2023 Playoffs Round 1: Cavs (4) / Knicks (5)

[jbk1234]

I’m not worried about Allen. He will be fine. Mitchell’s the one we need to be raging on more than anything else.

Not sure we should be raging on anyone, but we do need to ask hard questions, make sure our priors aren't skewing our perspective, and then be honest with ourselves about how our favorite players did.

After that, we need examine what's fixable with our FA money and making no other changes.

I am absolutely going to rage on Mitchell. We gave up a ton of assets to bring in a playoff veteran who was known for stepping up during the postseason. This was arguably Mitchell's worst postseason series and it wasn't even because of New York's defense.

I can give a pass to Garland who in all honesty didn't even play all that bad for his first postseason when you consider how young he is. I can give a pass to Mobley who played below standards due to the physical nature of the Knicks bigs and having to play way too many minutes. I can give a pass to Allen for the same reason.

There is no excuse for Mitchell to play as poorly as he did. I have no issues with giving Mitchell another season. But if we get a rinse and repeat next season, it's time to attempt to trade him for better assets. We've seen so many teams successfully pull it off, I'm confident that we can be legitimate title contenders with a Garland/Mobley/Allen trio. We just need to get better pieces surrounding them.

And also, this NEEDS to be said. Isaac Okoro actually played really well in this series. I know people like to pretend that him getting in foul trouble early in game 2 is a key reason for us winning, but in reality, Garland went off and LeVert just so happened to have a great game too. Okoro really stepped up after losing his starting spot and did not show any fear against this Knicks team. Okoro needs to remain on this team and I hope he can really develop a consistent three pointer that isn't at the corner because if he does, that will be very valuable to our team as a whole.

I absolutely agree that we're focusing way too much on the 3/D Wing aspect of our team. While it's definitely a spot we need to improve in, this series really demonstrated why our lack of back up bigs are our main problem. It's literally the reason we lost this series.

So a couple of observations, our spacing sucks (very crowded paint), this was Mitchell's first series in an Eastern Conference playoffs (where they really let you D up), the Knicks were an awful matchup, and he hasn't adjusted to balanced team yet.

Also, and I'm not sure how Mitchell will adjust to a structured offense, but we haven't had one all season, Thibs saw that and drove a Mack Truck into it.

[TheLand13]

What do we take from this game and series regarding Jarrett Allen? Dude seems disinterested and disengaged: from All-Star to backup material. It's like a miracle to see him box out and grab one defensive rebound. I really don't think it's just Robinson playing out of his mind, but Allen in general is just concerning.

I also don't think it's him being gassed at this point either cause Robinson dominates him at the beginning of games too.

We really need to stop making posts like this and not even attempt to use our brains. Allen has played significantly more minutes than the guys who are much bigger than him and cover less ground on offense. He has very little support to work with due to a lack of bigs to back him up and we’re actually giving him **** for not being able to keep up?

This is not on our bigs not being good enough. It has nothing to do with that. Our roster was not built to handle a team like the Knicks and it shows. I can’t for the life of me figure out why people thought we would be winning in six. This was a terrible matchup for us all around.

I will give you that, i mean i have been saying since mid season the people crying about a wing were totally oblivious to how we needed a back big just as much heck if not even more. What a abject failure for this FO to go in on Robin Lopez as the only backup true big man on the team.

But come on Allen got DOMINATED. From start to finish most games, it wasnt even close, he was exposed and he doesnt seem like the type to care is the problem that i see.

now what do you with Allen as his value is probably plummeted

In all fairness, when this season first started, Kevin Love was still on the team expecting to be our backup big. Doing a Mobley/Allen/Love rotation last season did wonders and teams weren't able to exploit it well enough for it to matter. The problem is that Kevin Love had the unfortunate hand injury that killed his ability to produce for us offensively and Bickerstaff took him out of the rotation.

I've stated before that he was unplayable, but I'm starting to think with context that I was horribly wrong on my assessment. Love really just needed time to recover from the thumb injury and find his shot again. We were going to make the playoffs regardless of whether or not he did at an ample time, and in the end, getting the fourth seed ended up not even mattering (obviously). I hate to admit it, but getting rid of Love was a mistake. But this one is on Bickerstaff for taking him out of the rotation in the first place just for a guy who ended up only playing one game in this series for about seven minutes.

[JujitsuFlip]

Here is the core 4 after their first playoff series.

