TT feels disrespected by the Cavs

[ThirdEyeSharp]

According to basketball references 5 man unit stats, our 6 highest point differential lineups featured Thompson. (Sorted by pts column) Also pulled from bball reference, Thompson had the highest offensive rating on the team with 121, with Kyrie and Mozgov having 117 tied for 2nd. Not that o rating is the best stat available, as Thompson often played the 5 with capable shooters at the other 4 spots and that lineup is bound to score a lot.

You seemed to ignore that he is the 3rd best roll man in the entire league? I'm not claiming he's better than Love I'm speaking to his value as a player. Which is pretty undebatable.

Unfortunately the 5 man breakdown did not include an actual offensive rating for each lineup, but if our starting lineup had the best o rating it wouldn't surprise me. But do you think that is a telling stat or the nature of basketball?

The article you posted seemed to be a direct jab to dismiss everything Tristan did well. Now if you ask me if I were an NBA GM, would I pay Thompson 94M over 5 years I'd say no, but if I were the Cavs with no resources available outside of a 10.5M trade exception, I'd sign him to whatever I can to keep my team stacked with the luxury of depth. Tristan Thompson is not replaceable like people make him out to be. He's a high level role player and those have proven to be valuable by the last two NBA champions.

[jbk1234]

According to basketball references 5 man unit stats, our 6 highest point differential lineups featured Thompson. (Sorted by pts column) Also pulled from bball reference, Thompson had the highest offensive rating on the team with 121, with Kyrie and Mozgov having 117 tied for 2nd. Not that o rating is the best stat available, as Thompson often played the 5 with capable shooters at the other 4 spots and that lineup is bound to score a lot.

You seemed to ignore that he is the 3rd best roll man in the entire league? I'm not claiming he's better than Love I'm speaking to his value as a player. Which is pretty undebatable.

Unfortunately the 5 man breakdown did not include an actual offensive rating for each lineup, but if our starting lineup had the best o rating it wouldn't surprise me. But do you think that is a telling stat or the nature of basketball?

The article you posted seemed to be a direct jab to dismiss everything Tristan did well. Now if you ask me if I were an NBA GM, would I pay Thompson 94M over 5 years I'd say no, but if I were the Cavs with no resources available outside of a 10.5M trade exception, I'd sign him to whatever I can to keep my team stacked with the luxury of depth. Tristan Thompson is not replaceable like people make him out to be. He's a high level role player and those have proven to be valuable by the last two NBA champions.

High level role players never look as valuable after they leave those Championship teams. How many times do teams sign high level role players off of Championship teams to big contracts and regret it. Look, I know TT has value as a player. I was willing to bite down hard and accept $16 million per even though it was an overpay. But I'm not losing Mozgov next season after everyone realizes that no team in the NBA can afford to carry 5 max players. I'm not trading Love two years from now because Gilbert doesn't want to pay a $300 million luxury tax/repeater penalty and no team will take TT on his contract.

If TT was willing to bet on himself and take a two year deal from the Cavs, I might even give him $18 million per. But he's not. He's simultaneously claiming that he's worth max money and saying he wants all five years guaranteed. The Cavs will regret giving him that contract. Maybe not this year, and maybe not next year, but at some point they'll wish they had maintained some type of flexibility. For all we know, we could max out TT this summer and LBJ could leave next summer. How effed up would that be?

[ThirdEyeSharp]

But Thompson would have that value here. We're not some team that will be asking him to go outside of his element.

My main point was to say that we won't have the resources to replace Thompson if he walks. We would have to find a late first round guy or 2nd rounder to be as good as him and that won't be easy.

[rjgraca]

The reported offer to TT, as mentioned by others previously, is more than generous for what TT brings to the team. I believe another player with a similar skill set named Hickson thought he was a max player too before the Cavs traded him and he wasn't with Lebron which brought him back to reality salary wise.
IMO, the Cavs could sign and trade TT with Portand for Ed Davis and not miss much for a bench player at half the cost. I can't see the Raptors giving TT the max next year which would mean they couldn't probably resign Derozon and Ross. The 76ers already have Noel who is better than TT at fraction of the cost. IMO, I can't see any team paying the max for a player like TT who is good, but not a game changer. The Cavs have 10.5 million exemption that could fill most of the void of losing TT who is over playing his hand with his agent.

