to Chicago? I think it's possible that Zach would be in year 10 with ZERO playoff games. I know it's not entirely on him and that many of the teams he's been on have been bad. However, he hasn't proven himself to be the kind of player who can carry a team (be the #1 option), but I don't think he's a bad player.

When it comes to Donovan I doubt that he came here and immediately alienated Zach. I'm not sure if there really is any beef between the two, even though I know there have been reports of the two of them clashing at times.

You think Billy told AK to trade him? I have my doubts about that too and, if true, why didn't AK trade him last year? I guess you could argue that he asked for too much ("Superstar haul"), but like I previously said that's foolish to expect. Plus, if AK really believed that Zach doesn't fit why didn't he figure out some kind of deal so both parties can move on...?

I cited substantiated reporting. You are posing what-ifs and your "feels". As far as whether Billy "told AK" to trade him. No coach gets to tell the GM what to do. Do I think Billy was part of the "whether to trade Lavine" discussions, and encouraged it. Probably. But again, that (either way) is not substantiated reporting. It is, however, at least a guess based on the other substantiated reporting. versus your just stating "I don't think so".

[Dan Z]

What was the excuse for Billy last season?

Billy has used Lavine as his scapegoat since he got here. Remember, "we want to see how the team looks without Lavine"? Who do you think has been feeding that to the front office?

What is the first rule for a new head coach? Establish and develop your relationships with your best players. At least, that is usually what they have to do to keep their jobs.

Now that Zach is out, it is the injury excuse. Now he talks about how much the team misses all the injured players. Essentially, Lavine was the scapegoat then because he was playing. Now he is the excuse because he isn't playing. Which is it, Billy?

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Over a year ago I asked: What would Zach's career look like if DDR never came to Chicago? I think it's possible that Zach would be in year 10 with ZERO playoff games. I know it's not entirely on him and that many of the teams he's been on have been bad. However, he hasn't proven himself to be the kind of player who can carry a team (be the #1 option), but I don't think he's a bad player.

When it comes to Donovan I doubt that he came here and immediately alienated Zach. I'm not sure if there really is any beef between the two, even though I know there have been reports of the two of them clashing at times.

You think Billy told AK to trade him? I have my doubts about that too and, if true, why didn't AK trade him last year? I guess you could argue that he asked for too much ("Superstar haul"), but like I previously said that's foolish to expect. Plus, if AK really believed that Zach doesn't fit why didn't he figure out some kind of deal so both parties can move on...?

I cited substantiated reporting. You are posing what-ifs and your "feels". As far as whether Billy "told AK" to trade him. No coach gets to tell the GM what to do. Do I think Billy was part of the "whether to trade Lavine" discussions, and encouraged it. Probably. But again, that (either way) is not substantiated reporting. It is, however, at least a guess based on the other substantiated reporting. versus your just stating "I don't think so".

That's because I doubt someone is hired for a new job and immediately tells his boss to fire someone. How many times do you think that happens? I bet it's very rare.

Over time did Donovan talk to AK and they both decided to trade Zach? Probably, but you think Donovan has been pushing for that the entire time?

[dougthonus]

That's because I doubt someone is hired for a new job and immediately tells his boss to fire someone. How many times do you think that happens? I bet it's very rare.

Not that it matters much, because I agree with your overall point that BD probably wanted Zach, but suggesting staffing changes is probably literally one of the first things I do after an evaluation when entering a new managerial job. I'd also guess in this context of coach/GM that the coach gives his opinion nearly immediately on what types of players he wants.

Over time did Donovan talk to AK and they both decided to trade Zach? Probably, but you think Donovan has been pushing for that the entire time?

Probably not. Worth noting that the Donovan coached Zach for two full seasons before we extended him. The Bulls were also playing really well that 2nd season with LaVine a big piece of it.

[Dan Z]

That's because I doubt someone is hired for a new job and immediately tells his boss to fire someone. How many times do you think that happens? I bet it's very rare.

Not that it matters much, because I agree with your overall point that BD probably wanted Zach, but suggesting staffing changes is probably literally one of the first things I do after an evaluation when entering a new managerial job. I'd also guess in this context of coach/GM that the coach gives his opinion nearly immediately on what types of players he wants.

Over time did Donovan talk to AK and they both decided to trade Zach? Probably, but you think Donovan has been pushing for that the entire time?