Mitchell 23.2 PPG 7.2 APG 5 RPG (43.3% FG 28.9% 3FG 72.2% FT) 3.8 TO 2 SPG - 41.4 MPG

Garland 20.6 PPG 5 APG 1.8 RPG (43.8% FG 38.7% 3FG 84% FT) 3.6 TO 1.6 SPG - 37.6 MPG

Mobley 9.8 PPG 2 APG 10 RPG (45.8% FG 0-1 from 3, 62.5% FT) 2.4 TO 1.2 BPG - 37.6 MPG

Allen 9.4 PPG 2.4 APG 7.4 RPG (61.1% FG 50% FT) 1 BPG - 38.2 MPG

Legitimately just curious, what do their turnovers look like?

Mitchell 3.8, Garland 3.6, Mobley 2.4, and Allen 0.6

[TheBallsDeeper]

The narrative around Mitchell being a great playoff performer are way off. He has shot his team out of the playoffs pretty much every year.

His stats are massively overrated after he and Murray matched up and played no defense on each other a few years ago and it seems to be all everyone remembers (A series where he was eliminated)

He was overhyped early in his career because the US media were desperate to find the next great American superstar with a flood of international stars emerging. Now he has shown that he is not that guy, the media and fans won't admit the truth. The Emperor's got no clothes.

Mitchell needs to get back to what he was in college - hustle defender and offensive roll-payer. He can be a spot-up shooter and slasher, but he is pretty low IQ - he can't run the point and takes horrible contested shots all game. He can be a homeless man's D-Wade, or a more athletic Delly with lower BBIQ, but right now he thinks he is a superstar and he will kill his team in the Playoffs every time unless he can accept his limitations.

[jasonxxx102]

The narrative around Mitchell being a great playoff performer are way off. He has shot his team out of the playoffs pretty much every year.

His stats are massively overrated after he and Murray matched up and played no defense on each other a few years ago and it seems to be all everyone remembers (A series where he was eliminated)

He was overhyped early in his career because the US media were desperate to find the next great American superstar with a flood of international stars emerging. Now he has shown that he is not that guy, the media and fans won't admit the truth. The Emperor's got no clothes.

Mitchell needs to get back to what he was in college - hustle defender and offensive roll-payer. He can be a spot-up shooter and slasher, but he is pretty low IQ - he can't run the point and takes horrible contested shots all game. He can be a homeless man's D-Wade, or a more athletic Delly with lower BBIQ, but right now he thinks he is a superstar and he will kill his team in the Playoffs every time unless he can accept his limitations.

You can not like Mitchell, think he’s a chucker, be mad at this series… whatever but this is the most ridiculous post I’ve ever read on RGM and I’m not even being hyperbolic.

A more athletic Delly with lower BBIQ? Wtf?

[KuruptedCav]

I’m not worried about Allen. He will be fine. Mitchell’s the one we need to be raging on more than anything else.

Not sure we should be raging on anyone, but we do need to ask hard questions, make sure our priors aren't skewing our perspective, and then be honest with ourselves about how our favorite players did.

After that, we need examine what's fixable with our FA money and making no other changes.

I am absolutely going to rage on Mitchell. We gave up a ton of assets to bring in a playoff veteran who was known for stepping up during the postseason. This was arguably Mitchell's worst postseason series and it wasn't even because of New York's defense.

I can give a pass to Garland who in all honesty didn't even play all that bad for his first postseason when you consider how young he is. I can give a pass to Mobley who played below standards due to the physical nature of the Knicks bigs and having to play way too many minutes. I can give a pass to Allen for the same reason.

There is no excuse for Mitchell to play as poorly as he did. I have no issues with giving Mitchell another season. But if we get a rinse and repeat next season, it's time to attempt to trade him for better assets. We've seen so many teams successfully pull it off, I'm confident that we can be legitimate title contenders with a Garland/Mobley/Allen trio. We just need to get better pieces surrounding them.

And also, this NEEDS to be said. Isaac Okoro actually played really well in this series. I know people like to pretend that him getting in foul trouble early in game 2 is a key reason for us winning, but in reality, Garland went off and LeVert just so happened to have a great game too. Okoro really stepped up after losing his starting spot and did not show any fear against this Knicks team. Okoro needs to remain on this team and I hope he can really develop a consistent three pointer that isn't at the corner because if he does, that will be very valuable to our team as a whole.

I absolutely agree that we're focusing way too much on the 3/D Wing aspect of our team. While it's definitely a spot we need to improve in, this series really demonstrated why our lack of back up bigs are our main problem. It's literally the reason we lost this series.