[OsuCavsfan103]

TT in one off-season has managed to really give himself a not so great name among Cavs fans overall. He went from lovable asset to greedy, delusional fool.

I would rather see him take the QO and walk next year than give in to his ridiculous demands. I applaud the front office so far for not budging. LeBron should have no role in this decision I don't care if their friends or not. Letting LeBron dictate every little thing in his first stint killed us in the first place.

[jbk1234]

But Thompson would have that value here. We're not some team that will be asking him to go outside of his element.

My main point was to say that we won't have the resources to replace Thompson if he walks. We would have to find a late first round guy or 2nd rounder to be as good as him and that won't be easy.

I think you can replace 80% of what TT gives you for 30% of the money he's asking for.

[ThirdEyeSharp]

But Thompson would have that value here. We're not some team that will be asking him to go outside of his element.

My main point was to say that we won't have the resources to replace Thompson if he walks. We would have to find a late first round guy or 2nd rounder to be as good as him and that won't be easy.

I think you can replace 80% of what TT gives you for 30% of the money he's asking for.

Can you do it with an MLE or minimum salary which is what we will have at our disposal?

[jbk1234]

But Thompson would have that value here. We're not some team that will be asking him to go outside of his element.

My main point was to say that we won't have the resources to replace Thompson if he walks. We would have to find a late first round guy or 2nd rounder to be as good as him and that won't be easy.

I think you can replace 80% of what TT gives you for 30% of the money he's asking for.

Can you do it with an MLE or minimum salary which is what we will have at our disposal?

You might be able to do it with the Haywood TPE and a future first. Ed Davis for example.

[ThirdEyeSharp]

I want to just express that TT is incredibly undervalued. Ed Davis is not as good as Tristan. Tristan is legitimately one of the best roll men in the NBA, and one of the most versatile defending 4s there is, and because he doesn't block shots he doesn't get credit.

[toooskies]

Tristan seems to be one of the best roll men in the NBA because he plays with Lebron and Kyrie, both of whom demand defenders' attention a lot more than the average NBA player. If he were a great roll man, he'd get passes even when he's not wide open on the roll, and he'd have a usage rate above 12%. He's probably a good roll man, and his circumstances inflate his statistics.

He's a versatile 4, but he's not above-average when guarding 5s and 3s (or 2s or 1s), which means his versatility doesn't give you any advantage on the court. It just helps when guys get hurt. And for $15+ million per season, you want to see more than "fills the role of 2 or 3 average backups."

[jbk1234]

I want to just express that TT is incredibly undervalued. Ed Davis is not as good as Tristan. Tristan is legitimately one of the best roll men in the NBA, and one of the most versatile defending 4s there is, and because he doesn't block shots he doesn't get credit.

I think $80 million fairly compensates a player who is a good defensive PNR man. He's not being incredibly undervalued. He's not being undervalued at all. The Cavs offered him more than he could get this summer. He wants what he thinks he might get next summer. But only the best players in the game get what they might get under some best-case-scenario future circumstances. Everyone else is offered the best guaranteed money they can get right now. He doesn't have to accept it. He can take his chances and play on the Q.O. But I don't want to hear any crying about his contract or PT during the season.

[ThirdEyeSharp]

It's not the money figure, I'm talking about by fans. Thinking that he's easily replaceable, when in reality he is one of the best pick and roll bigs on both sides of the ball. Defense and offense.

I just don't want the team to lose its depth and have every year be this test of attrition where we can't have guys to step up

[rjgraca]

I hope the Cavs don't cave and give TT anything close to the Max---- even with Lebron posting on social media trying to apply pressure to the Cavs to give TT the max for a very average player. This would hand cuff the Cavs cap wise making it almost impossible to resign a player like Mozgov who was the real spark defensively last season that helped propel the Cavs to one of the best 2nd half records last season. Lebron (1 year contract) could easily walk away after getting TT a max through blackmail and take no responsibility for creating a cap mess for the Cavs.

Tristan Thompson's contract demands are rather ridiculous


So while Thompson is perfectly justified to chase that dough, let us all acknowledge that his contract demands are rather ridiculous.

