2023 Playoffs Round 1: Cavs (4) / Knicks (5)

[JujitsuFlip]

My NBATV stream is buffering. I think it’s trying to save me

Stream I'm watching was great in the 1st half, not so much in the 2nd half.

[KuruptedCav]

17-3 offensive rebound differential tonight.

If I could ask one question of this team; it would be “Jarrett Allen/Coach B, when your center runs back on offense, who is he expecting to retrieve the rebound for that break?”

I get having Okoro do it when he’s playing on the wing with Allen/Mobley, but come on…


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[cavs4872]

What do we take from this game and series regarding Jarrett Allen? Dude seems disinterested and disengaged: from All-Star to backup material. It's like a miracle to see him box out and grab one defensive rebound. I really don't think it's just Robinson playing out of his mind, but Allen in general is just concerning.

I also don't think it's him being gassed at this point either cause Robinson dominates him at the beginning of games too.

[ijspeelman]

Disappointing. Embarrassing.

Hopefully a wake up call for the entire Cavs organization. I don’t know everything that needs changed, but there’s a lot and I hope there is no complacency in the front office or in the locker room.

We are a young team and have a lot to grow into, but improvement isn’t guaranteed.

To comment on the Knicks, they feel completely legit. They were better than Cavs this series because they were better than the Cavs. If Heat make it out against the Bucks, I expect to see the Knicks in the conference finals.

[ijspeelman]

What do we take from this game and series regarding Jarrett Allen? Dude seems disinterested and disengaged: from All-Star to backup material. It's like a miracle to see him box out and grab one defensive rebound. I really don't think it's just Robinson playing out of his mind, but Allen in general is just concerning.

I also don't think it's him being gassed at this point either cause Robinson dominates him at the beginning of games too.

Jarrett Allen did not look like Jarrett Allen this series. I don’t know if the Knicks specifically game planned him and nullified his strengths or something was just… off.

[jbk1234]

I'll say this, Garland and Mobley should not be the only guys fouling out in a series that was this physical.

[jbk1234]

What do we take from this game and series regarding Jarrett Allen? Dude seems disinterested and disengaged: from All-Star to backup material. It's like a miracle to see him box out and grab one defensive rebound. I really don't think it's just Robinson playing out of his mind, but Allen in general is just concerning.

I also don't think it's him being gassed at this point either cause Robinson dominates him at the beginning of games too.

He seemed exhausted. Robinson outplayed him, but tonight was the first night Thibs made him stay out there, and he actually seemed tired as well. Imagine if we had Hartenstein and the roles were reversed. That said, Allen needs to learn to play angry.

[TheLand13]

What do we take from this game and series regarding Jarrett Allen? Dude seems disinterested and disengaged: from All-Star to backup material. It's like a miracle to see him box out and grab one defensive rebound. I really don't think it's just Robinson playing out of his mind, but Allen in general is just concerning.

I also don't think it's him being gassed at this point either cause Robinson dominates him at the beginning of games too.

We really need to stop making posts like this and not even attempt to use our brains. Allen has played significantly more minutes than the guys who are much bigger than him and cover less ground on offense. He has very little support to work with due to a lack of bigs to back him up and we’re actually giving him **** for not being able to keep up?

This is not on our bigs not being good enough. It has nothing to do with that. Our roster was not built to handle a team like the Knicks and it shows. I can’t for the life of me figure out why people thought we would be winning in six. This was a terrible matchup for us all around.

[afarmenian]

What do we take from this game and series regarding Jarrett Allen? Dude seems disinterested and disengaged: from All-Star to backup material. It's like a miracle to see him box out and grab one defensive rebound. I really don't think it's just Robinson playing out of his mind, but Allen in general is just concerning.

I also don't think it's him being gassed at this point either cause Robinson dominates him at the beginning of games too.

We really need to stop making posts like this and not even attempt to use our brains. Allen has played significantly more minutes than the guys who are much bigger than him and cover less ground on offense. He has very little support to work with due to a lack of bigs to back him up and we’re actually giving him **** for not being able to keep up?

This is not on our bigs not being good enough. It has nothing to do with that. Our roster was not built to handle a team like the Knicks and it shows. I can’t for the life of me figure out why people thought we would be winning in six. This was a terrible matchup for us all around.

I will give you that, i mean i have been saying since mid season the people crying about a wing were totally oblivious to how we needed a back big just as much heck if not even more. What a abject failure for this FO to go in on Robin Lopez as the only backup true big man on the team.