We really need to stop making posts like this and not even attempt to use our brains. Allen has played significantly more minutes than the guys who are much bigger than him and cover less ground on offense. He has very little support to work with due to a lack of bigs to back him up and we’re actually giving him **** for not being able to keep up?

This is not on our bigs not being good enough. It has nothing to do with that. Our roster was not built to handle a team like the Knicks and it shows. I can’t for the life of me figure out why people thought we would be winning in six. This was a terrible matchup for us all around.

I would tend to agree with this but he offers hardly anything in the way of physicality. He just must not be that guy.

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that Jarrett Allen of all people was supposed to be THAT GUY. I'm well aware that we consider him to be part of our big four but at the end of the day that's all he is. Part of our big four. He's not the best player on our team at all and Evan Mobley in just his second season has already surpassed him as a player (and keep in mind, Allen was an all star last season). It's very clear that Jarrett Allen is not meant to be the cornerstone of our franchise and I don't think we ever expected him to be. He's one of our defensive anchors who is also capable of being a very dynamic big with a high IQ and great passing abilities.

Tonight was the first time that Mitchell Robinson played more than 30 minutes in this series. And the signs of fatigue were already setting in at the beginning of the fourth. Guess what? Jarrett Allen was having that issue all series long while having to deal with a guy with more muscle and athleticism than him, while also playing more minutes AND covering more ground due to how Cleveland's defense is structured. So why are we holding that against Allen when Cleveland was the one who set him up for failure in the first place by not putting him in a position to succeed? I'm not saying there aren't things Allen could have done better. What I will say however is that we are using this series to unfairly judge Allen's talent and abilities to help us win when in reality, very questionable decisions by the front office are what ultimately led to this moment.

Cleveland had the best ranked defense this season. Allen is a big reason for that. It stands within reason that right now, we should not consider trading Allen. We tend to forgot the positive contributions that he brings because we're focusing on the negative contributions we saw here. I can remember a time when people were saying that Kevin Love shouldn't even be playing anymore. And guess what? I was one of those people and I supported the decision to let him go. Well, now it's backfired on us and he's playing pretty well with Miami right now. We really could have used him in this series. Hell, I'll go as far as to say that if we still had Love, the series wouldn't be over right now.

I guess my point is, I think it would be best for us as fans to not overreact to this series. New York is far better than their record suggests and by no means is this an upset, despite what people might think. There's a reason they're 3-1 against us this season. Cleveland will move forward, and right now, getting rid of any of our big four should be the last thing on their minds.

Just a quick reminder that Donovan Mitchell didn’t trade for himself…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JonFromVA]

The narrative around Mitchell being a great playoff performer are way off. He has shot his team out of the playoffs pretty much every year.

His stats are massively overrated after he and Murray matched up and played no defense on each other a few years ago and it seems to be all everyone remembers (A series where he was eliminated)

He was overhyped early in his career because the US media were desperate to find the next great American superstar with a flood of international stars emerging. Now he has shown that he is not that guy, the media and fans won't admit the truth. The Emperor's got no clothes.

Mitchell needs to get back to what he was in college - hustle defender and offensive roll-payer. He can be a spot-up shooter and slasher, but he is pretty low IQ - he can't run the point and takes horrible contested shots all game. He can be a homeless man's D-Wade, or a more athletic Delly with lower BBIQ, but right now he thinks he is a superstar and he will kill his team in the Playoffs every time unless he can accept his limitations.

You might save this for the general board, it's generally considered baiting to say something like this on a team forum ... even if we aren't exactly happy with Mitchell at the moment.

[ijspeelman]

I'm disappointed in Mitchell, but I also don't see this as being how he plays in the playoffs typically. He was obviously struggling to get going because he couldn't find easy pathways to the paint and then he had to start self-generating too much of his own offense when he couldn't get it going in the first place.

The Mobley and Allen offense didn't surprise me to say the least. I know we've been looking to get them, especially Mobley, more looks, but even in the regular season we knew they weren't perfect hubs. Still want to see Mobley develop some kind of self-generation game, but looks like it will have to come through in the weight room.

Honestly, besides game 3, Garland was somewhat what I expected besides him also not being able to get into the paint at will. I think he'll do better in the future at generating offense for others, but the Knicks were smothering the paint and he's best at making those passes through small holes in the paint. There were no holes.

