Game 11: Cavs @ Trailblazers 11/15/2023

[JujitsuFlip]

But I guess they had enough in the tank to get the gentleman's sweep on us, and take Miami to 6.

The Knicks also had 9 guys playing 15.9 or more minutes per game in the playoffs and a situational 10th guy vs the Cavs 6 man playoff rotation... But heck yeah man, keep blindly defending JB, lmfao

Okay, so it wasn't the progressive fatigue from the regular season, it was the tight rotation in that 5 game series?

Progressive fatigue is real, idc w.e narrative you're trying to spin to defend the wet paper bag.

[toooskies]

The Knicks also had 9 guys playing 15.9 or more minutes per game in the playoffs and a situational 10th guy vs the Cavs 6 man playoff rotation... But heck yeah man, keep blindly defending JB, lmfao

Okay, so it wasn't the progressive fatigue from the regular season, it was the tight rotation in that 5 game series?

Progressive fatigue is real, idc w.e narrative you're trying to spin to defend the wet paper bag.

He's pretty much saying the Knicks should have had as much progressive fatigue as the Cavs, at least in the backcourt.

The players who seemed the most tired to me were in the frontcourt, particularly Allen and Mobley. Remember how I was saying we needed to add a legit third big this offseason, and instead we got Georges Niang, Damian Jones, and Tristan Thompson? Not my ideal choices there. At least TT has proved to be somewhat playable.

Mobley and Allen are playing career-lows in minutes. Mobley in particular is interesting because of Allen's minutes restrictions. Slow progress in the right direction is still progress.

[JonFromVA]

What if what you're seeing is actually the team topping out it's capability in the regular season b/c JBB is good at motivating them, and they were outclassed last year by a team that had another gear for a few games?

Mitchell and Garland had 11 days off after we locked our seed in before the Knicks series to get right. Mobley and Allen asked to play a game in there just to try to stay in rhythm. Nobody was worn out to start the playoffs.

Meh, i don't think 11 days erases 6 months of wear and tear on the body. This is coming from a guy who works out 4 to 5 days per week, no where near the level and intensity of the core 4.

Progressive fatigue is real and it has been prevalent April 2022 and April 2023, to me. If you thought they looked like fully healthy and rested players, cool, i just strongly disagree lol

What if I told you that Randle played more minutes than Mobley last season, and both Barrett and Hart logged more minutes than Garland and Mitchell?

You have to look at injuries and how they interact with minutes, they both take their toll in combination.

For instance, it should have been perfectly clear that Randle was playing through injuries and was nearly useless in large part because of them. He is still a big guy so he could push other players around.

If you want to argue we should be building our team around bigger, stronger, and more durable players who can still perform even when they aren't physically close to 100%, that'd be fair I suppose.

[JujitsuFlip]

Okay, so it wasn't the progressive fatigue from the regular season, it was the tight rotation in that 5 game series?

Progressive fatigue is real, idc w.e narrative you're trying to spin to defend the wet paper bag.

He's pretty much saying the Knicks should have had as much progressive fatigue as the Cavs, at least in the backcourt.

The players who seemed the most tired to me were in the frontcourt, particularly Allen and Mobley. Remember how I was saying we needed to add a legit third big this offseason, and instead we got Georges Niang, Damian Jones, and Tristan Thompson? Not my ideal choices there. At least TT has proved to be somewhat playable.

Mobley and Allen are playing career-lows in minutes. Mobley in particular is interesting because of Allen's minutes restrictions. Slow progress in the right direction is still progress.

I understand he's trying to justify JB playing 8 guys in November, as a couple others are. It's the same flawed logic Cavs fans use that spreading the floor wasn't the issue in that series because we shot a higher percentage from 3 than them LOL

To the last point, Allen is on a minute restriction from the medical staff, so i wouldn't give JB too much credit there.

It's only 11 games but Mobley is down a minute or two per game, we'll see where he ends up. I'd say a lot of that is JB just playing smaller because Strus is playing a career high in MPG by a wide margin. Mitchell and LeVert are also playing a career high in MPG, with Niang being a couple seconds shy of also playing a career high in MPG.

Edit: so i wouldn't characterize it as progress...

[toooskies]

Progressive fatigue is real, idc w.e narrative you're trying to spin to defend the wet paper bag.

He's pretty much saying the Knicks should have had as much progressive fatigue as the Cavs, at least in the backcourt.

The players who seemed the most tired to me were in the frontcourt, particularly Allen and Mobley. Remember how I was saying we needed to add a legit third big this offseason, and instead we got Georges Niang, Damian Jones, and Tristan Thompson? Not my ideal choices there. At least TT has proved to be somewhat playable.

