Game 3: Pacers @ Cavs 10/28/23

[JujitsuFlip]

At least two of the first three teams we played have good benches (arguably all three). The biggest leap in the NBA is from third string to second string and that doesn't account for when you're playing good second units. I'm pretty hard pressed to list guys who should've gotten more minutes in a close game. I like CPJ but coming in against McConnell is kind of baptism by fire. There are scores of backup PGs who don't play a lick of defense, but McConnell definitely isn't one of them.

Anyway, our benched was outscored 60-11 tonight.

That bench scoring is nice.

At some point they will need to upgrade spots 15, 14, 13, and Rubio.

Even if healthy, so tough to start a season with 3 games in 4 nights.

We need to upgrade the backup PG and center positions and Niang needs a week at fat camp.

I haven't been able to watch the games but Niang's box hasn't looked good.

Yeah, i hate to rush Rubio back given the reasoning for his absence but getting clarity on that sooner than later would be good.

Agreed on the 5, thought TT or Jones would be passable but no such luck.

[afarmenian]

Man those rose colored glasses you all wear seem to fit comfortably. It's going to come down to results. I think the team is trending down with injuries, apathy and a clueless coach. You all seem to think everything is fine for reasons unknown.

The fact remains this roster is a mishmash of ill fitting parts. Only two bigs that should be getting minutes neither of which compliment thre other and one thats injury prone.

Small shrimpy backcourt the lead guards with all the same flaws one of which is also injury prone.

The worst bench in the NBA.

No true wing on the entire team.

Small team and unathletic in general mentally weak and liable to collapse against adversity.

The team gets by on raw talent but push comes to shove we are no where close to being a contender.

Nothing you can do to change my mind until we see different results. It boggles my mind that two supposed all star players in their primes couldn't make it out of training camp without a little boo boo.

Watch garland during the thunder game jumping around on the bench but supposedly his lil hammy was too hurt to play. What a joke.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but this year is going to be a disaster of injuries tepid play and a lame duck coach

[Iwasawitness]

Man those rose colored glasses you all wear seem to fit comfortably. It's going to come down to results. I think the team is trending down with injuries, apathy and a clueless coach. You all seem to think everything is fine for reasons unknown.

The fact remains this roster is a mishmash of ill fitting parts. Only two bigs that should be getting minutes neither of which compliment thre other and one thats injury prone.

Small shrimpy backcourt the lead guards with all the same flaws one of which is also injury prone.

The worst bench in the NBA.

No true wing on the entire team.

Small team and unathletic in general mentally weak and liable to collapse against adversity.

The team gets by on raw talent but push comes to shove we are no where close to being a contender.

Nothing you can do to change my mind until we see different results. It boggles my mind that two supposed all star players in their primes couldn't make it out of training camp without a little boo boo.

Watch garland during the thunder game jumping around on the bench but supposedly his lil hammy was too hurt to play. What a joke.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but this year is going to be a disaster of injuries tepid play and a lame duck coach

Let us know when you want to start living in the real world again. Until then your meltdowns just aren’t worth addressing.

[JujitsuFlip]

Man those rose colored glasses you all wear seem to fit comfortably. It's going to come down to results. I think the team is trending down with injuries, apathy and a clueless coach. You all seem to think everything is fine for reasons unknown.

The fact remains this roster is a mishmash of ill fitting parts. Only two bigs that should be getting minutes neither of which compliment thre other and one thats injury prone.

Small shrimpy backcourt the lead guards with all the same flaws one of which is also injury prone.

The worst bench in the NBA.

No true wing on the entire team.

Small team and unathletic in general mentally weak and liable to collapse against adversity.

The team gets by on raw talent but push comes to shove we are no where close to being a contender.

Nothing you can do to change my mind until we see different results. It boggles my mind that two supposed all star players in their primes couldn't make it out of training camp without a little boo boo.

Watch garland during the thunder game jumping around on the bench but supposedly his lil hammy was too hurt to play. What a joke.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but this year is going to be a disaster of injuries tepid play and a lame duck coach

Best case scenario would be a lame duck head coach lol but his contract runs until 2027, so the drunkard Koby and Grant Gilbert will probably be perfectly fine with him fulfilling the entirety of his agreement.

[ijspeelman]

I tried to remain spoiler free before watching, but accidentally saw the final score last night so I just read all the threads and looked at stat lines.

And maybe I just had the benefit of being able to rewatch plays, but was pretty proud of the showing by the Cavs. Don't know how we are blaming JB or even the players for this one.

Just to touch on the final dagger of allowing Hali's final 3 threes, I'll just walk through each and what went wrong.

1st three: play starts breaking down when Brown drives on Strus and Mobley steps in front where Brown throws a perfect bounce to an open Turner under the rim. This forces Wade to step in to help with Turner and then Okoro correctly zones up both Hali and Neismith. Luckily, Turner wasn't ready for the pass so he kicks it out to Hali. Wade then runs back to this man (Neismith) and Okoro maybe runs a bit too hard towards Hali as Hali easily passes him by. This makes Mobley have to step out to block the lane, Strus has to leave Brown in the corner to tag Mobley's man, and LeVert then has to zone Nembhard and Brown. Hali drives in and sees Mobley so he passes out to Nembhard. Strus goes back to Brown and Okoro trailed Hali to the paint. LeVert also may have run too fast towards Nembhard because he gets right past him so Okoro has to stay in the paint to block the lane while Mobley continues to tag Turner in the paint. Hali sees this and runs to the top of the key. Wade attempts to zone up, but Neismith smartly runs further in the corner so Wade cannot guard both and leans more towards the corner.