[JonFromVA]

The packed paint makes everything harder, but it's not like it was the first time we'd seen it. JBB eluded to the injuries catching up to the guys but pointed out everyone is dealing with it and that our guys need to focus this Summer in to getting in to the kind of shape required to get through the season and still play physical in the playoffs.

Of course he has some culpability in all of this he didn't want to fess up too, and if they want to run the team like a Miami Heat boot camp, I don't think there's any secret sauce ... just require a certain level of strength, body fat, and conditioning and start fining guys who don't meet their targets.

[jbk1234]

The packed paint makes everything harder, but it's not like it was the first time we'd seen it. JBB eluded to the injuries catching up to the guys but pointed out everyone is dealing with it and that our guys need to focus this Summer in to getting in to the kind of shape required to get through the season and still play physical in the playoffs.

Of course he has some culpability in all of this he didn't want to fess up too, and if they want to run the team like a Miami Heat boot camp, I don't think there's any secret sauce ... just require a certain level of strength, body fat, and conditioning and start fining guys who don't meet their targets.

Man, if that's JBB's takeaway, then maybe it really is time to thank him for his service and part ways. There's a reason Nuse was just fired.

[TheLand13]

The narrative around Mitchell being a great playoff performer are way off. He has shot his team out of the playoffs pretty much every year.

His stats are massively overrated after he and Murray matched up and played no defense on each other a few years ago and it seems to be all everyone remembers (A series where he was eliminated)

He was overhyped early in his career because the US media were desperate to find the next great American superstar with a flood of international stars emerging. Now he has shown that he is not that guy, the media and fans won't admit the truth. The Emperor's got no clothes.

Mitchell needs to get back to what he was in college - hustle defender and offensive roll-payer. He can be a spot-up shooter and slasher, but he is pretty low IQ - he can't run the point and takes horrible contested shots all game. He can be a homeless man's D-Wade, or a more athletic Delly with lower BBIQ, but right now he thinks he is a superstar and he will kill his team in the Playoffs every time unless he can accept his limitations.

You might save this for the general board, it's generally considered baiting to say something like this on a team forum ... even if we aren't exactly happy with Mitchell at the moment.

Not to mention, the data and this thing we like to call reality don't back this statement up at all. You can make an argument for this being the cast in last years playoffs and I'd probably agree with you, but by no means has this been the case for Mitchell throughout his career. This is horribly off base.

[JujitsuFlip]

The packed paint makes everything harder, but it's not like it was the first time we'd seen it. JBB eluded to the injuries catching up to the guys but pointed out everyone is dealing with it and that our guys need to focus this Summer in to getting in to the kind of shape required to get through the season and still play physical in the playoffs.

Of course he has some culpability in all of this he didn't want to fess up too, and if they want to run the team like a Miami Heat boot camp, I don't think there's any secret sauce ... just require a certain level of strength, body fat, and conditioning and start fining guys who don't meet their targets.

JB can also play more than 7 guys in rotation... Or mayb implement an actual offense so guys aren't working so hard and using so much offense just to get a shot off.

[JonFromVA]

The packed paint makes everything harder, but it's not like it was the first time we'd seen it. JBB eluded to the injuries catching up to the guys but pointed out everyone is dealing with it and that our guys need to focus this Summer in to getting in to the kind of shape required to get through the season and still play physical in the playoffs.

Of course he has some culpability in all of this he didn't want to fess up too, and if they want to run the team like a Miami Heat boot camp, I don't think there's any secret sauce ... just require a certain level of strength, body fat, and conditioning and start fining guys who don't meet their targets.

JB can also play more than 7 guys in rotation... Or mayb implement an actual offense so guys aren't working so hard and using so much offense just to get a shot off.

We were tied for the 8th ranked offense with the Warriors ... it had become a given that Mitchell was going to score no matter what opponents did to try to stop him. We expected Garland to run an offense and lead, especially with experienced points like Rubio and Neto on the bench to help guide him.

But change is hard and not everybody is motivated to or understands how to go about improving. A wake up call is often what it takes to forget what they think they know and listen to what other people tell them is necessary to get to the next level. Nobody is exempt from that.

[JonFromVA]

There's also one thing I want to mention that I haven't seen anyone really point out.

As much as it pains me to admit it, getting rid of Kevin Love is starting to look like a mistake. While I understand Bickerstaff's line of thinking at the time with taking Love out of the rotation as he was practically unplayable, it feels like it's come back to haunt us not just in this series, but for our team going forward. Kevin's been playing a lot better lately with Miami, and he still at the very least would have provided us with critical rebounding and floor stretching, both of which we are desperate for in this series against the Knicks. Hindsight is a bitch, and right now it's rearing its ugly head. I just hope things work out for the best for Kev in the end, but either way, I do miss him right now in Cleveland.