Thompson averaged eight points and eight rebounds for the Cavaliers last season. He will be backing up Kevin Love and Timofey Mozgov this season, probably averaging no more than 25 minutes per game. (While he averaged about 27 minutes per game last season, he played just 23 per game after the All-Star break. Mozgov arrived in January.) Thompson is a good offensive rebounder; Love happens to be one of the best in the league. Thompson is a versatile defender capable of switching the pick-and-roll. That's a nice skill. It's not an $18.8 million per year skill. If we're being honest, it's not a $16 million skill either, even in this inflated salary environment.

http://www.sbnation.com/2015/10/2/9438945/tristan-thompson-contract-cavaliers-max-silly

How a perfectly average player is holding the Cavaliers hostage


Thompson’s protracted free agency has been one of the biggest stories of this summer — an odd twist, considering he’s a largely unremarkable player. Thompson does have positives: He’s durable (having missed just one game through four seasons), and he’s a decent defender and rebounder.


But in a league where shooting and spacing are increasingly important, Thompson is a throwback to the days when power forwards were expected to be more like Charles Oakley than Dirk Nowitzki. He has virtually no shooting range — 76 percent of his attempts last season came within five feet of the basket, and he didn’t attempt a single 3-pointer. The most notable thing about Thompson’s shooting ability is that he switched shooting hands two years ago, from left to right.
He isn’t even a starter. Yes, Thompson was terrific during last season’s playoffs, a key component in Cleveland’s run to the NBA Finals. But that came after Kevin Love injured his left shoulder in the Cavaliers’ first-round sweep of the Celtics. Now that Love is back in the fold after agreeing to a five-year max contract, Thompson will revert to a bench player. Thompson averaged around 27 minutes in that role last season.

All of that makes it hard to justify the Thompson camp’s insistent stance.

http://nypost.com/2015/10/02/how-a-perfectly-average-player-is-holding-the-cavaliers-hostage/

The Viability of Tristan Thompson in Portland

His offensive scoring skill set leaves much to be desired. 67 percent of his shots have come within three feet of the hoop, 25 percent from three to ten feet. Yet only 26 percent of his shots were dunks, leaving him with little more than a close range bunny hook. Anything further than eight feet is outside of his range. His style is similar to the back down and attack style of LaMarcus Aldridge, but without the ability to step back and shoot if the opponent forces him out.

Overall, while his win shares have grown each year, topping out at 6.8 last season, his defensive win shares ranked him No. 24 among power forwards and No. 100 overall over the last three seasons. The majority of his win shares come from his dominant offensive rebounding, but he brings little else to the table. Essentially, the Blazers would be paying premium market value for a player with a few solid strengths, but also some very visible weaknesses. This would be an example of paying for potential rather than average output. According to Zach Lowe of Grantland, new Trail Blazer Ed Davis is a favorable comparison to Thompson among NBA scouts, meaning Portland has a comparable player already.

http://www.blazersedge.com/2015/10/3/9444563/portland-trail-blazers-tristan-thompson-restricted-free-agent

Comparing the Cost & Production of Ed Davis and Tristan Thompson

So, who would you rather have: Ed Davis for $20 million or Tristan Thompson for $40+ million?

On the surface, the answer may seem obvious - Thompson is a rising potential star while Davis was practically run out of Memphis and played for a minimum contract last season. The NBA is a star-based league so teams, especially contenders, should pay the players who have star potential.

The problem with that logic is that Davis and Thompson are remarkably similar on the court, despite the differences in how they're perceived and paid. Both players excel at scoring around the rim and at rebounding, but cannot hit a jump shot. They both struggle as primary "backstops" on defense, but use their athleticism and mobility to bother opposing players in open space.

http://www.blazersedge.com/2015/9/27/9403951/portland-trail-blazers-ed-davis-tristan-thompson-comparison

[johnnyballgame]

It's not the money figure, I'm talking about by fans. Thinking that he's easily replaceable, when in reality he is one of the best pick and roll bigs on both sides of the ball. Defense and offense.

I just don't want the team to lose its depth and have every year be this test of attrition where we can't have guys to step up

Don't give up the fight brother! You make some very reasonable and valid points in the thread.
The Cavs have no picks, no salary cap to spend with or without Thompson. To use the TPE already just to replace him is foolish. ALL Tristan costs is Dan Gilbert's cash. Personally, I have no problems spending Gilbert's cash. Quite frankly, it's the asset I prefer to use. Draft picks and cap space are much harder to come by (and we don't have any now to begin with!)