This leads to Hali's best look. Its possible Okoro could have left the paint to follow Hali, but it would have left Mobley with a two on one at the rim. Its hard to fault Wade as well who decided to guard the higher percentage look. Best stop would have been either of Okoro or LeVert not closing out as hard.

2nd three: Fairly simple one here. Hali guarded by Okoro gets screen by Hield guarded by LeVert. LeVert plays drop which I assume is to prevent Hield from ghosting the screen for a quick three or not allowing him an easy run to the rim. Either way, screen goes normally and Okoro cannot get over so it should be an easy switch with LeVert taking Hali, but LeVert does not get up quick enough and their is Hali's second three.

3rd three: Another fairly simple one. Hali guarded by Okoro and Okoro expects a screen to set by Nembhard on the left and Strus goes into show coverage so all Okoro has to do is not let Tyrese go right. Okoro over commits to the left and Nembhard flips the screen and Tyrese gets and open lane to his left. Strus actually makes an incredible effort to contest Ty's shot, but it goes in.

Now that that is out of the way, I'll move on to the other 47 minutes of play lol

The Mobley Strus play was great to see. Lots of Mobley DHOs, but especially to Strus. This allowed for Strus to get open for three and more importantly allowed for both to get downhill where Strus showcased some of his passing chops.

Two quick plays to highlight.

First, play starts with Mobley in the high post with Strus running over to grab the DHO, but instead rushes into the paint, but Mathurin plays it well and Mob doesn't pass. However, Strus runs back to do a repeat and this time Mob get it to Strus and Turner has to help on the drive which stifles Strus, but leaves Mathurin on Mobley. Strus brings it back up to the paint and at the same time Mob darts to the rim. Strus makes a great bounce pass leading to a Mob dunk.

Second, Mobley in high post and its meant to be a DHO, but Mathurin fronts Strus so it cannot happen. Mob sees this and runs towards the action where Strus sheds Mathurin and screens Turner so Mob can beautifully spin around Mathurin for a dunk.

Quick Mathurin shoutout, the Cavs were absolutely torching him all game. Makes sense they took him out for the rest of the game for Neismith.

Got to "see" our first taste of Bates. He was not really used in his minutes so I don't really have anything. I think he has maybe two touches? With one, he shot a semi-transition three and missed.

A few more Mobley points. Cavaliers did a great job in this game getting Mobley going in transition. Without Garland and Mitchell, Mob got to generate a lot more offense for himself. The jumpers are still not really going down (despite a turnaround and a garbage time three), but he has a 30 piece on positive TS%. The question for Mobley is if this were a high-end performance for him as the "star" or if there is more up from here.

Niang is worrying me on D and it doesn't help he hasn't been hitting his shots.

Also, I saw ppl calling out JB for playing some of these guys too much, but they have rest days today and tomorrow so I think it was fine personally.

Last thing, Tristan came in and did not look washed in his few minutes. Made some great defensive reads to stop some easy buckets. However, in a game like this if Isaiah Mob isn't playing, why is here? The answer will be because he's Evan's bro, but after looking pretty good in Summer League, you'd think he'd get some runout. Looks like Isaiah will remain in the dog pound if Tristan is getting minutes over him.

Lots of good in this game even in the loss. On to the next (where a hopefully healthy Cavs face the Knicks in a test back-to-back).

[toooskies]

Man those rose colored glasses you all wear seem to fit comfortably. It's going to come down to results. I think the team is trending down with injuries, apathy and a clueless coach. You all seem to think everything is fine for reasons unknown.

The fact remains this roster is a mishmash of ill fitting parts. Only two bigs that should be getting minutes neither of which compliment thre other and one thats injury prone.

Small shrimpy backcourt the lead guards with all the same flaws one of which is also injury prone.

The worst bench in the NBA.

No true wing on the entire team.

Small team and unathletic in general mentally weak and liable to collapse against adversity.

The team gets by on raw talent but push comes to shove we are no where close to being a contender.

Nothing you can do to change my mind until we see different results. It boggles my mind that two supposed all star players in their primes couldn't make it out of training camp without a little boo boo.

Watch garland during the thunder game jumping around on the bench but supposedly his lil hammy was too hurt to play. What a joke.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but this year is going to be a disaster of injuries tepid play and a lame duck coach

Best case scenario would be a lame duck head coach lol but his contract runs until 2027, so the drunkard Koby and Grant Gilbert will probably be perfectly fine with him fulfilling the entirety of his agreement.

If you don't like the ownership, the POBO, the coach, the best player, or any of the guys that much, why bother following the team?

[JujitsuFlip]

Man those rose colored glasses you all wear seem to fit comfortably. It's going to come down to results. I think the team is trending down with injuries, apathy and a clueless coach. You all seem to think everything is fine for reasons unknown.

The fact remains this roster is a mishmash of ill fitting parts. Only two bigs that should be getting minutes neither of which compliment thre other and one thats injury prone.

Small shrimpy backcourt the lead guards with all the same flaws one of which is also injury prone.

The worst bench in the NBA.

No true wing on the entire team.

Small team and unathletic in general mentally weak and liable to collapse against adversity.

The team gets by on raw talent but push comes to shove we are no where close to being a contender.

Nothing you can do to change my mind until we see different results. It boggles my mind that two supposed all star players in their primes couldn't make it out of training camp without a little boo boo.