Probably not. Worth noting that the Donovan coached Zach for two full seasons before we extended him. The Bulls were also playing really well that 2nd season with LaVine a big piece of it.

It seems odd to hire a coach if said coach admits that he doesn't like one of the top players on the team (during the interview process). Then a few years later the team signs that coach to a long term deal and the player to a max contract.

[dougthonus]

It seems odd to hire a coach if said coach admits that he doesn't like one of the top players on the team (during the interview process). Then a few years later the team signs that coach to a long term deal and the player to a max contract.

Yeah, like I said, I agree that Donovan was almost certainly not anti-Zach or else they'd have moved him prior to extension. He had two all-star appearances in a row prior to that. They could have trivially moved him rather than signing him, but the team was also in the 1st place in the East at the time.

The likely scenario is that that the Bulls were basically just in on Zach until Zach wasn't in on the Bulls.

[Stratmaster]

Over a year ago I asked: What would Zach's career look like if DDR never came to Chicago? I think it's possible that Zach would be in year 10 with ZERO playoff games. I know it's not entirely on him and that many of the teams he's been on have been bad. However, he hasn't proven himself to be the kind of player who can carry a team (be the #1 option), but I don't think he's a bad player.

When it comes to Donovan I doubt that he came here and immediately alienated Zach. I'm not sure if there really is any beef between the two, even though I know there have been reports of the two of them clashing at times.

You think Billy told AK to trade him? I have my doubts about that too and, if true, why didn't AK trade him last year? I guess you could argue that he asked for too much ("Superstar haul"), but like I previously said that's foolish to expect. Plus, if AK really believed that Zach doesn't fit why didn't he figure out some kind of deal so both parties can move on...?

I cited substantiated reporting. You are posing what-ifs and your "feels". As far as whether Billy "told AK" to trade him. No coach gets to tell the GM what to do. Do I think Billy was part of the "whether to trade Lavine" discussions, and encouraged it. Probably. But again, that (either way) is not substantiated reporting. It is, however, at least a guess based on the other substantiated reporting. versus your just stating "I don't think so".

That's because I doubt someone is hired for a new job and immediately tells his boss to fire someone. How many times do you think that happens? I bet it's very rare.

Over time did Donovan talk to AK and they both decided to trade Zach? Probably, but you think Donovan has been pushing for that the entire time?

No one said what you said. Now you're just moving goalposts.

There is no doubt that Billy alienated Lavine, and that he did it early on.

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[Stratmaster]

That's because I doubt someone is hired for a new job and immediately tells his boss to fire someone. How many times do you think that happens? I bet it's very rare.

Not that it matters much, because I agree with your overall point that BD probably wanted Zach, but suggesting staffing changes is probably literally one of the first things I do after an evaluation when entering a new managerial job. I'd also guess in this context of coach/GM that the coach gives his opinion nearly immediately on what types of players he wants.

Over time did Donovan talk to AK and they both decided to trade Zach? Probably, but you think Donovan has been pushing for that the entire time?

Probably not. Worth noting that the Donovan coached Zach for two full seasons before we extended him. The Bulls were also playing really well that 2nd season with LaVine a big piece of it.

It seems odd to hire a coach if said coach admits that he doesn't like one of the top players on the team (during the interview process). Then a few years later the team signs that coach to a long term deal and the player to a max contract.

Again. No one said what you are saying.

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[Stratmaster]

It seems odd to hire a coach if said coach admits that he doesn't like one of the top players on the team (during the interview process). Then a few years later the team signs that coach to a long term deal and the player to a max contract.

Yeah, like I said, I agree that Donovan was almost certainly not anti-Zach or else they'd have moved him prior to extension. He had two all-star appearances in a row prior to that. They could have trivially moved him rather than signing him, but the team was also in the 1st place in the East at the time.

The likely scenario is that that the Bulls were basically just in on Zach until Zach wasn't in on the Bulls.

That would contradict all the reasonable reporting, which clearly showed the Bulls were done with Zach long before Zach was done with the Bulls.

But you guys get to "feel" whatever you want.

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[dougthonus]

That would contradict all the reasonable reporting, which clearly showed the Bulls were done with Zach long before Zach was done with the Bulls.

But you guys get to "feel" whatever you want.

AKME would have to be a huge moron to be done with Zach and not have moved him at the deadline in 2023 which was the last opportunity to trade him prior to the point where Zach was done with the Bulls.

