Joe Smith appreciation thread

[kyrv]

There comes a point where results are more important than process. Several games this year Smith and/or Wallace have been bad enough that Tyrus or Noah would outperform them whether they do it in exactly the way the coaching staff envisioned or not.

It's going on 2 years with Tyrus, the Bulls run the same few plays over and over. If were not going to live with some of his mistakes its time to look into a trade, because his value is plummeting and he is always going to be a high risk player.

How about we trade Tyrus and Noah to get back Malik Allen and Othella Harrington? Sure they suck and we will lose every game, but at least they know the plays and where they are supposed to be on the floor.

To be honest I believe Boylan would be quite happy with that.

[coldfish]

Please read my "Book" post again.

I talked about noc.

He gets over agressive a lot as well, HOWEVER you will see that he is MUCH better at understanding the boundries of his role.

For instance, Noc and Wallace are very similar in that they will cheat off of their guys a lot. Tyrus does this as well.

However the difference is that Wallace and Noc "generally" are not far enough out of position to still put a play on their man and contest the shot.

I could not possibly disagree with this more. Saying that Nocioni is less out of position than Tyrus is like saying that the Bulls where blue uniforms. Its just not true.

The worst part that I have seen is when Tyrus just sticks his man and plays YMCA man to man. This kills a help defense because now you can not play off of Tyrus as one of the guards.

Don't tell me that good teams with quick, penatrating guards don't see this and just spread out Tyrus's man, for an easy layup.

I will set up the play.

Tyrus gets spread out. Kirks man catchs the ball at the top of the key and heads to the basket on Tyrus side.

However Tyrus has been spread out. So now Wallace is coming from the weak side leaving his defender to try and make a play, and the finish is a layup with people saying that Wallace just gave him a lane, when it was tyrus who set the whole thing up.

Never seen that happen to Tyrus. I did, however, watch Wallace do that exact same thing yesterday against Orlando during a critical possession in overtime. The TV coverage even replayed it to bash Wallace's stupidity.

....

In general, I understand your opinion. I just disagree with it because what I see on the court (and I watch this level of detail) is almost 180 degrees from what you describe with Tyrus.

Does he screw up and get out of position? Hell yeah. Buts its certainly less than Nocioni and other people make mistakes too.

Back last year when it was PJ, Tyrus was usually in better position than him just because PJ could not move quick enough to get into position.

[coldfish]

Trust me, I know he is making the mistakes. You just have to watch him out there, and look and understand which set the team is in...if you understand the sets on O, and what they are running on D, you will pick up every mistake by every player very easy.

I just have to comment on this. The Bulls offense and defense is pretty straightforward and after watching for years, I think I have a pretty good understanding of it.

That being said, I completely disagree with your conclusions.

Fortunately for me, there are a number of stats that support my view of the situation. Obviously no statistic is conclusive but I got:
- PER
- PER differential
- +/-
- W/L record when tyrus plays a lot

There is basically no player-team metric that makes Tyrus look like he is destroying the team when he is playing, which supports my conclusion that he is contributing when on the floor and within the bounds of the scheme.

[DASMACKDOWN]

I never had an issue with Joe Smith signing. I mean where is a problem if any with him?

The real root of my problem with Joe Smith....isnt Joe Smith but more Joe Smith with Ben Wallace.

Ive been saying since day 1, that no matter how good Joe Smith plays, it should have absolutely no impact on Tyrus or Noah.

Unfortantely this season, it has. Thats only because the coaching stafff made it be that way.

Without a doubt, I dont think its even worth arguing that Wallace has been the worst overall front court player on the team. Yet he gets 32.2mins per game. Thats all for just 4.2ppg and 8.6rebs.

Now call me crazy, but I believe Tyrus and Noah can put up substancially bigger numbers in less time. Also adding Gray to the mix, he would score probably 4 times that amount in that time period.

So there we have this issue that you see.

I dont think people are really against Smith. But they are against what he represents. Which is really a flawed coaching approach.

[Neusch23]

-= original quote snipped =-



I just have to comment on this. The Bulls offense and defense is pretty straightforward and after watching for years, I think I have a pretty good understanding of it.

That being said, I completely disagree with your conclusions.