Watch garland during the thunder game jumping around on the bench but supposedly his lil hammy was too hurt to play. What a joke.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but this year is going to be a disaster of injuries tepid play and a lame duck coach

Best case scenario would be a lame duck head coach lol but his contract runs until 2027, so the drunkard Koby and Grant Gilbert will probably be perfectly fine with him fulfilling the entirety of his agreement.

If you don't like the ownership, the POBO, the coach, the best player, or any of the guys that much, why bother following the team?

I have no problem with Dan writing checks, not my money; just don't think it's wise to have a 25 year old playing interim owner of a NBA team.

Koby just always gets fleeced in trades with Ainge and made a goofball decision in his personal life.

JB is just clearly not a fit for this team, i have nothing against the guy personally. I dislike that he probably has the role he does due to nepotism but you'll find that all over in the business world.

I don't dislike Mitchell idk why you and the new guy continue to say that. I just think they overpaid for him and he will leave first chance he can. It is okay to hold these opinions, we don't need this to be an echo chamber.

Also, what are you talking about? I've loved the Strus, Niang, and Jerome acquisitions, you're the one who has been openly opposed to them. Garland and Mobley are 2 of my favorite players i always say those 2 are the real core of this team, so again, wut?

[toooskies]

Best case scenario would be a lame duck head coach lol but his contract runs until 2027, so the drunkard Koby and Grant Gilbert will probably be perfectly fine with him fulfilling the entirety of his agreement.

If you don't like the ownership, the POBO, the coach, the best player, or any of the guys that much, why bother following the team?

I have no problem with Dan writing checks, not my money; just don't think it's wise to have a 25 year old playing interim owner of a NBA team.

Koby just always gets fleeced in trades with Ainge and made a goofball decision in his personal life.

JB is just clearly not a fit for this team, i have nothing against the guy personally. I dislike that he probably has the role he does due to nepotism but you'll find that all over in the business world.

I don't dislike Mitchell idk why you and the new guy continue to say that. I just think they overpaid for him and he will leave first chance he can. It is okay to hold these opinions, we don't need this to be an echo chamber.

Also, what are you talking about? I've loved the Strus, Niang, and Jerome acquisitions, you're the one who has been openly opposed to them. Garland and Mobley are 2 of my favorite players i always say those 2 are the real core of this team, so again, wut?

Just saying the overwhelming negativity on this board has been a little overboard. There's no need to call Altman a drunkard nearly every time you mention him, for instance. Everyone knows what he did that one time (or possibly twice).

Not just you BTW, but it's been worse here than on Reddit lately.

[ijspeelman]

If you don't like the ownership, the POBO, the coach, the best player, or any of the guys that much, why bother following the team?

I have no problem with Dan writing checks, not my money; just don't think it's wise to have a 25 year old playing interim owner of a NBA team.

Koby just always gets fleeced in trades with Ainge and made a goofball decision in his personal life.

JB is just clearly not a fit for this team, i have nothing against the guy personally. I dislike that he probably has the role he does due to nepotism but you'll find that all over in the business world.

I don't dislike Mitchell idk why you and the new guy continue to say that. I just think they overpaid for him and he will leave first chance he can. It is okay to hold these opinions, we don't need this to be an echo chamber.

Also, what are you talking about? I've loved the Strus, Niang, and Jerome acquisitions, you're the one who has been openly opposed to them. Garland and Mobley are 2 of my favorite players i always say those 2 are the real core of this team, so again, wut?

Just saying the overwhelming negativity on this board has been a little overboard. There's no need to call Altman a drunkard nearly every time you mention him, for instance. Everyone knows what he did that one time (or possibly twice).

Not just you BTW, but it's been worse here than on Reddit lately.

Not to jump on reddit, but its why I rarely if ever go to their game threads anymore. Win or loss, and in any context, its a negative echo chamber of:
- JB's fault
- Mitchell is leaving
- Mobley isn't developing
- Team is soft
- We only play iso-ball

Not saying all of this is untrue, but the circular conversation around the generalities of these points have lost me. A lot of the arguments lack nuance and seem like finger pointing after any loss or disappointing result.

JB is going to take flak for every loss for the rest of the season and I assume will only get credit if we make the Finals. Even then, fans may think we won in spite of him.

JB has positives and negatives. The questions are if he will improve on both of these. (sorry for the JB rant lol)

[JujitsuFlip]

If you don't like the ownership, the POBO, the coach, the best player, or any of the guys that much, why bother following the team?

I have no problem with Dan writing checks, not my money; just don't think it's wise to have a 25 year old playing interim owner of a NBA team.

Koby just always gets fleeced in trades with Ainge and made a goofball decision in his personal life.

JB is just clearly not a fit for this team, i have nothing against the guy personally. I dislike that he probably has the role he does due to nepotism but you'll find that all over in the business world.

I don't dislike Mitchell idk why you and the new guy continue to say that. I just think they overpaid for him and he will leave first chance he can. It is okay to hold these opinions, we don't need this to be an echo chamber.

Also, what are you talking about? I've loved the Strus, Niang, and Jerome acquisitions, you're the one who has been openly opposed to them. Garland and Mobley are 2 of my favorite players i always say those 2 are the real core of this team, so again, wut?

Just saying the overwhelming negativity on this board has been a little overboard. There's no need to call Altman a drunkard nearly every time you mention him, for instance. Everyone knows what he did that one time (or possibly twice).

Not just you BTW, but it's been worse here than on Reddit lately.

I think from February 2020 until now the majority of Cavs fans have seen enough JB Bickerstaff to decide one way or another on if he is the guy for the job or not.

