Cavs trade for Mitchell.

[ijspeelman]

Geeked is synonymous with happy, hence why i said his vibe was just happy to be there (the playoffs/NYC/MSG).

His play is what showed he was overwhelmed by the moment.

In the 2 road playoff games his statline was 16.5 ppg/-1.0 A:TO/5.5 rebs/3.5 fouls on atrocious shooting splits 37.8% FG, 16.7% from deep, and 60% from the charity stripe.

Oof.

Mitchell has a career 28/5/5 playoff average, I'm not assuming he was overwhelmed or the moment was too big for him or any of that. He was dealing with a groin injury, and if anything he might have been a bit too excited, running on adrenaline, etc.

And credit to the Knicks who had a plan that worked to steal home court and even adjusted it after game 2 to lock down the series.

Who cares what his career playoff averages are, tbh.

It's a what have you did for me lately league, especially given the assets surrendered for Mitchell... An All-Star, 3 unprotected first round picks, 2 unprotected pick swaps, draft rights to a lottery pick, and Collin Sexton.

The past 2 seasons Mitchell has been putrid in the playoffs... 24.5 ppg means nothing if it is on 46.2 eFG% - 51.1 TS%.

As for the bolded, that is a problem with the league and its fans. Its better to not base your opinions on players based on small sample sizes while ignoring context.

Case in point, Jokic who has been regarded as "not a winning player" since he has "never done anything in the playoffs" and that "you cannot win with him because of his defense". None of this has ever been true, but its been repeated for at least the last three years, completely ignoring the actual context of his play and the team surrounding him.

The narrative is now flipped, and if they lose the finals it will flip right back.

I know we've said this multiple times, and you don't like this due to the assets given up, but the Mitchell move was a move for the future, not this season. We have a lot more sample size left to decide if this trade was a failure or success.

[JujitsuFlip]

Mitchell has a career 28/5/5 playoff average, I'm not assuming he was overwhelmed or the moment was too big for him or any of that. He was dealing with a groin injury, and if anything he might have been a bit too excited, running on adrenaline, etc.

And credit to the Knicks who had a plan that worked to steal home court and even adjusted it after game 2 to lock down the series.

Who cares what his career playoff averages are, tbh.

It's a what have you did for me lately league, especially given the assets surrendered for Mitchell... An All-Star, 3 unprotected first round picks, 2 unprotected pick swaps, draft rights to a lottery pick, and Collin Sexton.

The past 2 seasons Mitchell has been putrid in the playoffs... 24.5 ppg means nothing if it is on 46.2 eFG% - 51.1 TS%.

As for the bolded, that is a problem with the league and its fans. Its better to not base your opinions on players based on small sample sizes while ignoring context.

Case in point, Jokic who has been regarded as "not a winning player" since he has "never done anything in the playoffs" and that "you cannot win with him because of his defense". None of this has ever been true, but its been repeated for at least the last three years, completely ignoring the actual context of his play and the team surrounding him.

The narrative is now flipped, and if they lose the finals it will flip right back.

I know we've said this multiple times, and you don't like this due to the assets given up, but the Mitchell move was a move for the future, not this season. We have a lot more sample size left to decide if this trade was a failure or success.

To your last paragraph, given Mitchell's contract, it is impossible for it to be such.

If he extends next summer, I will 100% agree with you guys and join that line of thinking. As circumstances currently are and were last season, no, it's not a move for the future. It was a win now move that in year 1, failed and will make building upon it, difficult, given Mitchell's contract situation.

[ijspeelman]

Who cares what his career playoff averages are, tbh.

It's a what have you did for me lately league, especially given the assets surrendered for Mitchell... An All-Star, 3 unprotected first round picks, 2 unprotected pick swaps, draft rights to a lottery pick, and Collin Sexton.

The past 2 seasons Mitchell has been putrid in the playoffs... 24.5 ppg means nothing if it is on 46.2 eFG% - 51.1 TS%.

As for the bolded, that is a problem with the league and its fans. Its better to not base your opinions on players based on small sample sizes while ignoring context.

Case in point, Jokic who has been regarded as "not a winning player" since he has "never done anything in the playoffs" and that "you cannot win with him because of his defense". None of this has ever been true, but its been repeated for at least the last three years, completely ignoring the actual context of his play and the team surrounding him.