But come on Allen got DOMINATED. From start to finish most games, it wasnt even close, he was exposed and he doesnt seem like the type to care is the problem that i see.

now what do you with Allen as his value is probably plummeted

[cavs4872]

What do we take from this game and series regarding Jarrett Allen? Dude seems disinterested and disengaged: from All-Star to backup material. It's like a miracle to see him box out and grab one defensive rebound. I really don't think it's just Robinson playing out of his mind, but Allen in general is just concerning.

I also don't think it's him being gassed at this point either cause Robinson dominates him at the beginning of games too.

We really need to stop making posts like this and not even attempt to use our brains. Allen has played significantly more minutes than the guys who are much bigger than him and cover less ground on offense. He has very little support to work with due to a lack of bigs to back him up and we’re actually giving him **** for not being able to keep up?

This is not on our bigs not being good enough. It has nothing to do with that. Our roster was not built to handle a team like the Knicks and it shows. I can’t for the life of me figure out why people thought we would be winning in six. This was a terrible matchup for us all around.

I would tend to agree with this but he offers hardly anything in the way of physicality. He just must not be that guy.

[jbk1234]

We scored 95 points, in a close out game, at home, with our bench doing okay, and a starting backcourt of Garland/Mitchell.

[JujitsuFlip]

What do we take from this game and series regarding Jarrett Allen? Dude seems disinterested and disengaged: from All-Star to backup material. It's like a miracle to see him box out and grab one defensive rebound. I really don't think it's just Robinson playing out of his mind, but Allen in general is just concerning.

I also don't think it's him being gassed at this point either cause Robinson dominates him at the beginning of games too.

He seemed exhausted. Robinson outplayed him, but tonight was the first night Thibs made him stay out there, and he actually seemed tired as well. Imagine if we had Hartenstein and the roles were reversed. That said, Allen needs to learn to play angry.

Cavs are a bunch of nice guys, they don't know how to turn it off.

[jasonxxx102]

We scored 95 points, in a close out game, at home, with our bench doing okay, and a starting backcourt of Garland/Mitchell.

And Okoro had 10.

Every single person in that organization should be ashamed of this performance. Top to bottom embarrassing

[TheLand13]

What do we take from this game and series regarding Jarrett Allen? Dude seems disinterested and disengaged: from All-Star to backup material. It's like a miracle to see him box out and grab one defensive rebound. I really don't think it's just Robinson playing out of his mind, but Allen in general is just concerning.

I also don't think it's him being gassed at this point either cause Robinson dominates him at the beginning of games too.

We really need to stop making posts like this and not even attempt to use our brains. Allen has played significantly more minutes than the guys who are much bigger than him and cover less ground on offense. He has very little support to work with due to a lack of bigs to back him up and we’re actually giving him **** for not being able to keep up?

This is not on our bigs not being good enough. It has nothing to do with that. Our roster was not built to handle a team like the Knicks and it shows. I can’t for the life of me figure out why people thought we would be winning in six. This was a terrible matchup for us all around.

I will give you that, i mean i have been saying since mid season the people crying about a wing were totally oblivious to how we needed a back big just as much heck if not even more. What a abject failure for this FO to go in on Robin Lopez as the only backup true big man on the team.

But come on Allen got DOMINATED. From start to finish most games, it wasnt even close, he was exposed and he doesnt seem like the type to care is the problem that i see.

now what do you with Allen as his value is probably plummeted

I’m not worried about Allen. He will be fine. Mitchell’s the one we need to be raging on more than anything else.

[cavs4872]

I will give you that, i mean i have been saying since mid season the people crying about a wing were totally oblivious to how we needed a back big just as much heck if not even more. What a abject failure for this FO to go in on Robin Lopez as the only backup true big man on the team.

But come on Allen got DOMINATED. From start to finish most games, it wasnt even close, he was exposed and he doesnt seem like the type to care is the problem that i see.

now what do you with Allen as his value is probably plummeted

Yeah, it's sort of bizarre how fixated people are on this 3&D wing when we have nothing in the way of paint depth. Like at least we had a rotating door of Okoro, LeVert, Osman, Stevens and Green. I haven't been paying a ton of attention to Miami/Milwaukee, but see the Heat can close them out tonight with Love as their starting PF.

[JujitsuFlip]

Here is the core 4 after their first playoff series.