The guy is the 5th longest tenured coach in franchise history for crying out loud. If he is allowed to fulfill his entire contract, he will only be shy of the original head coach of this franchise in games coached.

With that in mind, I'm honestly surprised more people aren't critical of JB.

[toooskies]

I have no problem with Dan writing checks, not my money; just don't think it's wise to have a 25 year old playing interim owner of a NBA team.

Koby just always gets fleeced in trades with Ainge and made a goofball decision in his personal life.

JB is just clearly not a fit for this team, i have nothing against the guy personally. I dislike that he probably has the role he does due to nepotism but you'll find that all over in the business world.

I don't dislike Mitchell idk why you and the new guy continue to say that. I just think they overpaid for him and he will leave first chance he can. It is okay to hold these opinions, we don't need this to be an echo chamber.

Also, what are you talking about? I've loved the Strus, Niang, and Jerome acquisitions, you're the one who has been openly opposed to them. Garland and Mobley are 2 of my favorite players i always say those 2 are the real core of this team, so again, wut?

Just saying the overwhelming negativity on this board has been a little overboard. There's no need to call Altman a drunkard nearly every time you mention him, for instance. Everyone knows what he did that one time (or possibly twice).

Not just you BTW, but it's been worse here than on Reddit lately.

I think from February 2020 until now the majority of Cavs fans have seen enough JB Bickerstaff to decide one way or another on if he is the guy for the job or not.

The guy is the 5th longest tenured coach in franchise history for crying out loud. If he is allowed to fulfill his entire contract, he will only be shy of the original head coach of this franchise in games coached.

With that in mind, I'm honestly surprised more people aren't critical of JB.

I'd do some things differently than JBB but if you told me in February 2020 that we'd make the play-in in 2022 and get the 4 seed in 2023, I'd assume that he'd been doing a really good job.

[JujitsuFlip]

Just saying the overwhelming negativity on this board has been a little overboard. There's no need to call Altman a drunkard nearly every time you mention him, for instance. Everyone knows what he did that one time (or possibly twice).

Not just you BTW, but it's been worse here than on Reddit lately.

I think from February 2020 until now the majority of Cavs fans have seen enough JB Bickerstaff to decide one way or another on if he is the guy for the job or not.

The guy is the 5th longest tenured coach in franchise history for crying out loud. If he is allowed to fulfill his entire contract, he will only be shy of the original head coach of this franchise in games coached.

With that in mind, I'm honestly surprised more people aren't critical of JB.

I'd do some things differently than JBB but if you told me in February 2020 that we'd make the play-in in 2022 and get the 4 seed in 2023, I'd assume that he'd been doing a really good job.

On the face of it, sure. It's the results those led to that give me pause, with his coaching ability.

[Iwasawitness]

I have no problem with Dan writing checks, not my money; just don't think it's wise to have a 25 year old playing interim owner of a NBA team.

Koby just always gets fleeced in trades with Ainge and made a goofball decision in his personal life.

JB is just clearly not a fit for this team, i have nothing against the guy personally. I dislike that he probably has the role he does due to nepotism but you'll find that all over in the business world.

I don't dislike Mitchell idk why you and the new guy continue to say that. I just think they overpaid for him and he will leave first chance he can. It is okay to hold these opinions, we don't need this to be an echo chamber.

Also, what are you talking about? I've loved the Strus, Niang, and Jerome acquisitions, you're the one who has been openly opposed to them. Garland and Mobley are 2 of my favorite players i always say those 2 are the real core of this team, so again, wut?

Just saying the overwhelming negativity on this board has been a little overboard. There's no need to call Altman a drunkard nearly every time you mention him, for instance. Everyone knows what he did that one time (or possibly twice).

Not just you BTW, but it's been worse here than on Reddit lately.

I think from February 2020 until now the majority of Cavs fans have seen enough JB Bickerstaff to decide one way or another on if he is the guy for the job or not.

The guy is the 5th longest tenured coach in franchise history for crying out loud. If he is allowed to fulfill his entire contract, he will only be shy of the original head coach of this franchise in games coached.

With that in mind, I'm honestly surprised more people aren't critical of JB.

Bickerstaff has some very good qualities that give him potential and reasons to hope he gets better.

He's not afraid to try odd rotations that most teams wouldn't, and while in most cases it hasn't always worked, there are some times where he's had strokes of genius. Having Lauri be the starting SF and go with a lineup consisting of three bigs was his idea, and it ended up working wonders for them. Most teams would have never even considered going that route given the landscape of the NBA today, but he saw value in the unique advantages that going that route would bring to the team. And when Evan Mobley was drafted by Cleveland, Bickerstaff was all for making him an immediate starter and putting him at PF, while having Kevin Love be their sixth man. As badly as he ended up screwing up in the end with Kevin, Bickerstaff saw the value in having him come off the bench in order to maximize his value and it worked wonders.

He's very good with players and knows how to humble them quickly. He knows that players can get full of themselves and he makes it clear that isn't going to fly on his team. Sometimes that works against him, but it's a good thing to have.

But his greatest quality without question is how good his teams are defensively. Everything changed for Cleveland when Jarrett Allen got traded there and he integrated a system built around him as the anchor. But Evan Mobley took them to another level. But under Bickerstaff, Allen took a big step as a defender compared to his time in Brooklyn. Dean Wade made remarkable strides as a defender since first coming to the team. But the one that gets me the most is how much better Mitchell has been as a defender since coming to Cleveland. Mark it down as him just putting in extra effort, but not doing so just isn't something Bickerstaff would accept. A coach committed to defense is an excellent quality, especially when he's actually good at it.