The narrative is now flipped, and if they lose the finals it will flip right back.

I know we've said this multiple times, and you don't like this due to the assets given up, but the Mitchell move was a move for the future, not this season. We have a lot more sample size left to decide if this trade was a failure or success.

To your last paragraph, given Mitchell's contract, it is impossible for it to be such.

If he extends next summer, I will 100% agree with you guys and join that line of thinking. As circumstances currently are and were last season, no, it's not a move for the future. It was a win now move that in year 1, failed and will make building upon it, difficult, given Mitchell's contract situation.

I can understand why you and a lot of fans are thinking that way. If this was purely a move for right now, last season, then it was a mistake. The team is not ready for a finals run (yet, hopefully).

The team is young and needs more experience before getting there, even with a floor raiser like Mitchell. So, to make the trade make sense to me, this had to be a move where the FO had to think, "okay, we've got at least three years with this guy, lets get some chemistry, bolster the roster with role players, and then make our move."

[toooskies]

As for the bolded, that is a problem with the league and its fans. Its better to not base your opinions on players based on small sample sizes while ignoring context.

Case in point, Jokic who has been regarded as "not a winning player" since he has "never done anything in the playoffs" and that "you cannot win with him because of his defense". None of this has ever been true, but its been repeated for at least the last three years, completely ignoring the actual context of his play and the team surrounding him.

The narrative is now flipped, and if they lose the finals it will flip right back.

I know we've said this multiple times, and you don't like this due to the assets given up, but the Mitchell move was a move for the future, not this season. We have a lot more sample size left to decide if this trade was a failure or success.

To your last paragraph, given Mitchell's contract, it is impossible for it to be such.

If he extends next summer, I will 100% agree with you guys and join that line of thinking. As circumstances currently are and were last season, no, it's not a move for the future. It was a win now move that in year 1, failed and will make building upon it, difficult, given Mitchell's contract situation.

I can understand why you and a lot of fans are thinking that way. If this was purely a move for right now, last season, then it was a mistake. The team is not ready for a finals run (yet, hopefully).

The team is young and needs more experience before getting there, even with a floor raiser like Mitchell. So, to make the trade make sense to me, this had to be a move where the FO had to think, "okay, we've got at least three years with this guy, lets get some chemistry, bolster the roster with role players, and then make our move."

We were mentally at a disadvantage. Mitchell had some "I'm playing in MSG in the playoffs" head games to work around. Allen thought the lights were too bright. Okoro and Mobley both started out the series nervous and rushing themselves, and Mobley stayed that way. JBB was too intent on playing chess while the other team was in a boxing match.

[JonFromVA]

Geeked is synonymous with happy, hence why i said his vibe was just happy to be there (the playoffs/NYC/MSG).

His play is what showed he was overwhelmed by the moment.

In the 2 road playoff games his statline was 16.5 ppg/-1.0 A:TO/5.5 rebs/3.5 fouls on atrocious shooting splits 37.8% FG, 16.7% from deep, and 60% from the charity stripe.

Oof.

Mitchell has a career 28/5/5 playoff average, I'm not assuming he was overwhelmed or the moment was too big for him or any of that. He was dealing with a groin injury, and if anything he might have been a bit too excited, running on adrenaline, etc.

And credit to the Knicks who had a plan that worked to steal home court and even adjusted it after game 2 to lock down the series.

Who cares what his career playoff averages are, tbh.

It's a what have you did for me lately league, especially given the assets surrendered for Mitchell... An All-Star, 3 unprotected first round picks, 2 unprotected pick swaps, draft rights to a lottery pick, and Collin Sexton.

The past 2 seasons Mitchell has been putrid in the playoffs... 24.5 ppg means nothing if it is on 46.2 eFG% - 51.1 TS%.

If you want to say he stunk the past two seasons in the playoffs, sure, ... he did by his standards. If you want to ponder why he stunk, I feel playing through injuries these past two playoffs is a more plausible reason than he suddenly became "overwhelmed" by the bright lights, fan noise, hype, etc.

[JujitsuFlip]

To your last paragraph, given Mitchell's contract, it is impossible for it to be such.