I don't care if Thompson rides the pine all year. I'd still much rather have him on my teams bench than not. Especially when one of the guys in front of him has been hurt multiple times and even as recently as last season and the other has pretty much NEVER been a starter and just had a knee scoped. Stuff happens. We're trying to win a title here not build a young team that will stay together for long enough to grow into something. Let's be prepared as possible. Would it be a problem if we had too much talent?

What if we trade our TPE for some Ed Davis and Shump has a set back in January? or Kyrie proves injury prone with another injury? What do we have then? NOTHING. That's just about our only asset.

The fact is just about every team in the league is going to have an extra 20 million next year. There's really not going to be any more free agents than usual - at least not enough for every team to spend the amount they are contractually obligated to spend on deals people think are fair deals. Enes Kanter got a max offer and deal this year... when the cap is still tight. That's two teams, offering a guy taken one spot apart from Thompson, with career stats unbelievably similar to Thompsons. Different players yes, but I'm not going to argue strengths and weaknesses as neither is an allstar - size gets paid. It's absolutely getting paid next offseason. Thompson WOULD get near max or max.
Also though, for the same reasons, wouldn't you thing it's going to be MUCH, MUCH EASIER to unload a bad contract or two over the next couple of seasons? It's not going to be just Philly as the only team taking on salary.

To even suggest a possibility that Lebron might leave and we'd be stuck with TT on a max isn't fair. If Lebron leaves we're probably going back to nothing anyway. Lebron would much more likely leave if we don't sign TT as he's done that before. When something has happened before that's basis for it actually happening again. Otherwise its just speculation.

If Gilbert wants a championship it's going to cost him. He knew this when he flew to Florida and pretty much groveled and begged Lebron to come back here. I don't care what it costs Gilbert in penalties. He's still going to be making money.

[Brovva Blaqq]

Just pay everybody the max. It's only Gilbert's money and he has plenty. No need to worry if you'll be stuck in salary cap hell like the knicks were for almost half a decade.

[jbk1234]

Just pay everybody the max. It's only Gilbert's money and he has plenty. No need to worry if you'll be stuck in salary cap hell like the knicks were for almost half a decade.

Or the Nets. Seriously though - when has maxing out five or six players ever worked out for a team?

[toooskies]

the problem with spending all the owner's money is that eventually the owner gets tired of not having all the money he spent. Happens pretty quickly too.

Spending also takes away from future cap flexibility in meaningful ways.

TT has no leverage until the Cavs' other big men become unavailable for the playoffs.

[jayu70]

Before LBJ returned did any of you Cavs fans think he was worth $80 million dollars?

[rjgraca]

Before LBJ returned did any of you Cavs fans think he was worth $80 million dollars?

No, before LBJ's return or currently. It's an extreme LBJ tax to pay TT $80 million Dollars for 5 years and absurd to consider the max for TT. As it's been stated before, it's on LBJ if he leaves due to TT not getting an absurd max (or near max) contract from the Cavs.

Is Tristan Thompson a necessity for the Cavaliers, or a luxury?

The Cavs already had Kyrie Irving when they brought James back and they quickly made a trade for All-NBA power forward Kevin Love. In-season, they brought in Timofey Mozgov to stabilize the offense along with J.R. Smith and Iman Shumpert to fill out the wings. After that, the Cavs took off and started realizing their championship potential with consistent and at times incredible play. It was during the month of February when you really saw the insane potential of this team, and it didn't have as much to do with Tristan Thompson -- who remains unsigned -- as it seems we're all being led to believe.

The narrative has become that Thompson was some kind of savior in the playoffs, and it was that -- along with sharing the same agent as LeBron -- that led most to believe he was getting what he wanted this offseason. But listen, Mozgov is an unrestricted free agent in 2016 as well, and if you look at those same production scales, he could well end up being more important to the Cavs getting that first title than Thompson.


http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/25296203/is-tristan-thompson-a-necessity-for-the-cavaliers-or-a-luxury

[jbk1234]

Before LBJ returned did any of you Cavs fans think he was worth $80 million dollars?

Most of us don't think he's worth the $80 million after LBJ returned.