Bickerstaff has some really poor qualities as a coach, and you can argue they're a major reason for Cleveland's first round exit against NY (and I would agree with that take). Strangely enough, had Cleveland not made that trade for Mitchell, Bickerstaff's job probably wouldn't be at stake if they didn't at the very least make the second round this season. Cleveland very clearly has big aspirations for their roster, so they aren't willing to wait. But had it not been for the trade, they more than likely would be willing to wait, and I would even support that.

With that said, if we don't see major improvements to his offensive schemes and rotations, I agree that it's time to move on from him.

[JonFromVA]

Just saying the overwhelming negativity on this board has been a little overboard. There's no need to call Altman a drunkard nearly every time you mention him, for instance. Everyone knows what he did that one time (or possibly twice).

Not just you BTW, but it's been worse here than on Reddit lately.

I think from February 2020 until now the majority of Cavs fans have seen enough JB Bickerstaff to decide one way or another on if he is the guy for the job or not.

The guy is the 5th longest tenured coach in franchise history for crying out loud. If he is allowed to fulfill his entire contract, he will only be shy of the original head coach of this franchise in games coached.

With that in mind, I'm honestly surprised more people aren't critical of JB.

Bickerstaff has some very good qualities that give him potential and reasons to hope he gets better.

He's not afraid to try odd rotations that most teams wouldn't, and while in most cases it hasn't always worked, there are some times where he's had strokes of genius. Having Lauri be the starting SF and go with a lineup consisting of three bigs was his idea, and it ended up working wonders for them. Most teams would have never even considered going that route given the landscape of the NBA today, but he saw value in the unique advantages that going that route would bring to the team. And when Evan Mobley was drafted by Cleveland, Bickerstaff was all for making him an immediate starter and putting him at PF, while having Kevin Love be their sixth man. As badly as he ended up screwing up in the end with Kevin, Bickerstaff saw the value in having him come off the bench in order to maximize his value and it worked wonders.

He's very good with players and knows how to humble them quickly. He knows that players can get full of themselves and he makes it clear that isn't going to fly on his team. Sometimes that works against him, but it's a good thing to have.

But his greatest quality without question is how good his teams are defensively. Everything changed for Cleveland when Jarrett Allen got traded there and he integrated a system built around him as the anchor. But Evan Mobley took them to another level. But under Bickerstaff, Allen took a big step as a defender compared to his time in Brooklyn. Dean Wade made remarkable strides as a defender since first coming to the team. But the one that gets me the most is how much better Mitchell has been as a defender since coming to Cleveland. Mark it down as him just putting in extra effort, but not doing so just isn't something Bickerstaff would accept. A coach committed to defense is an excellent quality, especially when he's actually good at it.

Bickerstaff has some really poor qualities as a coach, and you can argue they're a major reason for Cleveland's first round exit against NY (and I would agree with that take). Strangely enough, had Cleveland not made that trade for Mitchell, Bickerstaff's job probably wouldn't be at stake if they didn't at the very least make the second round this season. Cleveland very clearly has big aspirations for their roster, so they aren't willing to wait. But had it not been for the trade, they more than likely would be willing to wait, and I would even support that.

With that said, if we don't see major improvements to his offensive schemes and rotations, I agree that it's time to move on from him.

I'd just like to have a coach that gets the most of his players, not just manage egos and extol them to play hard when most other teams are cruising.

Why didn't he carve out a role that made more sense for Isaac before his 4th season in the league? And while the 3-big lineup was cool, imagine JBB had unlocked Lauri in Cleveland before the Mitchell trade? All he had to do was ask more out of his small forwards than standing in a corner waiting for a pass to a shoot a 3.

JBB can get better, but will the final version be worth the wait?

But hey, +1 for trying to see both sides.

[Iwasawitness]

I think from February 2020 until now the majority of Cavs fans have seen enough JB Bickerstaff to decide one way or another on if he is the guy for the job or not.

The guy is the 5th longest tenured coach in franchise history for crying out loud. If he is allowed to fulfill his entire contract, he will only be shy of the original head coach of this franchise in games coached.

With that in mind, I'm honestly surprised more people aren't critical of JB.

Bickerstaff has some very good qualities that give him potential and reasons to hope he gets better.

He's not afraid to try odd rotations that most teams wouldn't, and while in most cases it hasn't always worked, there are some times where he's had strokes of genius. Having Lauri be the starting SF and go with a lineup consisting of three bigs was his idea, and it ended up working wonders for them. Most teams would have never even considered going that route given the landscape of the NBA today, but he saw value in the unique advantages that going that route would bring to the team. And when Evan Mobley was drafted by Cleveland, Bickerstaff was all for making him an immediate starter and putting him at PF, while having Kevin Love be their sixth man. As badly as he ended up screwing up in the end with Kevin, Bickerstaff saw the value in having him come off the bench in order to maximize his value and it worked wonders.

He's very good with players and knows how to humble them quickly. He knows that players can get full of themselves and he makes it clear that isn't going to fly on his team. Sometimes that works against him, but it's a good thing to have.

But his greatest quality without question is how good his teams are defensively. Everything changed for Cleveland when Jarrett Allen got traded there and he integrated a system built around him as the anchor. But Evan Mobley took them to another level. But under Bickerstaff, Allen took a big step as a defender compared to his time in Brooklyn. Dean Wade made remarkable strides as a defender since first coming to the team. But the one that gets me the most is how much better Mitchell has been as a defender since coming to Cleveland. Mark it down as him just putting in extra effort, but not doing so just isn't something Bickerstaff would accept. A coach committed to defense is an excellent quality, especially when he's actually good at it.