Mobley and Allen are playing career-lows in minutes. Mobley in particular is interesting because of Allen's minutes restrictions. Slow progress in the right direction is still progress.

I understand he's trying to justify JB playing 8 guys in November, as a couple others are. It's the same flawed logic Cavs fans use that spreading the floor wasn't the issue in that series because we shot a higher percentage from 3 than them LOL

To the last point, Allen is on a minute restriction from the medical staff, so i wouldn't give JB too much credit there.

It's only 11 games but Mobley is down a minute or two per game, we'll see where he ends up. I'd say a lot of that is JB just playing smaller because Strus is playing a career high in MPG by a wide margin. Mitchell and LeVert are also playing a career high in MPG, with Niang being a couple seconds shy of also playing a career high in MPG.

Edit: so i wouldn't characterize it as progress...

Tell me who you want to play more. Make the case Merrill, Jones, or Thompson should be out there more. Make the case Emoni won't be a massive negative when he steps on the court.

It's a GM failure that we're sitting here with an open roster spot and a couple of guys in their late 20s who don't deserve to be on the court when a quarter of the active roster is hurt, but that's the reality.

Also, be clear about whose minute loads are too high. Maybe Strus? Maybe 2 too many minutes per game for Mitchell? But with the injuries we've had, those are to be expected. You could argue for quicker white flags in some of our losses, but we haven't had convincing leads in any games to experiment mid-game. Niang and Wade might deserve performance-based cutbacks but there's nobody putting pressure on them to take their spots.

Mobley hasn't gone over 36 minutes in a game yet-- fewer minutes that he played as early as game 1 of the 2021-22 season. He's being handled responsibly, even with Allen's absence.

[JujitsuFlip]

He's pretty much saying the Knicks should have had as much progressive fatigue as the Cavs, at least in the backcourt.

The players who seemed the most tired to me were in the frontcourt, particularly Allen and Mobley. Remember how I was saying we needed to add a legit third big this offseason, and instead we got Georges Niang, Damian Jones, and Tristan Thompson? Not my ideal choices there. At least TT has proved to be somewhat playable.

Mobley and Allen are playing career-lows in minutes. Mobley in particular is interesting because of Allen's minutes restrictions. Slow progress in the right direction is still progress.

I understand he's trying to justify JB playing 8 guys in November, as a couple others are. It's the same flawed logic Cavs fans use that spreading the floor wasn't the issue in that series because we shot a higher percentage from 3 than them LOL

To the last point, Allen is on a minute restriction from the medical staff, so i wouldn't give JB too much credit there.

It's only 11 games but Mobley is down a minute or two per game, we'll see where he ends up. I'd say a lot of that is JB just playing smaller because Strus is playing a career high in MPG by a wide margin. Mitchell and LeVert are also playing a career high in MPG, with Niang being a couple seconds shy of also playing a career high in MPG.

Edit: so i wouldn't characterize it as progress...

Tell me who you want to play more. Make the case Merrill, Jones, or Thompson should be out there more. Make the case Emoni won't be a massive negative when he steps on the court.

It's a GM failure that we're sitting here with an open roster spot and a couple of guys in their late 20s who don't deserve to be on the court when a quarter of the active roster is hurt, but that's the reality.

Also, be clear about whose minute loads are too high. Maybe Strus? Maybe 2 too many minutes per game for Mitchell? But with the injuries we've had, those are to be expected. You could argue for quicker white flags in some of our losses, but we haven't had convincing leads in any games to experiment mid-game. Niang and Wade might deserve performance-based cutbacks but there's nobody putting pressure on them to take their spots.

Mobley hasn't gone over 36 minutes in a game yet-- fewer minutes that he played as early as game 1 of the 2021-22 season. He's being handled responsibly, even with Allen's absence.

Hey man, you're shooting the messenger here.

I am not the one who last month, publicly went in front of people with recorders, cameras, and pencils to say i would go 11 deep every night and i trusted my entire roster.

JB Bickerstaff is the one who did/said that.

No one forced him to say that. Since taking over the team during the 2019-20 season JB has consistently played a tight regular season rotation. If he said nothing people woulda assumed he was just going to do that again, there's no reason to lie about it.

[toooskies]

I understand he's trying to justify JB playing 8 guys in November, as a couple others are. It's the same flawed logic Cavs fans use that spreading the floor wasn't the issue in that series because we shot a higher percentage from 3 than them LOL

To the last point, Allen is on a minute restriction from the medical staff, so i wouldn't give JB too much credit there.