If he extends next summer, I will 100% agree with you guys and join that line of thinking. As circumstances currently are and were last season, no, it's not a move for the future. It was a win now move that in year 1, failed and will make building upon it, difficult, given Mitchell's contract situation.

I can understand why you and a lot of fans are thinking that way. If this was purely a move for right now, last season, then it was a mistake. The team is not ready for a finals run (yet, hopefully).

The team is young and needs more experience before getting there, even with a floor raiser like Mitchell. So, to make the trade make sense to me, this had to be a move where the FO had to think, "okay, we've got at least three years with this guy, lets get some chemistry, bolster the roster with role players, and then make our move."

We were mentally at a disadvantage. Mitchell had some "I'm playing in MSG in the playoffs" head games to work around. Allen thought the lights were too bright. Okoro and Mobley both started out the series nervous and rushing themselves, and Mobley stayed that way. JBB was too intent on playing chess while the other team was in a boxing match.

Lol that is such a good way to put it. JB is in over his head, without a doubt.

That's 2 post seasons in a row JB fumbled the bag. He had 2 chances to win 1 game, failed to do it. Follows it up with HCA yet can only muster 1 win.

[JonFromVA]

I can understand why you and a lot of fans are thinking that way. If this was purely a move for right now, last season, then it was a mistake. The team is not ready for a finals run (yet, hopefully).

The team is young and needs more experience before getting there, even with a floor raiser like Mitchell. So, to make the trade make sense to me, this had to be a move where the FO had to think, "okay, we've got at least three years with this guy, lets get some chemistry, bolster the roster with role players, and then make our move."

We were mentally at a disadvantage. Mitchell had some "I'm playing in MSG in the playoffs" head games to work around. Allen thought the lights were too bright. Okoro and Mobley both started out the series nervous and rushing themselves, and Mobley stayed that way. JBB was too intent on playing chess while the other team was in a boxing match.

Lol that is such a good way to put it. JB is in over his head, without a doubt.

That's 2 post seasons in a row JB fumbled the bag. He had 2 chances to win 1 game, failed to do it. Follows it up with HCA yet can only muster 1 win.

Can you imagine JBB coaching like his career is on the line?

We need to consider that he hasn't even been an assistant on a teams with much success. Looks like the pinnacle of his coaching career was when Houston won a couple of rounds with McHale as head coach.

Alas, even with some decent coaching candidates out there, Dan Gilbert has never paid for an experienced/premium head coach or GM.

Hate to think Luke Walton will be our coach in waiting if the decision is made to pull the plug on JBB during the season, but that's how the Cavs have operated.

[JujitsuFlip]

We were mentally at a disadvantage. Mitchell had some "I'm playing in MSG in the playoffs" head games to work around. Allen thought the lights were too bright. Okoro and Mobley both started out the series nervous and rushing themselves, and Mobley stayed that way. JBB was too intent on playing chess while the other team was in a boxing match.

Lol that is such a good way to put it. JB is in over his head, without a doubt.

That's 2 post seasons in a row JB fumbled the bag. He had 2 chances to win 1 game, failed to do it. Follows it up with HCA yet can only muster 1 win.

Can you imagine JBB coaching like his career is on the line?

We need to consider that he hasn't even been an assistant on a teams with much success. Looks like the pinnacle of his coaching career was when Houston won a couple of rounds with McHale as head coach.

Alas, even with some decent coaching candidates out there, Dan Gilbert has never paid for an experienced/premium head coach or GM.

Hate to think Luke Walton will be our coach in waiting if the decision is made to pull the plug on JBB during the season, but that's how the Cavs have operated.

I've been following the Cavs for 20 years and they've always been cheap at HC and GM, like you said.

The one thing I would say is they typically promote the associate HC if one is on staff, so that would be Greg Buckner, currently. If he turned it down, I could see the Gilbert's going with Luke.

[JonFromVA]

Lol that is such a good way to put it. JB is in over his head, without a doubt.

That's 2 post seasons in a row JB fumbled the bag. He had 2 chances to win 1 game, failed to do it. Follows it up with HCA yet can only muster 1 win.

Can you imagine JBB coaching like his career is on the line?