Well, we'll actually get to see Kevin .vs. the Knicks, but his shooting is still inconsistent. He would have helped us on the boards, but he broke the defense and that's what JBB hoped would drive everything for us - and it easily would have if we rebounded better and Mitchell/Garland played up to snuff.

[TheLand13]

There's also one thing I want to mention that I haven't seen anyone really point out.

As much as it pains me to admit it, getting rid of Kevin Love is starting to look like a mistake. While I understand Bickerstaff's line of thinking at the time with taking Love out of the rotation as he was practically unplayable, it feels like it's come back to haunt us not just in this series, but for our team going forward. Kevin's been playing a lot better lately with Miami, and he still at the very least would have provided us with critical rebounding and floor stretching, both of which we are desperate for in this series against the Knicks. Hindsight is a bitch, and right now it's rearing its ugly head. I just hope things work out for the best for Kev in the end, but either way, I do miss him right now in Cleveland.

Well, we'll actually get to see Kevin .vs. the Knicks, but his shooting is still inconsistent. He would have helped us on the boards, but he broke the defense and that's what JBB hoped would drive everything for us - and it easily would have if we rebounded better and Mitchell/Garland played up to snuff.

To be fair, I liked how Garland played. Definitely could have been better, but for his first series with the defensive attention he got and being the second option on offense, I don’t really blame him for this.

[JonFromVA]

There's also one thing I want to mention that I haven't seen anyone really point out.

As much as it pains me to admit it, getting rid of Kevin Love is starting to look like a mistake. While I understand Bickerstaff's line of thinking at the time with taking Love out of the rotation as he was practically unplayable, it feels like it's come back to haunt us not just in this series, but for our team going forward. Kevin's been playing a lot better lately with Miami, and he still at the very least would have provided us with critical rebounding and floor stretching, both of which we are desperate for in this series against the Knicks. Hindsight is a bitch, and right now it's rearing its ugly head. I just hope things work out for the best for Kev in the end, but either way, I do miss him right now in Cleveland.

Well, we'll actually get to see Kevin .vs. the Knicks, but his shooting is still inconsistent. He would have helped us on the boards, but he broke the defense and that's what JBB hoped would drive everything for us - and it easily would have if we rebounded better and Mitchell/Garland played up to snuff.

To be fair, I liked how Garland played. Definitely could have been better, but for his first series with the defensive attention he got and being the second option on offense, I don’t really blame him for this.

I'm not blaming, he's young and had been dealing with significant injuries since game 1 . . . but he needs to become a lot better consistently for the team to progress. Even in game 2 he looked gassed in the second half because he gave all he had in the first.

[TheLand13]

Well, we'll actually get to see Kevin .vs. the Knicks, but his shooting is still inconsistent. He would have helped us on the boards, but he broke the defense and that's what JBB hoped would drive everything for us - and it easily would have if we rebounded better and Mitchell/Garland played up to snuff.

To be fair, I liked how Garland played. Definitely could have been better, but for his first series with the defensive attention he got and being the second option on offense, I don’t really blame him for this.

I'm not blaming, he's young and had been dealing with significant injuries since game 1 . . . but he needs to become a lot better consistently for the team to progress. Even in game 2 he looked gassed in the second half because he gave all he had in the first.

Garland was dealing with significant injuries?

[JonFromVA]

To be fair, I liked how Garland played. Definitely could have been better, but for his first series with the defensive attention he got and being the second option on offense, I don’t really blame him for this.

I'm not blaming, he's young and had been dealing with significant injuries since game 1 . . . but he needs to become a lot better consistently for the team to progress. Even in game 2 he looked gassed in the second half because he gave all he had in the first.

Garland was dealing with significant injuries?

Yeah, since game 1 of the season (if that wasn't clear).

[TheLand13]

I'm not blaming, he's young and had been dealing with significant injuries since game 1 . . . but he needs to become a lot better consistently for the team to progress. Even in game 2 he looked gassed in the second half because he gave all he had in the first.

Garland was dealing with significant injuries?

Yeah, since game 1 of the season (if that wasn't clear).

And what injury would that be?

[JonFromVA]

Garland was dealing with significant injuries?

Yeah, since game 1 of the season (if that wasn't clear).

And what injury would that be?

An eye laceration that somehow kept getting aggravated throughout the season.