I don't think the Bulls were in love with Zach, but I think they were still in pretty deep like with him. I could be wrong, maybe AKME are just singularly terrible at their jobs (not much of a stretch) and didn't like him or want him but figured they'd keep him anyway in hopes of trading him later.

[Dan Z]

It seems odd to hire a coach if said coach admits that he doesn't like one of the top players on the team (during the interview process). Then a few years later the team signs that coach to a long term deal and the player to a max contract.

Yeah, like I said, I agree that Donovan was almost certainly not anti-Zach or else they'd have moved him prior to extension. He had two all-star appearances in a row prior to that. They could have trivially moved him rather than signing him, but the team was also in the 1st place in the East at the time.

The likely scenario is that that the Bulls were basically just in on Zach until Zach wasn't in on the Bulls.

That would contradict all the reasonable reporting, which clearly showed the Bulls were done with Zach long before Zach was done with the Bulls.

But you guys get to "feel" whatever you want.

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You cited a quote that the Bulls "gauged trade value" with Zach this past off season and a quote where Donovan wanted to see how the team did without Zach.

When did he say that quote? Was it when Zach got injured? If so, it makes sense to see how that goes (because they had no choice).

You also said that Billy has used Zach as a scapegoat since he got here. That's why I refer to when he was hired because I don't think someone gets interviewed for a job and says they don't like one of the best players on the team. If they did they most likely wouldn't get hired.

If it happened over time then that's what happened. I could see that Zach might get frustrated, but as Doug points out the Bulls decided to sign him to a max contract so on some level they liked him (or pretend to and think signing him gave him trade value).

Where I do agree with you is that Zach isn't a malcontent causing problems. I wouldn't be surprised if he comes back next year and does whatever the team asks of him. My point (a few posts back) is that next season the team will most likely showcase him for a trade and that's not a good way to start the season.

[Stratmaster]

That would contradict all the reasonable reporting, which clearly showed the Bulls were done with Zach long before Zach was done with the Bulls.

But you guys get to "feel" whatever you want.

AKME would have to be a huge moron to be done with Zach and not have moved him at the deadline in 2023 which was the last opportunity to trade him prior to the point where Zach was done with the Bulls.

I don't think the Bulls were in love with Zach, but I think they were still in pretty deep like with him. I could be wrong, maybe AKME are just singularly terrible at their jobs (not much of a stretch) and didn't like him or want him but figured they'd keep him anyway in hopes of trading him later.

They were still desperate to make the playoffs. They started trying to trade him immediately after the season ended.

But again, that isn't what I said. I said Billy Donovan alienated him early on, always pointed at Zach passive aggressively with a wink and a nod as the problem, allowing his star player to be the scapegoat. I will now add that he VERY rarely defended him and responded to criticisms of him by changing the subject. But now he allows the "well we have 40 million on the bench" excuse to propagatethe same way by not addressing it; because it's a great excuse for him.

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[Stratmaster]

Yeah, like I said, I agree that Donovan was almost certainly not anti-Zach or else they'd have moved him prior to extension. He had two all-star appearances in a row prior to that. They could have trivially moved him rather than signing him, but the team was also in the 1st place in the East at the time.

The likely scenario is that that the Bulls were basically just in on Zach until Zach wasn't in on the Bulls.

That would contradict all the reasonable reporting, which clearly showed the Bulls were done with Zach long before Zach was done with the Bulls.

But you guys get to "feel" whatever you want.

Sent from my SM-S911U using RealGM mobile app

You cited a quote that the Bulls "gauged trade value" with Zach this past off season and a quote where Donovan wanted to see how the team did without Zach.

When did he say that quote? Was it when Zach got injured? If so, it makes sense to see how that goes (because they had no choice).

You also said that Billy has used Zach as a scapegoat since he got here. That's why I refer to when he was hired because I don't think someone gets interviewed for a job and says they don't like one of the best players on the team. If they did they most likely wouldn't get hired.

If it happened over time then that's what happened. I could see that Zach might get frustrated, but as Doug points out the Bulls decided to sign him to a max contract so on some level they liked him (or pretend to and think signing him gave him trade value).

Where I do agree with you is that Zach isn't a malcontent causing problems. I wouldn't be surprised if he comes back next year and does whatever the team asks of him. My point (a few posts back) is that next season the team will most likely showcase him for a trade and that's not a good way to start the season.