We need to consider that he hasn't even been an assistant on a teams with much success. Looks like the pinnacle of his coaching career was when Houston won a couple of rounds with McHale as head coach.

Alas, even with some decent coaching candidates out there, Dan Gilbert has never paid for an experienced/premium head coach or GM.

Hate to think Luke Walton will be our coach in waiting if the decision is made to pull the plug on JBB during the season, but that's how the Cavs have operated.

I've been following the Cavs for 20 years and they've always been cheap at HC and GM, like you said.

The one thing I would say is they typically promote the associate HC if one is on staff, so that would be Greg Buckner, currently. If he turned it down, I could see the Gilbert's going with Luke.

Good point, alas Buckner has far less experience/credentials than Walton. The Cavs of course have other options, like bringing back a former assistant, even a former player, someone with Detroit connections, etc, but doing something like hiring Budenholzer or Doc Rivers who are still out there and have actually coached a team to a championship seems out of character.

Hopefully Altman and Bickerstaff quickly get the train back on the tracks and fill up some of the holes this Summer because while a coaching or GM change could be beneficial if it brought some new productive ideas and approaches, it could also be a set back if we once again hire people who need to learn on the job.

[TheLand13]

Mitchell has a career 28/5/5 playoff average, I'm not assuming he was overwhelmed or the moment was too big for him or any of that. He was dealing with a groin injury, and if anything he might have been a bit too excited, running on adrenaline, etc.

And credit to the Knicks who had a plan that worked to steal home court and even adjusted it after game 2 to lock down the series.

Who cares what his career playoff averages are, tbh.

It's a what have you did for me lately league, especially given the assets surrendered for Mitchell... An All-Star, 3 unprotected first round picks, 2 unprotected pick swaps, draft rights to a lottery pick, and Collin Sexton.

The past 2 seasons Mitchell has been putrid in the playoffs... 24.5 ppg means nothing if it is on 46.2 eFG% - 51.1 TS%.

If you want to say he stunk the past two seasons in the playoffs, sure, ... he did by his standards. If you want to ponder why he stunk, I feel playing through injuries these past two playoffs is a more plausible reason than he suddenly became "overwhelmed" by the bright lights, fan noise, hype, etc.

Was Mitchell really playing injured? This is the first time I’m hearing about it. But if that’s the case, that changes things.

[JujitsuFlip]

Who cares what his career playoff averages are, tbh.

It's a what have you did for me lately league, especially given the assets surrendered for Mitchell... An All-Star, 3 unprotected first round picks, 2 unprotected pick swaps, draft rights to a lottery pick, and Collin Sexton.

The past 2 seasons Mitchell has been putrid in the playoffs... 24.5 ppg means nothing if it is on 46.2 eFG% - 51.1 TS%.

If you want to say he stunk the past two seasons in the playoffs, sure, ... he did by his standards. If you want to ponder why he stunk, I feel playing through injuries these past two playoffs is a more plausible reason than he suddenly became "overwhelmed" by the bright lights, fan noise, hype, etc.

Was Mitchell really playing injured? This is the first time I’m hearing about it. But if that’s the case, that changes things.

It's like Jimmy Butler said, if you're out there, you're considered healthy. Eveyone is beat up this time of year, especially playing for a coach like JB who ran an 8 man rotation since November.

[JonFromVA]

If you want to say he stunk the past two seasons in the playoffs, sure, ... he did by his standards. If you want to ponder why he stunk, I feel playing through injuries these past two playoffs is a more plausible reason than he suddenly became "overwhelmed" by the bright lights, fan noise, hype, etc.

Was Mitchell really playing injured? This is the first time I’m hearing about it. But if that’s the case, that changes things.

It's like Jimmy Butler said, if you're out there, you're considered healthy. Eveyone is beat up this time of year, especially playing for a coach like JB who ran an 8 man rotation since November.

Jimmy is spewing the player's creed on the topic, plus most teams don't like to be specific about injuries lest an opponent target it; but we're not bound to any such constraints in our attempts to understand what happened and whether it will or will not repeat.