Bickerstaff has some really poor qualities as a coach, and you can argue they're a major reason for Cleveland's first round exit against NY (and I would agree with that take). Strangely enough, had Cleveland not made that trade for Mitchell, Bickerstaff's job probably wouldn't be at stake if they didn't at the very least make the second round this season. Cleveland very clearly has big aspirations for their roster, so they aren't willing to wait. But had it not been for the trade, they more than likely would be willing to wait, and I would even support that.

With that said, if we don't see major improvements to his offensive schemes and rotations, I agree that it's time to move on from him.

I'd just like to have a coach that gets the most of his players, not just manage egos and extol them to play hard when most other teams are cruising.

Why didn't he carve out a role that made more sense for Isaac before his 4th season in the league? And while the 3-big lineup was cool, imagine JBB had unlocked Lauri in Cleveland before the Mitchell trade? All he had to do was ask more out of his small forwards than standing in a corner waiting for a pass to a shoot a 3.

JBB can get better, but will the final version be worth the wait?

But hey, +1 for trying to see both sides.

So I've actually heard that argument before regarding how JB used Lauri and that he limited what Lauri could have done for the team. There's two sides to the argument here.

On one hand, I fully agree. I've stated before that I thought Lauri would have been the perfect second option alongside Garland. But on the other hand, let me ask you guys a question.

If Lauri was truly unlocked and became what he is now... aren't we just going through the same situation with Mobley then that we are now? Where we are now limiting Mobley's offensive potential and preventing him from being able to properly develop if we are prioritizing Lauri instead? I don't know, because what happened has happened and we're never going to know what going this route would have produced. But here's what I will say: that big lineup was a major reason for Cleveland surprising that season and doubling their record from the previous year. I don't think people realize how big of a deal that is. Cleveland's record double and part of the reason for that is because of changes to the lineup that JB made. He played a factor in that. That deserves a lot of credit, and it's credit he doesn't get enough of. And how he's used Mitchell since he's arrived to Cleveland deserves credit as well.

I don't know, I guess I kind of view this situation the same way I view what was going on with Erik Spolstra when he was first starting out with LeBron. I don't know if people remember this or not, but Erik actually got a lot of criticism throughout his first four years with Miami. Once LeBron left, Erik was able to try out new things and figure out how to truly be a better coach. I'm not saying that JB is on the level of Spo or that he ever will be... but the thing is, Spo had positive qualities that he could work off of. Some people don't have that and just aren't meant to be good coaches. Some are utterly hopeless and never change. Some are stuck to one mindset and wait way too long to change (looking at you pringles, seriously why did you wait until Houston to suddenly care about defense). JB has a lot of faults, but as someone who loves the defensive side of basketball and considers that more important, I love the idea of having a coach that specializes in it. I just wish he... knew what he was doing in other aspects.

And actually, you know what? I'm going to take this a step even further. Remember Mike Brown? This guy was actually even WORSE than Bickerstaff was when it came to coaching an offense during his first stint with Cleveland. He pretty much just ran everything through LeBron, he had no idea what he was doing. Doc Rivers of all people outcoached him decisively.

But now look at Mike Brown. He just won COY last season leading one of the most proficient offenses in the league. He's considered one of the most brilliant minds in that regard. Sometimes people just need time to figure things out.

[JujitsuFlip]

Bickerstaff has some very good qualities that give him potential and reasons to hope he gets better.

He's not afraid to try odd rotations that most teams wouldn't, and while in most cases it hasn't always worked, there are some times where he's had strokes of genius. Having Lauri be the starting SF and go with a lineup consisting of three bigs was his idea, and it ended up working wonders for them. Most teams would have never even considered going that route given the landscape of the NBA today, but he saw value in the unique advantages that going that route would bring to the team. And when Evan Mobley was drafted by Cleveland, Bickerstaff was all for making him an immediate starter and putting him at PF, while having Kevin Love be their sixth man. As badly as he ended up screwing up in the end with Kevin, Bickerstaff saw the value in having him come off the bench in order to maximize his value and it worked wonders.

He's very good with players and knows how to humble them quickly. He knows that players can get full of themselves and he makes it clear that isn't going to fly on his team. Sometimes that works against him, but it's a good thing to have.

But his greatest quality without question is how good his teams are defensively. Everything changed for Cleveland when Jarrett Allen got traded there and he integrated a system built around him as the anchor. But Evan Mobley took them to another level. But under Bickerstaff, Allen took a big step as a defender compared to his time in Brooklyn. Dean Wade made remarkable strides as a defender since first coming to the team. But the one that gets me the most is how much better Mitchell has been as a defender since coming to Cleveland. Mark it down as him just putting in extra effort, but not doing so just isn't something Bickerstaff would accept. A coach committed to defense is an excellent quality, especially when he's actually good at it.

Bickerstaff has some really poor qualities as a coach, and you can argue they're a major reason for Cleveland's first round exit against NY (and I would agree with that take). Strangely enough, had Cleveland not made that trade for Mitchell, Bickerstaff's job probably wouldn't be at stake if they didn't at the very least make the second round this season. Cleveland very clearly has big aspirations for their roster, so they aren't willing to wait. But had it not been for the trade, they more than likely would be willing to wait, and I would even support that.

With that said, if we don't see major improvements to his offensive schemes and rotations, I agree that it's time to move on from him.

I'd just like to have a coach that gets the most of his players, not just manage egos and extol them to play hard when most other teams are cruising.