I never said Billy said that. The front office was reported as saying that and I asked "where do you think they got that from?"

You either aren't reading my comments or are purposely misstating them. Maybe your 4th time will be a charm.

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[Dan Z]

That would contradict all the reasonable reporting, which clearly showed the Bulls were done with Zach long before Zach was done with the Bulls.

But you guys get to "feel" whatever you want.

Sent from my SM-S911U using RealGM mobile app

You cited a quote that the Bulls "gauged trade value" with Zach this past off season and a quote where Donovan wanted to see how the team did without Zach.

When did he say that quote? Was it when Zach got injured? If so, it makes sense to see how that goes (because they had no choice).

You also said that Billy has used Zach as a scapegoat since he got here. That's why I refer to when he was hired because I don't think someone gets interviewed for a job and says they don't like one of the best players on the team. If they did they most likely wouldn't get hired.

If it happened over time then that's what happened. I could see that Zach might get frustrated, but as Doug points out the Bulls decided to sign him to a max contract so on some level they liked him (or pretend to and think signing him gave him trade value).

Where I do agree with you is that Zach isn't a malcontent causing problems. I wouldn't be surprised if he comes back next year and does whatever the team asks of him. My point (a few posts back) is that next season the team will most likely showcase him for a trade and that's not a good way to start the season.

I never said Billy said that. The front office was reported as saying that and I asked "where do you think they got that from?"

You either aren't reading my comments or are purposely misstating them. Maybe your 4th time will be a charm.

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I misread your comment as Billy saying it, but you infer that Donovan is the one who got them to say it.

Billy has used Lavine as his scapegoat since he got here. Remember, "we want to see how the team looks without Lavine"? Who do you think has been feeding that to the front office?

[Stratmaster]

You cited a quote that the Bulls "gauged trade value" with Zach this past off season and a quote where Donovan wanted to see how the team did without Zach.

When did he say that quote? Was it when Zach got injured? If so, it makes sense to see how that goes (because they had no choice).

You also said that Billy has used Zach as a scapegoat since he got here. That's why I refer to when he was hired because I don't think someone gets interviewed for a job and says they don't like one of the best players on the team. If they did they most likely wouldn't get hired.

If it happened over time then that's what happened. I could see that Zach might get frustrated, but as Doug points out the Bulls decided to sign him to a max contract so on some level they liked him (or pretend to and think signing him gave him trade value).

Where I do agree with you is that Zach isn't a malcontent causing problems. I wouldn't be surprised if he comes back next year and does whatever the team asks of him. My point (a few posts back) is that next season the team will most likely showcase him for a trade and that's not a good way to start the season.

I never said Billy said that. The front office was reported as saying that and I asked "where do you think they got that from?"

You either aren't reading my comments or are purposely misstating them. Maybe your 4th time will be a charm.

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I misread your comment as Billy saying it, but you infer that Donovan is the one who got them to say it.

Billy has used Lavine as his scapegoat since he got here. Remember, "we want to see how the team looks without Lavine"? Who do you think has been feeding that to the front office?

You got it! You think the coach was saying he wanted the guy, and the front office was responding, "nah, we want to see how the team looks without him"?

Also, that statement was being made public, even by Stacey King, about wanting to see the Bulls without Zach while the Bulls were trying to trade Zach; before the injury was public. They stopped talking about it when Zach went down and started to use his injury as the new excuse.

They obviously thought they had a done deal at some point.

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[Dan Z]

I never said Billy said that. The front office was reported as saying that and I asked "where do you think they got that from?"

You either aren't reading my comments or are purposely misstating them. Maybe your 4th time will be a charm.

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I misread your comment as Billy saying it, but you infer that Donovan is the one who got them to say it.

Billy has used Lavine as his scapegoat since he got here. Remember, "we want to see how the team looks without Lavine"? Who do you think has been feeding that to the front office?

You got it! You think the coach was saying he wanted the guy, and the front office was responding, "nah, we want to see how the team looks without him"?

Also, that statement was being made public, even by Stacey King, about wanting to see the Bulls without Zach while the Bulls were trying to trade Zach; before the injury was public. They stopped talking about it when Zach went down and started to use his injury as the new excuse.

They obviously thought they had a done deal at some point.

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If there was a deal I wonder what it was.

My main point is that the Bulls will most likely go into next year in worse shape then this season. One reason is that Zach will be showcased for a trade (regardless of the reason).