Should we trade Deng?

[Red Larrivee]

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I think he can be good but not great . I think he will be a Caron Butler type of player . But I do think fans overrrated him in the Kobe Bryant rumors .

I don't know. Most of the reports were saying that Kobe thought he was untouchable in the trade as well.

[MGB8]

When evaluating a players age and skillset, Deng is the Bulls most valuable player. Last season, I would have traded Deng for Gasol in a NY minute. This season, however, I am convinced that the Bulls are significantly father away from being a contending team than I thought last season.

That means that "getting older" is a more major negative, and that impacts a potential Deng-Gasol trade. Deng is TWENTY TWO. Pau is 5 years older - 27. I'd still likely do the trade, but only more or less straight up - no fillers.

That is because I don't believe that Deng has any higher upside than Gasol (both at best are 'step below franchise' players), but the F/C position is harder to fill, and Gasol would be great next to Tyrus and/or Noah.

But, given the Navarro issue and how the Grizzlies are built, I don't think that Gasol is available.

Other than that, I don't think that there is any equivalent (or better) talent available for Deng (or a package including him).

So you build around the 22 year old being a key (but not *the* player). Deng's shown significant growth this season.

He's dribbling better, to where he's merely average for a SF, and not awful. He looks quicker to me, and he's busted out some one-on-one moves from the high post - spins and fades and such. His range looks like it is improving, too. While he's a season away from putting all that together, I believe Deng can have a Paul Pierce like impact on most any team he is on - when he reaches his prime. Not good enough to make a team good, but good enough to make a team average.

[suckfish]

One of the main things that attracted Kobe to Chicago was Luol Deng. Kobe wasn't going to come to Chicago if Deng was involved in an outgoing package.

Didn't Luol say that he was going to try and incorporate the 3 point shot into his game again into the offseason? I don't quite no what happened to that, he is indeed better with the midrange game but the odd 3 pointer would certainly open things up a little bit.

I think people did tend to overate Deng a little bit, still he is 22 years old and much like our team people tend to forget how young we are, the only thing really separating us from promising teams like Atlanta is that we have had success early on.

22 is really young, nobody knows for sure how much he will develop and I think people are a little sick of holding on to the potential thing, but it's hard to ignore.

[dflaschberger]

1 thing to remember-lebron

even though he's had some good games against us deng plays him well and will make him work on d

[Rerisen]

I think people did tend to overate Deng a little bit, still he is 22 years old and much like our team people tend to forget how young we are, the only thing really separating us from promising teams like Atlanta is that we have had success early on.

22 is really young, nobody knows for sure how much he will develop and I think people are a little sick of holding on to the potential thing, but it's hard to ignore.

I think the "He's 22" Is starting to wear thin with Deng. It's important mostly in that he has many productive years ahead of him compared with older guys, but less so in the way of him getting vastly better because of it.

It makes more sense to site age with someone like Tyrus Thomas because of his more limited basketball experience, that its his 2nd year and he has hardly played at all in this league to see what he can do.

Deng is in his 4th year now and has 3 full seasons behind him, I think that is the far more telling number as far as his progression. He improved his first 3 years, but much of it was a function of getting (being worthy) or more minutes each year. But he is pretty capped off in that respect now, so will his numbers level off? They seem to be so far this year.

[Future Coach]

Clearly the question is, for whom? Barring a really impressive answer to that question, no.

this ofcourse is the answer.

Also, if we were to trade deng, he should certainly not be the first player of the main core traded, instead likely the last. The way I see it is Gordon will want off this team by the end of his contract, so I see him being traded in either a sign & trade this off season or possibly at the deadline. Hinrich I don't envision as ever becoming a pure point guard effective enough in the NBA to be successful at a championship level, and the way I see it is if a player can't compete a championship level, especially a starting point guard, then what's the point of hanging on to that player and investing in him? And while his stock his high because he does a fairly decent job defensively against bigger guards, he doesn't have the quickness to stay with the elite point guards of the NBA (except kidd because he isn't all that quick anymore). And he certainly can't be successful as a shooting guard on the offensive end. So again what is the point in investing in that player long term.

So for your question as to should we trade deng, well if we get a star in return then we certainly have to look at the deal, but if not Deng can actually be a good piece to a championship team. I can't say the same for hinrich or really the same for gordon unless the team around him is great.

But this is all coming from the stance that the team is out to win championships, not just be a competent commodity to make money off of.

[jeremy1215]

You shouldn't trade a player just because they will never be a superstar.

[tclg]

He has been finishing at the rim in a larger variety of ways. He has used his left hand more. He seems to have a post up game. I think he can refine that and add a 3 pt shot with some work

[raferfenix]

How about a Michael Redd based package? Bucks desperately need a versatile defender just like Deng.

