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jnrjr79 wrote:Fine with most of this, but there is zero point to add a pick to Lonzo or stretch him when you’re heading into the last year of his deal.
Axl Rose wrote:jnrjr79 wrote:Fine with most of this, but there is zero point to add a pick to Lonzo or stretch him when you’re heading into the last year of his deal.
I will die if they stretch Lonzo Ball.
Isn't 3 1/2 years of dead salary enough torture? Stretching that into 8 is a nightmare scenario for me.
PistolP wrote:This is the plan per KCMultiple outlets, including NBC Sports Chicago, reported previously that trading Zach LaVine remains an offseason focus. Karnišovas reiterated his desire to re-sign DeMar DeRozan and Patrick Williams.
A source said the Bulls recently offered DeRozan’s representative a two-year deal at a high annual salary, perhaps as much as $40 million per season. For now, DeRozan is seeking a longer-term deal, but that merely be part of negotiations.
Doctor Drain wrote:Can a butterfly sing?
jnrjr79 wrote:Rose2Boozer wrote:AKME
- DDR will request sign and trade
- No market for Lavine's contract
- Lonzo limbo
- Williams sign QO
- Cashes in Caruso for first round pick
- Draft Holland and Ware
R2B
- DDR sign and trade to the Sixers
- No market for Lavine's contract
- Package Blazers pick to move Lonzo to Hornets or Stretch
- Trade Caruso to the Sixers for a first and two second round picks
- Williams sign QO
- Draft Smith and Pate
- Resign Drummond
Fine with most of this, but there is zero point to add a pick to Lonzo or stretch him when you’re heading into the last year of his deal.
jc23 wrote:the fate of humanity rides on Chicago winning this game.
NecessaryEvil wrote:* Vooch and Zach both have two yrs left. Move them for the best value possible. As soon as possible.
jc23 wrote:the fate of humanity rides on Chicago winning this game.
Chi town wrote:jnrjr79 wrote:2weekswithpay wrote:
Why would the Hawks agree to this?
Are you serious? Zach LaVine is better than Trae Young and they get the 11th pick? Why would the Bulls agree to this?
Trae Young is a loser. No defense. Much life DDR his flopping is no longer getting him FTs. Doesn’t seem like his teammates like to play with him either.
AK will sell shot profile with Trae and Griffin who left the team for “personal reasons” for weeks when he got benched. Trae is hurt a lot too.
Hawks will do this deal because Murray and Lavine are way better than Trae and Lavine is right with Murray
RastaBull wrote:John Collins.
I want John Collins in. And Zach LaVine out.
I love Zach; but I really really love DeMar and would like him back. And this season showed that Coby+Ayo are a really formidable backcourt. And it showed that DDR can play really well with them. The most major downfall night in and night out was rebounding and size in frontcourt. So (1), with Coby+Ayo I'm not so worried about losing Zach (as potent as I think he is, and I hope to see him come back strong). And (2), Collins is big and strong, plays board well (super good first couple seasons, after a decrease over 2 season he had a good year on boards last year) ... and Collins offense isn't iso/ball heavy (lots of ally-oops and moving toward basket) ... and he's got a little bit of a stroke too. It also save 16 mil per year.
Bring back DDR.
Don't care if Pat is back or not; give him qualifying offer and if the contract someone else offers is less than 16/year keep him (otherwise let him walk). If he comes back on that 12-16 deal, then make him 6th man. That I could get excited for (plenty of min at PF and SF ... he's still so talented)
Don't care much about Vuc either way. I'd be willing to see him play with Collins next to him. Vuc is really really good. He's def worth his contract in this league (probably underpaid by just a bit). But he's been horrible in terms of Bulls fit/problems/needs. That may change with another competent strong bodied starter like Collins. However, he's an expendable peice imo.
AC is expendable imo too. LOVE him. But I really want to see Coby and Ayo set as starting backcourt. But I'm happy to keep AC also if it's not worth it.
TRADE idea (tell me if it's ridiculous, who says no; and if there are assets that could push it over):
ATL gets Lavine
CHI gets Collins
UTA gets Trae Young
(works salary-wise ... feel like Utah wouldn't miss Collins too much since they have Lauri and Hendricks at PF ... Utah ready to move for bonafide star and Young fits that profile for sure).