Mitchell 23.2 PPG 7.2 APG 5 RPG (43.3% FG 28.9% 3FG 72.2% FT) 3.8 TO 2 SPG - 41.4 MPG

Garland 20.6 PPG 5 APG 1.8 RPG (43.8% FG 38.7% 3FG 84% FT) 3.6 TO 1.6 SPG - 37.6 MPG

Mobley 9.8 PPG 2 APG 10 RPG (45.8% FG 0-1 from 3, 62.5% FT) 2.4 TO 1.2 BPG - 37.6 MPG

Allen 9.4 PPG 2.4 APG 7.4 RPG (61.1% FG 50% FT) 1 BPG - 38.2 MPG

[jbk1234]

We really need to stop making posts like this and not even attempt to use our brains. Allen has played significantly more minutes than the guys who are much bigger than him and cover less ground on offense. He has very little support to work with due to a lack of bigs to back him up and we’re actually giving him **** for not being able to keep up?

This is not on our bigs not being good enough. It has nothing to do with that. Our roster was not built to handle a team like the Knicks and it shows. I can’t for the life of me figure out why people thought we would be winning in six. This was a terrible matchup for us all around.

I will give you that, i mean i have been saying since mid season the people crying about a wing were totally oblivious to how we needed a back big just as much heck if not even more. What a abject failure for this FO to go in on Robin Lopez as the only backup true big man on the team.

But come on Allen got DOMINATED. From start to finish most games, it wasnt even close, he was exposed and he doesnt seem like the type to care is the problem that i see.

now what do you with Allen as his value is probably plummeted

I’m not worried about Allen. He will be fine. Mitchell’s the one we need to be raging on more than anything else.

Not sure we should be raging on anyone, but we do need to ask hard questions, make sure our priors aren't skewing our perspective, and then be honest with ourselves about how our favorite players did.

After that, we need examine what's fixable with our FA money and making no other changes.

[JujitsuFlip]

I will give you that, i mean i have been saying since mid season the people crying about a wing were totally oblivious to how we needed a back big just as much heck if not even more. What a abject failure for this FO to go in on Robin Lopez as the only backup true big man on the team.

But come on Allen got DOMINATED. From start to finish most games, it wasnt even close, he was exposed and he doesnt seem like the type to care is the problem that i see.

now what do you with Allen as his value is probably plummeted

Yeah, it's sort of bizarre how fixated people are on this 3&D wing when we have nothing in the way of paint depth. Like at least we had a rotating door of Okoro, LeVert, Osman, Stevens and Green. I haven't been paying a ton of attention to Miami/Milwaukee, but see the Heat can close them out tonight with Love as their starting PF.

Those guys are turds.

Cavs need a real starting SF and I'd say a guy who can back-up and potentially play next to said SF too. Cavs need 2 way players and currently lack that.

A back-up big is also important but hopefully Wade can get his head outta his rear end and he would help some in that area.

Cavs have the MLE, BAE, TPE, and pick #49 to upgrade the roster this summer. Most of the roster for next season is mostly set.

JB either needs to get a real offense or step down as HC.

[jbk1234]

Here is the core 4 after their first playoff series.

Mitchell 23.2 PPG 7.2 APG 5 RPG (43.3% FG 28.9% 3FG 72.2% FT) 3.8 TO 2 SPG - 41.4 MPG

Garland 20.6 PPG 5 APG 1.8 RPG (43.8% FG 38.7% 3FG 84% FT) 3.6 TO 1.6 SPG - 37.6 MPG

Mobley 9.8 PPG 2 APG 10 RPG (45.8% FG 0-1 from 3, 62.5% FT) 2.4 TO 1.2 BPG - 37.6 MPG

Allen 9.4 PPG 2.4 APG 7.4 RPG (61.1% FG 50% FT) 1 BPG - 38.2 MPG

Legitimately just curious, what do their turnovers look like?

[TheLand13]

I will give you that, i mean i have been saying since mid season the people crying about a wing were totally oblivious to how we needed a back big just as much heck if not even more. What a abject failure for this FO to go in on Robin Lopez as the only backup true big man on the team.

But come on Allen got DOMINATED. From start to finish most games, it wasnt even close, he was exposed and he doesnt seem like the type to care is the problem that i see.

now what do you with Allen as his value is probably plummeted

I’m not worried about Allen. He will be fine. Mitchell’s the one we need to be raging on more than anything else.

Not sure we should be raging on anyone, but we do need to ask hard questions, make sure our priors aren't skewing our perspective, and then be honest with ourselves about how our favorite players did.