If you're watching the games day to day, you can't miss the injuries occurring and then the re-aggravations as Garland starts grabbing at his thumb or suffering in pain due to a another blow to his eye; or Mitchell starts limping because he slipped on the court and re-tweaked his groin. Still some are pretty subtle like Dean's shoulder and some are completely unadvertised. And while Jarrett Allen returned to action after a late season groin injury of his own, we're in no place to say that didn't still affect him .vs. the Knicks.

Foxsports nicely compiles a list of the reported injuries:

https://www.foxsports.com/nba/cleveland-cavaliers-team-injuries

So just in the case of Garland, we've got a Leg, a Quad, a Thumb, a Knee, and an Eye. Only the Thumb was reported multiple times, but the eye injury definitely lingered.

And piling on the minutes and asking the players to fight through screens and other physical actions does not help.

Of course other teams suffer their own injuries and we shouldn't neglect that either. Randle had a bad Ankle, Hart twisted his too, Grimes missed multiple games due to a shoulder injury.

So all the credit to the Knicks for overcoming their injuries and exploiting their secret weapon - which as I pointed out before the series was their offensive rebounding. The Cavs offense still revolved around Garland and Mitchell and we needed them to show up and play great more often than not.

[TheLand13]

If you want to say he stunk the past two seasons in the playoffs, sure, ... he did by his standards. If you want to ponder why he stunk, I feel playing through injuries these past two playoffs is a more plausible reason than he suddenly became "overwhelmed" by the bright lights, fan noise, hype, etc.

Was Mitchell really playing injured? This is the first time I’m hearing about it. But if that’s the case, that changes things.

It's like Jimmy Butler said, if you're out there, you're considered healthy. Eveyone is beat up this time of year, especially playing for a coach like JB who ran an 8 man rotation since November.

I don’t disagree with what butler said, but it puts Mitchell’s struggles into a different perspective. I’ve never bought into the idea of the moment being too big for someone like Mitchell, especially given how he’s performed in the playoffs in the past. And it’s not like NY locked him down or anything of the sort. They did defend him well but he was missing a lot of point blank shots that he had no problem hitting throughout the season and in past postseasons. All I’m saying on the matter is if he was in fact injured, then fair enough and I’m not going to hold his performance against him. But at the same time though, it sets an expectation for next season if he’s healthy. If that’s the case, his numbers better look different. I’m not saying they need to be similar to what he did in the bubble, which was insane, but an improvement would be welcomed.

[JonFromVA]

Was Mitchell really playing injured? This is the first time I’m hearing about it. But if that’s the case, that changes things.

It's like Jimmy Butler said, if you're out there, you're considered healthy. Eveyone is beat up this time of year, especially playing for a coach like JB who ran an 8 man rotation since November.

I don’t disagree with what butler said, but it puts Mitchell’s struggles into a different perspective. I’ve never bought into the idea of the moment being too big for someone like Mitchell, especially given how he’s performed in the playoffs in the past. And it’s not like NY locked him down or anything of the sort. They did defend him well but he was missing a lot of point blank shots that he had no problem hitting throughout the season and in past postseasons. All I’m saying on the matter is if he was in fact injured, then fair enough and I’m not going to hold his performance against him. But at the same time though, it sets an expectation for next season if he’s healthy. If that’s the case, his numbers better look different. I’m not saying they need to be similar to what he did in the bubble, which was insane, but an improvement would be welcomed.

fwiw, there can be more than one thing going on with a player, but I try to let the evidence drive my opinions and we know he was dealing with an injured groin this post-season and a hamstring last. These are injuries that don't really heal without a lot of rest and can easily be aggravated.

[TheLand13]

It's like Jimmy Butler said, if you're out there, you're considered healthy. Eveyone is beat up this time of year, especially playing for a coach like JB who ran an 8 man rotation since November.

I don’t disagree with what butler said, but it puts Mitchell’s struggles into a different perspective. I’ve never bought into the idea of the moment being too big for someone like Mitchell, especially given how he’s performed in the playoffs in the past. And it’s not like NY locked him down or anything of the sort. They did defend him well but he was missing a lot of point blank shots that he had no problem hitting throughout the season and in past postseasons. All I’m saying on the matter is if he was in fact injured, then fair enough and I’m not going to hold his performance against him. But at the same time though, it sets an expectation for next season if he’s healthy. If that’s the case, his numbers better look different. I’m not saying they need to be similar to what he did in the bubble, which was insane, but an improvement would be welcomed.

fwiw, there can be more than one thing going on with a player, but I try to let the evidence drive my opinions and we know he was dealing with an injured groin this post-season and a hamstring last. These are injuries that don't really heal without a lot of rest and can easily be aggravated.