PG- Coby / ? / (Carter)
SG- Ayo / ? / (Terry)
SF-DDR / Pat / (Terry)
PF- Collins / Pat
C- Vuc / ?
Leaves lots of options to take best available talent in draft (but specifically either a guard with top level shooting or a big with impact defense/rebounding potential). You never know, maybe we do jump into top 4; this allows Sarr /Dillingham/Reed as impact options.
AC still fits in that lineup real nicely (long as Billy commits to playing him from bench). But also, allows us to trade AC for impact where we want it after chips fall in draft.
coldfish wrote:Axl Rose wrote:jnrjr79 wrote:Fine with most of this, but there is zero point to add a pick to Lonzo or stretch him when you’re heading into the last year of his deal.
I will die if they stretch Lonzo Ball.
Isn't 3 1/2 years of dead salary enough torture? Stretching that into 8 is a nightmare scenario for me.
If Lonzo doesn't play, can't they medically retire him or collect more insurance money? I would think that they would just do either of those.
Guru wrote:This is a relatively easy offseason with so many pieces already in place. There is a great saying "If you have red paint you paint the barn red." This team is loaded with talent but it's mismatched in many ways. You are set at guard for the foreseeable future
1-White-Had a breakout year
2-Ayo was excellent and a very solid 2nd guard
3-Caruso is a near perfect third guard
Lavine won't be back and is very tradeable in the offseason. His value isn't enormous but it will be there despite his injury. The rest of the league knows what happened here. He shut himself down with a minor injury in order to have some control over his destination....yet he gained no control over his destination this offseason. This is an incredibly shallow free agent pool, if he was a free agent he would be a top 5 guy. He will go somewhere and hopefully bring back some size.
Carter and Terry will round out the guards. That's a more than serviceable unit at the 1-2.
Ball is probably going to give it a go next year or be gone. I don't expect him to do anything but eat cap and a roster spot.
At the 3 DDR will be back. It makes sense for both parties. I doubt it approaches 40 million and would honestly be shocked if its more than 30. From my understanding it makes way more logical sense to sign him and keep the asset then to just let him walk. The way the cap is set up if you let him go you can't replace that money in free agency. DDR is a great player despite his age.
You have some interesting depth at the 3 in Bitim and Drell. Guys who can play in the rotation and be net positives. The other reality is that Patrick Williams might play here.
At the 4 you have Williams who can play here and flashed some tremendous upside while it hasn't been enough. I think he will be back on a deal under 20M. Alot of his negatives seems mental. Craig is ok in rotation here but undersized. Same with Green. Getting a big forward to pair with DDR and Williams makes a lot of sense. Phillips has interesting upside
At the 5 Vuc is a capable starter and not going anywhere. His contract isn't actually bad, the position just isn't in demand. He certainly has warts. You can win with him at C and as many have said the solution is another big to pair with him who is an athletic defender. Drummond and Sonogo are solid backups, Drummond one of the best backup Cs in the league, but they don't give you the defender you need.
1 White-Carter-Ball
2 Ayo-Caruso-Terry
3 DDR-Bitim-Drell-Taylor
4 Williams-Craig-Phillips-Green
5 Vuc-Drummond-Sonogo
So you will be adding 3+ assets to the team this offseason
1-Williams
2-11th pick
3-Whatever you get for LaVine
You will want to essentially remake your PF and C positions without getting rid of Vuc and Williams and get shooting.
I love Nic Claxton and he is a free agent. Exploring a sign and trade there makes some sense if he's interested. He wants to play for a better team. There are rumors that's with the Griz.
Anywhooo....Dalton Knecht at 11 is interesting. Tidjane Salaun is interesting, Filpowski gives us size and shooting, Tyler Smith was someone somebody mentioned that is really intriguing. Not as polished in the frontcourt but a great shooter and better athlete than Filipowski.