It's only 11 games but Mobley is down a minute or two per game, we'll see where he ends up. I'd say a lot of that is JB just playing smaller because Strus is playing a career high in MPG by a wide margin. Mitchell and LeVert are also playing a career high in MPG, with Niang being a couple seconds shy of also playing a career high in MPG.

Edit: so i wouldn't characterize it as progress...

Tell me who you want to play more. Make the case Merrill, Jones, or Thompson should be out there more. Make the case Emoni won't be a massive negative when he steps on the court.

It's a GM failure that we're sitting here with an open roster spot and a couple of guys in their late 20s who don't deserve to be on the court when a quarter of the active roster is hurt, but that's the reality.

Also, be clear about whose minute loads are too high. Maybe Strus? Maybe 2 too many minutes per game for Mitchell? But with the injuries we've had, those are to be expected. You could argue for quicker white flags in some of our losses, but we haven't had convincing leads in any games to experiment mid-game. Niang and Wade might deserve performance-based cutbacks but there's nobody putting pressure on them to take their spots.

Mobley hasn't gone over 36 minutes in a game yet-- fewer minutes that he played as early as game 1 of the 2021-22 season. He's being handled responsibly, even with Allen's absence.

Hey man, you're shooting the messenger here.

I am not the one who last month, publicly went in front of people with recorders, cameras, and pencils to say i would go 11 deep every night and i trusted my entire roster.

JB Bickerstaff is the one who did/said that.

No one forced him to say that. Since taking over the team during the 2019-20 season JB has consistently played a tight regular season rotation. If he said nothing people woulda assumed he was just going to do that again, there's no reason to lie about it.

If he's asked a question, what's he supposed to say, my boss can't fill out a roster? He might play 10 or 11 guys if everybody was healthy, but they aren't.

[JujitsuFlip]

Tell me who you want to play more. Make the case Merrill, Jones, or Thompson should be out there more. Make the case Emoni won't be a massive negative when he steps on the court.

It's a GM failure that we're sitting here with an open roster spot and a couple of guys in their late 20s who don't deserve to be on the court when a quarter of the active roster is hurt, but that's the reality.

Also, be clear about whose minute loads are too high. Maybe Strus? Maybe 2 too many minutes per game for Mitchell? But with the injuries we've had, those are to be expected. You could argue for quicker white flags in some of our losses, but we haven't had convincing leads in any games to experiment mid-game. Niang and Wade might deserve performance-based cutbacks but there's nobody putting pressure on them to take their spots.

Mobley hasn't gone over 36 minutes in a game yet-- fewer minutes that he played as early as game 1 of the 2021-22 season. He's being handled responsibly, even with Allen's absence.

Hey man, you're shooting the messenger here.

I am not the one who last month, publicly went in front of people with recorders, cameras, and pencils to say i would go 11 deep every night and i trusted my entire roster.

JB Bickerstaff is the one who did/said that.

No one forced him to say that. Since taking over the team during the 2019-20 season JB has consistently played a tight regular season rotation. If he said nothing people woulda assumed he was just going to do that again, there's no reason to lie about it.

If he's asked a question, what's he supposed to say, my boss can't fill out a roster? He might play 10 or 11 guys if everybody was healthy, but they aren't.

No he won't lol it gives him the heebie jeebies to play more than 8 guys in the regular rotation.

[JonFromVA]

Tell me who you want to play more. Make the case Merrill, Jones, or Thompson should be out there more. Make the case Emoni won't be a massive negative when he steps on the court.

It's a GM failure that we're sitting here with an open roster spot and a couple of guys in their late 20s who don't deserve to be on the court when a quarter of the active roster is hurt, but that's the reality.

Also, be clear about whose minute loads are too high. Maybe Strus? Maybe 2 too many minutes per game for Mitchell? But with the injuries we've had, those are to be expected. You could argue for quicker white flags in some of our losses, but we haven't had convincing leads in any games to experiment mid-game. Niang and Wade might deserve performance-based cutbacks but there's nobody putting pressure on them to take their spots.

Mobley hasn't gone over 36 minutes in a game yet-- fewer minutes that he played as early as game 1 of the 2021-22 season. He's being handled responsibly, even with Allen's absence.

Hey man, you're shooting the messenger here.

I am not the one who last month, publicly went in front of people with recorders, cameras, and pencils to say i would go 11 deep every night and i trusted my entire roster.

JB Bickerstaff is the one who did/said that.

No one forced him to say that. Since taking over the team during the 2019-20 season JB has consistently played a tight regular season rotation. If he said nothing people woulda assumed he was just going to do that again, there's no reason to lie about it.

If he's asked a question, what's he supposed to say, my boss can't fill out a roster? He might play 10 or 11 guys if everybody was healthy, but they aren't.