Why didn't he carve out a role that made more sense for Isaac before his 4th season in the league? And while the 3-big lineup was cool, imagine JBB had unlocked Lauri in Cleveland before the Mitchell trade? All he had to do was ask more out of his small forwards than standing in a corner waiting for a pass to a shoot a 3.

JBB can get better, but will the final version be worth the wait?

But hey, +1 for trying to see both sides.

So I've actually heard that argument before regarding how JB used Lauri and that he limited what Lauri could have done for the team. There's two sides to the argument here.

On one hand, I fully agree. I've stated before that I thought Lauri would have been the perfect second option alongside Garland. But on the other hand, let me ask you guys a question.

If Lauri was truly unlocked and became what he is now... aren't we just going through the same situation with Mobley then that we are now? Where we are now limiting Mobley's offensive potential and preventing him from being able to properly develop if we are prioritizing Lauri instead? I don't know, because what happened has happened and we're never going to know what going this route would have produced. But here's what I will say: that big lineup was a major reason for Cleveland surprising that season and doubling their record from the previous year. I don't think people realize how big of a deal that is. Cleveland's record double and part of the reason for that is because of changes to the lineup that JB made. He played a factor in that. That deserves a lot of credit, and it's credit he doesn't get enough of. And how he's used Mitchell since he's arrived to Cleveland deserves credit as well.

I don't know, I guess I kind of view this situation the same way I view what was going on with Erik Spolstra when he was first starting out with LeBron. I don't know if people remember this or not, but Erik actually got a lot of criticism throughout his first four years with Miami. Once LeBron left, Erik was able to try out new things and figure out how to truly be a better coach. I'm not saying that JB is on the level of Spo or that he ever will be... but the thing is, Spo had positive qualities that he could work off of. Some people don't have that and just aren't meant to be good coaches. Some are utterly hopeless and never change. Some are stuck to one mindset and wait way too long to change (looking at you pringles, seriously why did you wait until Houston to suddenly care about defense). JB has a lot of faults, but as someone who loves the defensive side of basketball and considers that more important, I love the idea of having a coach that specializes in it. I just wish he... knew what he was doing in other aspects.

And actually, you know what? I'm going to take this a step even further. Remember Mike Brown? This guy was actually even WORSE than Bickerstaff was when it came to coaching an offense during his first stint with Cleveland. He pretty much just ran everything through LeBron, he had no idea what he was doing. Doc Rivers of all people outcoached him decisively.

But now look at Mike Brown. He just won COY last season leading one of the most proficient offenses in the league. He's considered one of the most brilliant minds in that regard. Sometimes people just need time to figure things out.

A couple things here.

Spo became head coach in 2008 and the fact he was able to take those teams to the playoffs is impressive, i don't think he got criticism his first 2 seasons.

Brown did finally discover offense but it was only after spending 6 seasons as an assistant with one of the best offensive head coaches of all time. Brown also made the Finals in his 2nd season as a head coach... JB is in his 8th season as a head coach how much longer do the Cavs really have to give this guy? Not sure the logic tracks.

Lastly, how are you praising JB for how he uses Mitchell but talking down on Brown for doing that same thing with LeBron, they're literally 2 sides of the same coin, in that regard.

[Iwasawitness]

A couple things here.

Spo became head coach in 2008 and the fact he was able to take those teams to the playoffs is impressive, i don't think he got criticism his first 2 seasons.

Brown did finally discover offense but it was only after spending 6 seasons as an assistant with one of the best offensive head coaches of all time. Brown also made the Finals in his 2nd season as a head coach... JB is in his 8th season as a head coach how much longer do the Cavs really have to give this guy? Not sure the logic tracks.

Lastly, how are you praising JB for how he uses Mitchell but talking down on Brown for doing that same thing with LeBron, they're literally 2 sides of the same coin, in that regard.

Wow you are right, Spo did become the HC in 2008. Why did I think he didn't become head coach until the big three were formed? I might be getting that mixed up with Cleveland in 2015, who had a new HC when theirs formed in David Blatt (who obviously had a lot of experience beforehand but not in the NBA).

Brown did make the finals in his second season as a HC, but he had nothing to do with it. He does deserve some credit for helping turn that team into one of the better defensive squads in the league but let's be honest, LeBron is the entire reason that team made it. Brown made JB look like Popovich when it came to adjustments. His rotations were some of the worst I had ever seen. Again, he got outcoached by Doc Rivers. That much alone says it all.

Where I'm mistaken with how long Erik was HC for though, you're mistaken on JB. 8th season as the Cavs head coach? Where are you getting that information from? His first full season as HC was in 2020. This is only his fourth season.

If there is one thing that you can ever fault LeBron for, it's that he can never truly play within a system. And the thing is, Mike Brown is part of the reason for that. Once he took over, LeBron was the system. Everything relied entirely around LeBron. In my honest opinion, that wasn't the correct approach, and unfortunately, it did hurt LeBron in the long run. We saw how difficult it was for LeBron to do that in Miami, before they changed their approach and just ran everything through him.

JB made Mitchell care about defense again. He's forced him to become a positive asset on that end. You're telling me that doesn't deserve credit? Having Mitchell care for defense can only mean good things for Cleveland, especially long term if he chooses to stay. Not to mention, how Mitchell is used by Bickerstaff is different from how Brown used LeBron. They aren't the same situations.

[ijspeelman]

The Mobley Lauri question is an interesting one.

The Cavs season basically saved Lauri's career. He went from losing minutes on the not very good Bulls to being competent starter and actually good defender.