Lets imagine you find a way to trade for Claxton. You could easily role back next year with
1 White-Carter
2 Ayo-Caruso
3 DDR-Terry
4 Claxton-Williams
5 Vuc-Smith
dougthonus wrote:Guru wrote:This is a relatively easy offseason with so many pieces already in place. There is a great saying "If you have red paint you paint the barn red." This team is loaded with talent but it's mismatched in many ways. You are set at guard for the foreseeable future
1-White-Had a breakout year
2-Ayo was excellent and a very solid 2nd guard
3-Caruso is a near perfect third guard
Lavine won't be back and is very tradeable in the offseason. His value isn't enormous but it will be there despite his injury. The rest of the league knows what happened here. He shut himself down with a minor injury in order to have some control over his destination....yet he gained no control over his destination this offseason. This is an incredibly shallow free agent pool, if he was a free agent he would be a top 5 guy. He will go somewhere and hopefully bring back some size.
Carter and Terry will round out the guards. That's a more than serviceable unit at the 1-2.
Ball is probably going to give it a go next year or be gone. I don't expect him to do anything but eat cap and a roster spot.
At the 3 DDR will be back. It makes sense for both parties. I doubt it approaches 40 million and would honestly be shocked if its more than 30. From my understanding it makes way more logical sense to sign him and keep the asset then to just let him walk. The way the cap is set up if you let him go you can't replace that money in free agency. DDR is a great player despite his age.
You have some interesting depth at the 3 in Bitim and Drell. Guys who can play in the rotation and be net positives. The other reality is that Patrick Williams might play here.
At the 4 you have Williams who can play here and flashed some tremendous upside while it hasn't been enough. I think he will be back on a deal under 20M. Alot of his negatives seems mental. Craig is ok in rotation here but undersized. Same with Green. Getting a big forward to pair with DDR and Williams makes a lot of sense. Phillips has interesting upside
At the 5 Vuc is a capable starter and not going anywhere. His contract isn't actually bad, the position just isn't in demand. He certainly has warts. You can win with him at C and as many have said the solution is another big to pair with him who is an athletic defender. Drummond and Sonogo are solid backups, Drummond one of the best backup Cs in the league, but they don't give you the defender you need.
1 White-Carter-Ball
2 Ayo-Caruso-Terry
3 DDR-Bitim-Drell-Taylor
4 Williams-Craig-Phillips-Green
5 Vuc-Drummond-Sonogo
So you will be adding 3+ assets to the team this offseason
1-Williams
2-11th pick
3-Whatever you get for LaVine
You will want to essentially remake your PF and C positions without getting rid of Vuc and Williams and get shooting.
I love Nic Claxton and he is a free agent. Exploring a sign and trade there makes some sense if he's interested. He wants to play for a better team. There are rumors that's with the Griz.
Anywhooo....Dalton Knecht at 11 is interesting. Tidjane Salaun is interesting, Filpowski gives us size and shooting, Tyler Smith was someone somebody mentioned that is really intriguing. Not as polished in the frontcourt but a great shooter and better athlete than Filipowski.
Lets imagine you find a way to trade for Claxton. You could easily role back next year with
1 White-Carter
2 Ayo-Caruso
3 DDR-Terry
4 Claxton-Williams
5 Vuc-Smith
The Bulls would be deep in the luxury tax with your plan unless they are able to flip Zach for significant savings of salary in year 1 which seems really unlikely even if they can flip him at all.
Guru wrote:I am pretty sure you yourself had a post about how they could keep DDR and Williams and get rid of ball and keep it under the luxury tax. I am unwilling to spend the time to search for it but I am pretty sure you posted that exact thing.
League Circles wrote:jnrjr79 wrote:PistolP wrote:This is the plan per KC
If they’re willing to re-sign DeMar at $40M, and intending to re-sign Pat, and AK’s statement that the luxury tax would be if the Bulls were a top seed is accurate, then that basically means you would absolutely have to trade Zach into someone’s cap space for very little salary back, because you can’t do the DeMar and Pat deals while keeping Zach-ish salary on the books without going well into the tax.
They might look at stretch waiving Lonzo, or possibly trading him for less salary (that's probably for more years obviously).
coldfish wrote:Axl Rose wrote:jnrjr79 wrote:Fine with most of this, but there is zero point to add a pick to Lonzo or stretch him when you’re heading into the last year of his deal.