What else are we supposed to judge these people by if not their words and actions?

When we see a coach say something and stick with it until it works, he should get all the credit; otherwise we can look at the W-L column but that may be more due to good / bad luck.

JBB has always coached like his job is on the line with each game, but if he can't step back and see the big picture; that should get him fired.

[toooskies]

Hey man, you're shooting the messenger here.

I am not the one who last month, publicly went in front of people with recorders, cameras, and pencils to say i would go 11 deep every night and i trusted my entire roster.

JB Bickerstaff is the one who did/said that.

No one forced him to say that. Since taking over the team during the 2019-20 season JB has consistently played a tight regular season rotation. If he said nothing people woulda assumed he was just going to do that again, there's no reason to lie about it.

If he's asked a question, what's he supposed to say, my boss can't fill out a roster? He might play 10 or 11 guys if everybody was healthy, but they aren't.

What else are we supposed to judge these people by if not their words and actions?

When we see a coach say something and stick with it until it works, he should get all the credit; otherwise we can look at the W-L column but that may be more due to good / bad luck.

JBB has always coached like his job is on the line with each game, but if he can't step back and see the big picture; that should get him fired.

The problem is we aren't the judges of whether JBB deserves to get fired and aren't the people he needs to be honest with.

He should absolutely not be honest with the media about player evaluation-- he should be using the media to give the proper motivations to players. If Emoni needs to hear that he could be in the ROY conversation to keep his attention a level where he'll do what he needs to do to set foot on an NBA court, that's what you say. If you need to say you need to run in transition just to convince your star players to stop walking the ball up the court, you do that. You set aspirational goals in training camp, not reasonable ones.

Being honest, particularly with the media/public, isn't the job.

[JujitsuFlip]

If he's asked a question, what's he supposed to say, my boss can't fill out a roster? He might play 10 or 11 guys if everybody was healthy, but they aren't.

What else are we supposed to judge these people by if not their words and actions?

When we see a coach say something and stick with it until it works, he should get all the credit; otherwise we can look at the W-L column but that may be more due to good / bad luck.

JBB has always coached like his job is on the line with each game, but if he can't step back and see the big picture; that should get him fired.

The problem is we aren't the judges of whether JBB deserves to get fired and aren't the people he needs to be honest with.

He should absolutely not be honest with the media about player evaluation-- he should be using the media to give the proper motivations to players. If Emoni needs to hear that he could be in the ROY conversation to keep his attention a level where he'll do what he needs to do to set foot on an NBA court, that's what you say. If you need to say you need to run in transition just to convince your star players to stop walking the ball up the court, you do that. You set aspirational goals in training camp, not reasonable ones.

Being honest, particularly with the media/public, isn't the job.

That's all moot, the guy just needs to play more than an 8 man rotation in the regular season, it's not aerospace engineering.

Forget who he's being honest or dishonest with, just play a deep rotation for 82 games, it's simple lol

[toooskies]

What else are we supposed to judge these people by if not their words and actions?

When we see a coach say something and stick with it until it works, he should get all the credit; otherwise we can look at the W-L column but that may be more due to good / bad luck.

JBB has always coached like his job is on the line with each game, but if he can't step back and see the big picture; that should get him fired.

The problem is we aren't the judges of whether JBB deserves to get fired and aren't the people he needs to be honest with.

He should absolutely not be honest with the media about player evaluation-- he should be using the media to give the proper motivations to players. If Emoni needs to hear that he could be in the ROY conversation to keep his attention a level where he'll do what he needs to do to set foot on an NBA court, that's what you say. If you need to say you need to run in transition just to convince your star players to stop walking the ball up the court, you do that. You set aspirational goals in training camp, not reasonable ones.

Being honest, particularly with the media/public, isn't the job.

That's all moot, the guy just needs to play more than an 8 man rotation in the regular season, it's not aerospace engineering.

Forget who he's being honest or dishonest with, just play a deep rotation for 82 games, it's simple lol

Ok, then stop calling him a liar if it's moot.

I'm fine playing 8 guys when we have multiple rotation guys sitting out. It's a legitimate reason.

[JujitsuFlip]

The problem is we aren't the judges of whether JBB deserves to get fired and aren't the people he needs to be honest with.

He should absolutely not be honest with the media about player evaluation-- he should be using the media to give the proper motivations to players. If Emoni needs to hear that he could be in the ROY conversation to keep his attention a level where he'll do what he needs to do to set foot on an NBA court, that's what you say. If you need to say you need to run in transition just to convince your star players to stop walking the ball up the court, you do that. You set aspirational goals in training camp, not reasonable ones.