The Lauri year Cavs team rode high pre all-star break. From there, the wheels fell apart, be it injuries or learning how to attack the Cavs (probably both). The only scoring and playmaking hub we had was Garland so teams just started doubling him. There were nights were it worked out and others where it was the worst games of the season. We traded for Caris, I assume because of Rubio's ACL injury, and he was meant to be secondary hub for both scoring and playmaking. That year only his playmaking held up and he was an abysmal scorer (quick tangent: Cavs fans, myself included, turned on LeVert and that trade due to the loss of the FRP, but I'd like to give credit to LeVert and the staff in finding LeVert an impactful role where he no longer has the ball in his hands as often).

Suffice to say, there was room for two more secondary hubs around Garland. Mobley was a rookie and was much more unpolished than he now (not that he is polished). Well, Lauri was injured most of the post all-star break so we didn't get to see Lauri in a more defined role where he was a hub of offense. Its possible if we hold onto Lauri and do not trade for Mitchell, he still becomes what he was last year.

However, these points about these secondary hubs leads me to say trading for Mitchell doesn't effect my view of Mobley's timeline. The team is still using him as that tertiary hub and its a great role for a developing offensive player. It nice to see last year with a much greater hub of offense than LeVert and Lauri, that Mobley held his FGA/GM (3rd highest on the team behind Mitchell and Garland) and his TS% went up 5 ticks.

[JujitsuFlip]

A couple things here.

Spo became head coach in 2008 and the fact he was able to take those teams to the playoffs is impressive, i don't think he got criticism his first 2 seasons.

Brown did finally discover offense but it was only after spending 6 seasons as an assistant with one of the best offensive head coaches of all time. Brown also made the Finals in his 2nd season as a head coach... JB is in his 8th season as a head coach how much longer do the Cavs really have to give this guy? Not sure the logic tracks.

Lastly, how are you praising JB for how he uses Mitchell but talking down on Brown for doing that same thing with LeBron, they're literally 2 sides of the same coin, in that regard.

Wow you are right, Spo did become the HC in 2008. Why did I think he didn't become head coach until the big three were formed? I might be getting that mixed up with Cleveland in 2015, who had a new HC when theirs formed in David Blatt (who obviously had a lot of experience beforehand but not in the NBA).

Brown did make the finals in his second season as a HC, but he had nothing to do with it. He does deserve some credit for helping turn that team into one of the better defensive squads in the league but let's be honest, LeBron is the entire reason that team made it. Brown made JB look like Popovich when it came to adjustments. His rotations were some of the worst I had ever seen. Again, he got outcoached by Doc Rivers. That much alone says it all.

Where I'm mistaken with how long Erik was HC for though, you're mistaken on JB. 8th season as the Cavs head coach? Where are you getting that information from? His first full season as HC was in 2020. This is only his fourth season.

If there is one thing that you can ever fault LeBron for, it's that he can never truly play within a system. And the thing is, Mike Brown is part of the reason for that. Once he took over, LeBron was the system. Everything relied entirely around LeBron. In my honest opinion, that wasn't the correct approach, and unfortunately, it did hurt LeBron in the long run. We saw how difficult it was for LeBron to do that in Miami, before they changed their approach and just ran everything through him.

JB made Mitchell care about defense again. He's forced him to become a positive asset on that end. You're telling me that doesn't deserve credit? Having Mitchell care for defense can only mean good things for Cleveland, especially long term if he chooses to stay. Not to mention, how Mitchell is used by Bickerstaff is different from how Brown used LeBron. They aren't the same situations.

And JB just got out coached by Thibs, so what are we really talking about here?

It is JBs 8th season as a head coach in the NBA. If you want to exclude his partial season then he's in his 7th season as a head coach and if you exclude Mike's partial season he's only in his 9th season as a NBA head coach. The gap should NOT be this wide.

You're saying give JB more time, how much?

No, it doesn't deserve credit, the guy is a tank coach, if you want to actually compete JB is not the coach for the job, his résumé speaks for itself.

And no, it is no different. Mitchell is a iso heavy player without the facilitating ability of LeBron. He also lacks the size and strength to rebound like LeBron. He doesn't have the stamina of LeBron either, hence his stats go in the toilet in the playoffs.

[Iwasawitness]

And JB just got out coached by Thibs, so what are we really talking about here?

It is JBs 8th season as a head coach in the NBA. If you want to exclude his partial season then he's in his 7th season as a head coach and if you exclude Mike's partial season he's only in his 9th season as a NBA head coach. The gap should NOT be this wide.

Why not? There's clear improvement over his time with the Grizzlies compared to now, so at the very least it shows us that he's capable of learning.

You're saying give JB more time, how much?

I'm saying no such thing. In fact I thought I made it clear that if we don't make it to the second round at least, JB should be fired this season. That's not the point I'm trying to make.

No, it doesn't deserve credit, the guy is a tank coach, if you want to actually compete JB is not the coach for the job, his résumé speaks for itself.

What does any of that have to do with Mitchell's defense?

And no, it is no different. Mitchell is a iso heavy player without the facilitating ability of LeBron. He also lacks the size and strength to rebound like LeBron. He doesn't have the stamina of LeBron either, hence his stats go in the toilet in the playoffs.

You just said why it is in fact different. I don't think you realize what it is you're saying.

It's very clear you aren't going to give JBB any positive credit. In your eyes he's apparently the worst thing to ever happen to this franchise for whatever reason and that's on you to believe that. So I'm going to move on from this.