[VinTheBarber]

id love a marion package from the suns for deng and wallace

[Jordan45822]

No, unless for a superstar small foward or shooting guard.

[Moon]

Deng is the number 1 asset of the the Bulls. If I was the GM I would proceed with trades as such. I would not even start to consider a trade that did not include the number 1 asset of the other team.

[BULLS4LIFE2]

Ill raise my hand and say i was one of the idiots who said Deng shouldnt be included in any package for Kobe

How do you feel about something like this?

Suns trade Raja Bell + Banks(4 yrs left) + expiring contracts of Marks and Piatowski

Suns receive Thabo + Antonio Daniels + Griffin + expiring contract of Khryapa



Wizards trade Daniels & Butler

Wizards receive Hinrich + Deng + expiring contracts of Marks and Piatowski

Wizards build on a team of Hinrich, Arenas, Deng, Jamison and Haywood



Bulls trade Hinrich + Deng + Sefolosha + griffin + Khryapa

Bulls receive Caron Butler + Raja Bell + Marcus Banks


Wallace
Smith
Butler
Bell
Duhon

Gray/Noah
Tyrus
Nocioni/Nichols
Gordon/
Banks/Curry

Butler gives the Bulls a more consistent scorer in the starting lineup, one that score in many different ways. Bell as your starting sg is better defensively than Hinrich and a better scorer as well

Noah backs up both C and PF positions while Gray is strictly a backup C and Tyrus the 1st option at backup PF, against some teams Noah would be the first option off the bench

Mins distribution

Gordon backs up both guard positions Bell plays around 30 a night leaving 18mins for BG at the 2 spot and Duhon plays 20 a night leaving 28 mins between BG and Banks which is split as 18 for BG and the other 10 for Banks

IMO Butler is being overplayed at the moment in Washington and his numbers will be affected by the end of the season if they keep playing him 40+ a night, on this team 35 mins would be enough allowing 13 for Noc, and when lineups dictate it Noc would get approx 10 mins at PF, right now 20-25 mins for Noc is about right

Joe Smith needs to play no more than the first 5 mins of each qtr thats when he's most effective, thats 20 mins a night leaving 28 at the 4 spot between Tyrus and Noah split 20 Tyrus and 8 Noah

Wallace needs his mins cut down to about 20 a night as well, similar to Smith the first 5 mins of each qtr, leaving 28 between Gray and Noah which should be split 14 each

Is it fair for all teams involved?

The Bulls rid themselves of the usless Griffin and Khryapa, the extremely inconsistent Hinrich and the disappointing Thabo, they allow themselves size at every position, as Duhon, Bell and Butler could matchup to pretty much all other starting backcourts size wise

Curry and Nichols have time to develop as the scoring punch off the bench in limited mins

[DuckIII]

Duck, when I started this thread I was actually thinking about something that you wrote in another thread where you said that you still expect Deng to take another step in his game? So specifically I would like your input in what you have seen that makes you think Deng will indeed take that next step.

I think his offensive game is far more diverse than it was last year on the interior. Its just that he's still developing it. And I think he will continue to develop that aspect of his game over the next 2-3 years to the point that he becomes a legit post-threat like a Paul Pierce or a Michael Redd.

By the end of this season, I expect Deng's numbers to be up across the board except maybe with FG%, but I expect that to get over 50% as well. With the exception of a few bad games very early in the season, he's playing at about the 20/7 level. I think thats pretty much where he will be when the season wraps up. And that will evidence a 22 year old player that is still trending upwards.

Also, would a Deng for Gasol deal as the centerpieces be a deal that you would do?

No. I would oppose that trade. Deng is better than Gasol already and he's 5 years younger. Last season I strongly supported that deal. But not anymore.

If not, what type of players would you be willing to deal Deng. It doesn't even have to be players that are specifically available but what types of players. Is anything less than a superstar not worth trading Deng, etc.?

I really don't know. I guess given his age and how the Bulls are constructed, a player like Al Jefferson would be interesting. But you see the problem: the types of guys I'd be interested in sacrificing Deng to acquire likely aren't available in trade for Luol Deng.

Let me add: I don't really give much thought to what the Bulls could acquire for Deng. Generally speaking, I'm not interested in trading him.

[AirP.]

You don't move Deng, he's not a #1 man... there's no doubt about that but he may be the best #2 man in the league. What I mean about that is he gets his points without having to have the ball. He shoots very well midrange jumpers, he finishes at the rim when he runs the lanes and gets the ball.

This team desperately needs a player who can create scoring oppertunties for our guys. This team stagnates on offense because all we have is Gordon and Nocioni who can go one on one with success but we have a good number of players who could finish well with a playmaking PG/SG.

Duhon is a playmaker and could start on a few of the teams in the league, but really, he's a great backup but can get more out of our athletic players then Hinrich ever could, but even with that, a better PG would do wonders for this team.