Being honest, particularly with the media/public, isn't the job.

That's all moot, the guy just needs to play more than an 8 man rotation in the regular season, it's not aerospace engineering.

Forget who he's being honest or dishonest with, just play a deep rotation for 82 games, it's simple lol

Ok, then stop calling him a liar if it's moot.

I'm fine playing 8 guys when we have multiple rotation guys sitting out. It's a legitimate reason.

Him being a goofball doesn't eliminate the public lies he told...

Also, no it's not a good excuse, in November. Teams all around the league deal with injuries and still find ways to give 9 or 10 guys 10+ minutes in the rotation.

[toooskies]

That's all moot, the guy just needs to play more than an 8 man rotation in the regular season, it's not aerospace engineering.

Forget who he's being honest or dishonest with, just play a deep rotation for 82 games, it's simple lol

Ok, then stop calling him a liar if it's moot.

I'm fine playing 8 guys when we have multiple rotation guys sitting out. It's a legitimate reason.

Him being a goofball doesn't eliminate the public lies he told...

Also, no it's not a good excuse, in November. Teams all around the league deal with injuries and still find ways to give 9 or 10 guys 10+ minutes in the rotation.

The only teams missing 2+ rotation players a night are teams that are tanking.

[JujitsuFlip]

Ok, then stop calling him a liar if it's moot.

I'm fine playing 8 guys when we have multiple rotation guys sitting out. It's a legitimate reason.

Him being a goofball doesn't eliminate the public lies he told...

Also, no it's not a good excuse, in November. Teams all around the league deal with injuries and still find ways to give 9 or 10 guys 10+ minutes in the rotation.

The only teams missing 2+ rotation players a night are teams that are tanking.

So what's been JB's excuse the past 4 seasons? lmfao

[toooskies]

Him being a goofball doesn't eliminate the public lies he told...

Also, no it's not a good excuse, in November. Teams all around the league deal with injuries and still find ways to give 9 or 10 guys 10+ minutes in the rotation.

The only teams missing 2+ rotation players a night are teams that are tanking.

So what's been JB's excuse the past 4 seasons? lmfao

Tell me the guys who should've played more? In general our bench has been pretty weak for the past 4 seasons and continues to be. Or did you want more Ed Davis minutes? Robin Lopez? Mfiondu Kabengele? Kevin Pangos?

Also, it's kind of your own pet standard since good teams play 8 guys all the time. The Celtics haven't played a game with more than 8 guys getting 10 minutes of floor time since November 4th.

[JujitsuFlip]

The only teams missing 2+ rotation players a night are teams that are tanking.

So what's been JB's excuse the past 4 seasons? lmfao

Tell me the guys who should've played more? In general our bench has been pretty weak for the past 4 seasons and continues to be. Or did you want more Ed Davis minutes? Robin Lopez? Mfiondu Kabengele? Kevin Pangos?

Also, it's kind of your own pet standard since good teams play 8 guys all the time. The Celtics haven't played a game with more than 8 guys getting 10 minutes of floor time since November 4th.

Celtics traded away all their depth to get Jrue, KP, and to a lesser extent White... So, nice cherry pick there, I'll give ya that.

You're gonna die on this hill and that's fine but playing 8 man rotations in the regular season is stupid and not sustainable, there's a well documented 170+ game Cavs sample size to show you how fatigued and injured the Cavs have been but hell yeah brother.

[ijspeelman]

For fun, I'll try to get each team's average players with 10 minutes or more minutes per game this season later so we can put this to bed.

[toooskies]

For fun, I'll try to get each team's average players with 10 minutes or more minutes per game this season later so we can put this to bed.

You can start the count with the Cavs at... 10.

[JujitsuFlip]

For fun, I'll try to get each team's average players with 10 minutes or more minutes per game this season later so we can put this to bed.

That's not really an accurate portrayal. JB will play 8 guys 10+ minutes regardless who is there and then bench them when guys get healthy.

That also won't account for blowouts when scrubs log 10+ minutes.

It literally has to be done on a game by game basis

The most accurate exercise would be take every game from February 2020 until now that JB coached and eliminate garbage minutes. Then check every game how many guys played 10+ minutes or whatever minute # you all determine as being in the rotation (6, 8, 12 or whatever just keep the variable static from start to finish once determined [pre exercise]).

Compiling the data will be the hardest part, after that I'm sure a pivot table + vlookup can be done to determine on average how many guys per season were getting rotation minutes, then take the 5 averages and average them for his career #.

Complete random example below...

2019-20: 8.3
2020-21: 7.9
2021-22: 8.0
2022-23: 7.7
2023-24: 7.5