After that, we need examine what's fixable with our FA money and making no other changes.

I am absolutely going to rage on Mitchell. We gave up a ton of assets to bring in a playoff veteran who was known for stepping up during the postseason. This was arguably Mitchell's worst postseason series and it wasn't even because of New York's defense.

I can give a pass to Garland who in all honesty didn't even play all that bad for his first postseason when you consider how young he is. I can give a pass to Mobley who played below standards due to the physical nature of the Knicks bigs and having to play way too many minutes. I can give a pass to Allen for the same reason.

There is no excuse for Mitchell to play as poorly as he did. I have no issues with giving Mitchell another season. But if we get a rinse and repeat next season, it's time to attempt to trade him for better assets. We've seen so many teams successfully pull it off, I'm confident that we can be legitimate title contenders with a Garland/Mobley/Allen trio. We just need to get better pieces surrounding them.

And also, this NEEDS to be said. Isaac Okoro actually played really well in this series. I know people like to pretend that him getting in foul trouble early in game 2 is a key reason for us winning, but in reality, Garland went off and LeVert just so happened to have a great game too. Okoro really stepped up after losing his starting spot and did not show any fear against this Knicks team. Okoro needs to remain on this team and I hope he can really develop a consistent three pointer that isn't at the corner because if he does, that will be very valuable to our team as a whole.

I absolutely agree that we're focusing way too much on the 3/D Wing aspect of our team. While it's definitely a spot we need to improve in, this series really demonstrated why our lack of back up bigs are our main problem. It's literally the reason we lost this series.

What do we take from this game and series regarding Jarrett Allen? Dude seems disinterested and disengaged: from All-Star to backup material. It's like a miracle to see him box out and grab one defensive rebound. I really don't think it's just Robinson playing out of his mind, but Allen in general is just concerning.

I also don't think it's him being gassed at this point either cause Robinson dominates him at the beginning of games too.

We really need to stop making posts like this and not even attempt to use our brains. Allen has played significantly more minutes than the guys who are much bigger than him and cover less ground on offense. He has very little support to work with due to a lack of bigs to back him up and we’re actually giving him **** for not being able to keep up?

This is not on our bigs not being good enough. It has nothing to do with that. Our roster was not built to handle a team like the Knicks and it shows. I can’t for the life of me figure out why people thought we would be winning in six. This was a terrible matchup for us all around.

I would tend to agree with this but he offers hardly anything in the way of physicality. He just must not be that guy.

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that Jarrett Allen of all people was supposed to be THAT GUY. I'm well aware that we consider him to be part of our big four but at the end of the day that's all he is. Part of our big four. He's not the best player on our team at all and Evan Mobley in just his second season has already surpassed him as a player (and keep in mind, Allen was an all star last season). It's very clear that Jarrett Allen is not meant to be the cornerstone of our franchise and I don't think we ever expected him to be. He's one of our defensive anchors who is also capable of being a very dynamic big with a high IQ and great passing abilities.

Tonight was the first time that Mitchell Robinson played more than 30 minutes in this series. And the signs of fatigue were already setting in at the beginning of the fourth. Guess what? Jarrett Allen was having that issue all series long while having to deal with a guy with more muscle and athleticism than him, while also playing more minutes AND covering more ground due to how Cleveland's defense is structured. So why are we holding that against Allen when Cleveland was the one who set him up for failure in the first place by not putting him in a position to succeed? I'm not saying there aren't things Allen could have done better. What I will say however is that we are using this series to unfairly judge Allen's talent and abilities to help us win when in reality, very questionable decisions by the front office are what ultimately led to this moment.

Cleveland had the best ranked defense this season. Allen is a big reason for that. It stands within reason that right now, we should not consider trading Allen. We tend to forgot the positive contributions that he brings because we're focusing on the negative contributions we saw here. I can remember a time when people were saying that Kevin Love shouldn't even be playing anymore. And guess what? I was one of those people and I supported the decision to let him go. Well, now it's backfired on us and he's playing pretty well with Miami right now. We really could have used him in this series. Hell, I'll go as far as to say that if we still had Love, the series wouldn't be over right now.

I guess my point is, I think it would be best for us as fans to not overreact to this series. New York is far better than their record suggests and by no means is this an upset, despite what people might think. There's a reason they're 3-1 against us this season. Cleveland will move forward, and right now, getting rid of any of our big four should be the last thing on their minds.