[ATRAIN53]

I'd keep Deng and Gordon and go hard after Baron Davis or Arenas in FA next summer.

Hinrich, Duhon or Thabo are not the solution at G to win an NBA Championship.

Deng can be a solution at F to win - but he must have a G that can create their own shot, and get to the FT line to compliment him.

[Cliff Levingston]

If this whole thread is based on Deng's inability to perform in the clutch, Cliff Levingston has to call BS. The Bulls don't look for Deng in the clutch; they basically hand it off to Gordon and run the horrid Ben-squared pick and roll that never works. In which case, Deng's responsibility is to be available for a jump shot or get an offensive rebound.

In other words, it's hard to criticize his end-game ability when he hasn't been given a real chance to be "the closer."

With that, Cliff Levingston does think we should look to use him more in that capacity, perhaps switching off with Ben Gordon. When the game is on the line (or within the last 3 minutes of the quarter), we should do one of two things (provided the lineup is the preferred Hinrich-Gordon-Deng-Nocioni-Wallace lineup):

1. Iso Gordon at the top of the key and do NOT bring a screen to him. Spread the floor with shooters while Wallace looks for the offensive board. Let Ben create and either score or find the open shooter.
2. Post Deng on the left block and spread the floor with the shooters while Wallace crashes the boards from the opposite side of the court. Let Deng create and either score or find the open shooter.

This is what other teams do; put the ball into their best players' hands and let them decide the outcome of the game. Maybe Gordon and Deng aren't superstars but they're the best we've got.

[bullzman23]

If this whole thread is based on Deng's inability to perform in the clutch, Cliff Levingston has to call BS. The Bulls don't look for Deng in the clutch; they basically hand it off to Gordon and run the horrid Ben-squared pick and roll that never works. In which case, Deng's responsibility is to be available for a jump shot or get an offensive rebound.

In other words, it's hard to criticize his end-game ability when he hasn't been given a real chance to be "the closer."

With that, Cliff Levingston does think we should look to use him more in that capacity, perhaps switching off with Ben Gordon. When the game is on the line (or within the last 3 minutes of the quarter), we should do one of two things (provided the lineup is the preferred Hinrich-Gordon-Deng-Nocioni-Wallace lineup):

1. Iso Gordon at the top of the key and do NOT bring a screen to him. Spread the floor with shooters while Wallace looks for the offensive board. Let Ben create and either score or find the open shooter.
2. Post Deng on the left block and spread the floor with the shooters while Wallace crashes the boards from the opposite side of the court. Let Deng create and either score or find the open shooter.

This is what other teams do; put the ball into their best players' hands and let them decide the outcome of the game. Maybe Gordon and Deng aren't superstars but they're the best we've got.

Cliff, while I agree with what you're saying, Deng himself needs to assert himself. I rarely see him calling for the ball after the third quarter. Teammates should look to get him involved more, but if I get the feeling that someone on my team shys away from shooting in the fourth I'd be reluctant to go to him to. He needs to change his mentality. He changed it against Miami. It's time to do it now too.

[BuLLs>LiFe]

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Cliff, while I agree with what you're saying, Deng himself needs to assert himself. I rarely see him calling for the ball after the third quarter. Teammates should look to get him involved more, but if I get the feeling that someone on my team shys away from shooting in the fourth I'd be reluctant to go to him to. He needs to change his mentality. He changed it against Miami. It's time to do it now too.

I pretty much agree with all of this. Deng has certainly shown that he can take over games late (specifically against Miami which is even better considering it was in the playoffs), but for whatever reason he seems to completely disappear in the fourth quarter. Sometimes I don't even realize that he's in the game. He needs to show more initiative and try to get himself going. I'm amazed at how many times I just completely seem to not notice Deng and then you look at the boxscore and he put up 22/7 which to me shows that he has to be pretty darn effective in the previous quarters to put those kinds of numbers up. However, imagine what he COULD be putting up if he asserted himself a little more during crunch time.

[DuckIII]

I've stated it many times before: I agree with Cliff on this issue. I consider Deng's lack of impact in the 4th quarter of some games to be far more the result of the team just going away from him than it is him "shying away" from the ball.

And when he has been given the chances this season, he's been effective. In the waning days of Skiles tenure, there was a series of about 4-5 wins in close games where Deng was the Bulls main offensive threat and clutch performer in the 4th quarter of those games. I'm not going to go back through and detail again, but the data backs it up.

That was when Gordon was useless, so the team started looking to Deng on key possessions, and he delivered. I want to see more of that. I understand why they went almost exclusively to Ben in the Magic game, because Gordon was having one of "those games." But I want to see them mix it up a lot more and involve Deng, just like Cliff suggests.