I will die if they stretch Lonzo Ball.
Isn't 3 1/2 years of dead salary enough torture? Stretching that into 8 is a nightmare scenario for me.
If Lonzo doesn't play, can't they medically retire him or collect more insurance money? I would think that they would just do either of those.
jnrjr79 wrote:coldfish wrote:Axl Rose wrote:
I will die if they stretch Lonzo Ball.
Isn't 3 1/2 years of dead salary enough torture? Stretching that into 8 is a nightmare scenario for me.
If Lonzo doesn't play, can't they medically retire him or collect more insurance money? I would think that they would just do either of those.
Yeah, if he can’t play, they need the league-appointed NBA physician to conclude it is likely his career is over, and then they can get a medical retirement and get his salary off the books.
However, all the reports are that Lonzo is on track to play, so I don’t know how likely this is.
jnrjr79 wrote:League Circles wrote:jnrjr79 wrote:
If they’re willing to re-sign DeMar at $40M, and intending to re-sign Pat, and AK’s statement that the luxury tax would be if the Bulls were a top seed is accurate, then that basically means you would absolutely have to trade Zach into someone’s cap space for very little salary back, because you can’t do the DeMar and Pat deals while keeping Zach-ish salary on the books without going well into the tax.
They might look at stretch waiving Lonzo, or possibly trading him for less salary (that's probably for more years obviously).
It would be really dumb to stretch waive Lonzo just because of some salary pain for a single season.
dougthonus wrote:Guru wrote:I am pretty sure you yourself had a post about how they could keep DDR and Williams and get rid of ball and keep it under the luxury tax. I am unwilling to spend the time to search for it but I am pretty sure you posted that exact thing.
Lots of things there have changed:
1: Bulls apparently offered DeMar 40M per year, which is 13M more than my projection
2: Depends if you are waiving and stretching (and keeping Lonzo on your books for 3 years or just getting medical retirement, which then means he has to not play in the league this year). You had Lonzo's salary counted in your projections
3: I didn't have us doing S&Ts and using exceptions to bring in other players, which you do
Apologies for poor formatting, but here's a projection using the minimal roster size of 13 with Lonzo stretched, DeMar's updated reported offer on the books, and Pat at 16M (long term deal). We could let Pat walk of course, or his QO is 12M if no one else makes him an offer, but without using any exceptions or bringing in any players over the min besides our draft pick, we're presently sitting at 6M in the tax with the 16M Pat and 40M DeMar assumptions and Lonzo stretched.
1 Zach LaVine $43,031,940
2 Lonzo Ball $7,131,783
3 DeMar DeRozan $40,000,000
4 Nikola Vucevic $20,000,000
5 Patrick Williams $16,000,000
6 Coby White $12,000,000
7 Alex Caruso $9,890,000
8 Ayo Dosunmu $7,000,000
9 Jevon Carter $6,500,000
10 Dalen Terry $3,510,480
11 Torey Craig PO $2,845,342
12 #11 draft $5,210,760
13 Vet Min $2,200,000
14 Julian Phillips $1,891,857
Total $177,212,162
Cap $139,000,000
Tax $171,000,000
Room Under tax -$6,212,162
Room Under cap -$38,212,162
IF you want to bring in FAs on top of that, you're adding more to the pot. If you can move Zach to save money (depending on if you trade him to a team below or above the various aprons, the minimum we'd have to take back is 34.4M-39M, so there may be some wiggle room there if you could find the exact correct trade partner, but the reality is that will likely prove very difficult to do.
League Circles wrote:If I were to guess, I think the Bulls base plan (in a sense their worst case scenario plan) is basically what you have listed with these changes:
1. I doubt Craig will pick up his PO, and I think his roster replacement will be a true minimum guy at 1.1 million.
2. Same deal for #13 - a true minimum guy not a vet min.
3. They're probably not planning on offering Patrick that much anymore. Probably just 12 mil to start now.
Now, I think they'll still look at all these things but will definitely be trying to prioritize shedding some salary by sending out some combination of Vuc, Zach, Terry, Carter in trade and having less money coming back in return.