And they can also be very difficult to play through. It is what it is, but nonetheless I’m still happy that we are running it back with the current group.

[JonFromVA]

I don’t disagree with what butler said, but it puts Mitchell’s struggles into a different perspective. I’ve never bought into the idea of the moment being too big for someone like Mitchell, especially given how he’s performed in the playoffs in the past. And it’s not like NY locked him down or anything of the sort. They did defend him well but he was missing a lot of point blank shots that he had no problem hitting throughout the season and in past postseasons. All I’m saying on the matter is if he was in fact injured, then fair enough and I’m not going to hold his performance against him. But at the same time though, it sets an expectation for next season if he’s healthy. If that’s the case, his numbers better look different. I’m not saying they need to be similar to what he did in the bubble, which was insane, but an improvement would be welcomed.

fwiw, there can be more than one thing going on with a player, but I try to let the evidence drive my opinions and we know he was dealing with an injured groin this post-season and a hamstring last. These are injuries that don't really heal without a lot of rest and can easily be aggravated.

And they can also be very difficult to play through. It is what it is, but nonetheless I’m still happy that we are running it back with the current group.

We know full well that championships are often determined by health as much as talent; and while we can always hope our team is the exception - experience is huge too.

Jimmy Butler's career is pretty much a lesson in patience from his early career contending with Rose and Noah; to his failed team-up with DWade, to trying and failing to turn things around with Thibs, KAT, and Wiggins in Minnesota; to his frustration in not being treated like he felt he deserved in Philly; to his first trip to the Bubble Finals at 31 to his return 3 years later this season.

All that from a 3 year college player who didn't play his first game in the NBA until he was 22, was the 30th pick, and averaged 2.6 ppg as a rookie. And until he landed in Miami, people openly wondered if he was a team wrecker.

We need to create an environment where players want to stay and grow and then see where it takes us. Alas, that begins from the top down.

[JujitsuFlip]

https://www.si.com/.amp/nba/2023/07/24/nba-insider-doesnt-see-any-chance-cleveland-cavaliers-donovan-mitchell-re-signs

Time for the monthly Mitchell is destined to leave report.

[gflem]

https://www.si.com/.amp/nba/2023/07/24/nba-insider-doesnt-see-any-chance-cleveland-cavaliers-donovan-mitchell-re-signs

Time for the monthly Mitchell is destined to leave report.

I remember way back when it was Lebron that was a "done deal" going to the Knicks. History repeats itself. We actually had a rule on this board, "No Knicks trades" for a season or two.

[JujitsuFlip]

https://www.si.com/.amp/nba/2023/07/24/nba-insider-doesnt-see-any-chance-cleveland-cavaliers-donovan-mitchell-re-signs

Time for the monthly Mitchell is destined to leave report.

I remember way back when it was Lebron that was a "done deal" going to the Knicks. History repeats itself. We actually had a rule on this board, "No Knicks trades" for a season or two.

Hahaha i saw a guy comment that everytime LeBron has been a FA he was supposed to go to the Knicks.

I do think it is a little different for Mitchell though, being from the NE and really seeming to enjoy rubbing elbows with New Yorkers.

[gflem]

https://www.si.com/.amp/nba/2023/07/24/nba-insider-doesnt-see-any-chance-cleveland-cavaliers-donovan-mitchell-re-signs

Time for the monthly Mitchell is destined to leave report.

I remember way back when it was Lebron that was a "done deal" going to the Knicks. History repeats itself. We actually had a rule on this board, "No Knicks trades" for a season or two.

Hahaha i saw a guy comment that everytime LeBron has been a FA he was supposed to go to the Knicks.

I do think it is a little different for Mitchell though, being from the NE and really seeming to enjoy rubbing elbows with New Yorkers.

Yeah, definitely different situation, but the obnoxious attitude of the msm in regard to the teams on the coasts hasn't changed. Someone should ask them when was the last time the Knicks were actually relevant?