Fortunately for me, there are a number of stats that support my view of the situation. Obviously no statistic is conclusive but I got:
- PER
- PER differential
- +/-
- W/L record when tyrus plays a lot

There is basically no player-team metric that makes Tyrus look like he is destroying the team when he is playing, which supports my conclusion that he is contributing when on the floor and within the bounds of the scheme.

Again, you can use these numbers all you want, but the reason we were more successful last year, IMO was because the people around him were playing better.

I don't believe that we played our best ball when Noc went down. People wanted him back bad because of his shooting. We kept a good pace, but we didn't get dramaticly better like people are stating. At least as I recall.

I wish I had the game on DVR so I could go all Stacy King on you with it.

I see Wallace and Noc get caught too. In none of my posts have I stated that they never do it.

I statement is that they are better at positioning them self in a way to get back.

But don't get me wrong, our system can not afford to have several people playing this way at once.

There has to be give.

Right now we don't have much give with Tyrus. For good reason, IMO. This season we are not playing good enough to hide the messes he causes.

As I see it he gets his stats by cheating out of the system and it costs us. This is going to give him good per, but kill the team UNLESS everyone else is playing at a high level.

I understand a big block can get the D going. Or a big Dunk can win the crowd. I want that done with in the system as much as posible because right now I see him gambling and the other 4 are not reacting fast enough and we have lost plays.

[BigUps]

Neusch, I understand what your saying and agree with a little of it. However, I think you're grossly overstating Tyrus' flaws while at the same time completely understating Nocioni and Wallaces.

IMO, Nocioni, and to an extent Wallace, are larger problems on defense than Tyrus.

I also feel as though you're not taking into consideration how important intangibles are with Tyrus. Tyrus not only has the big play potential that can alter a game, but he is very good at getting into opposing teams heads. Aside from Nocioni, Tyrus is pretty hated by other teams. Take the Indiana game for example. He was completely inside the Pacers heads to the point that they got out of their game. Too bad the ejection sparked Indy.

[coldfish]

Again, you can use these numbers all you want, but the reason we were more successful last year, IMO was because the people around him were playing better.

But +/- is a gross measure of a players impact on the team. If the guys around a player are playing well and the reason for positive outcomes, the individual in question will have a bad +/-, by definition.

I don't believe that we played our best ball when Noc went down. People wanted him back bad because of his shooting. We kept a good pace, but we didn't get dramaticly better like people are stating. At least as I recall.

Bulls were pretty good in the second half of last year. 20-8 after the all star break (59 win pace). 29-25 before the all star break.

I wish I had the game on DVR so I could go all Stacy King on you with it.

That would be fun. I think we would break the remote.

As I see it he gets his stats by cheating out of the system and it costs us. This is going to give him good per, but kill the team UNLESS everyone else is playing at a high level.

Then his +/- would be horrible. With him on the bench, the team would play much better, but they don't. Tyrus had a good +/- last year and is near tops on the team this year.

For more reference, Nocioni has historically had a horrible +/- and its often used against him, which again, backs up my assertions. Same thing with guys like Eddy Curry. This year, AN started off pretty positive, but his number has plummetted with his play.

Tyrus Thomas, team points per 100 posessions
2007-08
Offense 98.9 On court 100.1 off court -1.2 total (slightly bad effect)
Defense 100.6 On court 107.2 off court -6.6 total (big positive effect)

2006-07
Offense 105.9 On Court 106.3 Off court -0.4 total (slightly bad impact)
Defense 97.6 On Court 101.6 Off court -4.0 total (moderate positive impact)

So far, in both of his years, Tyrus has hurt the offense slightly and helped the defense a lot. Again, if everyone around him was playing great, his off court numbers would be better than his on court numbers.

Note: +/- is not an end all be all stat. That being said, your assertion seems to be that his presence on the court is a huge drag on the team. The numbers point in the exact opposite direction.

[Rerisen]

Note: +/- is not an end all be all stat. That being said, your assertion seems to be that his presence on the court is a huge drag on the team. The numbers point in the exact opposite direction.

Even if those numbers were flukes, which I don't think they are, the way this team is going I would think the coach(es) would be more than willing to tempt fate and have them prove wrong, by sticking with Tyrus at least until the team starts playing so crappy with him out there like many expect, predict, and claim is already happening when it hasn't been.