Starting SF Game 1 Of 2023-24 Season?

[JonFromVA]

The Knicks like many teams were cheating in the paint against everyone, even Garland. Not as far off as they got with Okoro, but we need to do more than put shooters on the floor. We need to weaponize them with screens and movement and trust them enough to keep going to them until the D actually stops playing with a foot in the paint.

That means our drivers need to really be paying attention to the floor spacing (and the play - can we run plays?) and look for the kick out opportunities.

So, it starts with trust that the shooters will finish the plays, but extends to everyone. Our non-shooter(s) on the floor need to go after those cheaters and screen them while our shooters re-locate to get a better passing angle, and then our drivers need to see it and make the pass.

Can JBB and his staff actually do that? Can Mitchell and Garland run an offense like that?

If not, teams are going to keep on cheating in to the paint until our shooters demonstrate they can bury multiple shots with a man running at them. And even when we start making them, the first defensive adjustment by a smart defender is going to be to try to anticipate the pass and steal it.

[JujitsuFlip]

The Knicks like many teams were cheating in the paint against everyone, even Garland. Not as far off as they got with Okoro, but we need to do more than put shooters on the floor. We need to weaponize them with screens and movement and trust them enough to keep going to them until the D actually stops playing with a foot in the paint.

That means our drivers need to really be paying attention to the floor spacing (and the play - can we run plays?) and look for the kick out opportunities.

So, it starts with trust that the shooters will finish the plays, but extends to everyone. Our non-shooter(s) on the floor need to go after those cheaters and screen them while our shooters re-locate to get a better passing angle, and then our drivers need to see it and make the pass.

Can JBB and his staff actually do that? Can Mitchell and Garland run an offense like that?

If not, teams are going to keep on cheating in to the paint until our shooters demonstrate they can bury multiple shots with a man running at them. And even when we start making them, the first defensive adjustment by a smart defender is going to be to try to anticipate the pass and steal it.

Even that is better than what happened the past 2 post seasons.

There's been zero gameplan.

I've said and I stick by it, if the Cavs look like crap in the mid season tournament get a new head coach and try to make the 2024 playoffs count.

The summer of 2024 is too important to have JBs recess/playground offense lead to another first round exit, or worse.

[toooskies]

It is a 100% better shooting team than those you listed as has been pointed out in the past.

I'm sorry the Cavs didn't waste all their money this summer on Naz Reid and Wood. One guy wasn't a FA by the time the moratorium opened and the other guy is still a FA because he's a horrible locker room guy.

*shrug*

By 3p% last year, those six players in order are Green 44%, Niang 40%, LeVert 39%, Jerome 39%, Osman 37%, Strus 35%. Roughly even.

By career, it's Niang 40%, Green 40%, Strus 37%, Osman 35%, Jerome 35%, LeVert 34%. Only a slight improvement overall.

Maybe you're counting on Strus and Niang having playoff reps and not getting nervous-- that's why we played Green. But this was a losing bench group.

That's one way to view it.

The volume + efficiency is what gives these guys "gravity".

Given the thread I'll throw in the other 2 SF options too.

Last year Strus 7.0 Niang 4.9 LeVert 4.4 Cedi 4.1 Green 3.4 Wade 2.9 Okoro 2.3 TJ 2.0

Career Strus 6.1 Green 4.8 Cedi 4.4 LeVert 4.2 Niang 3.7 TJ 3.1 Wade 2.9 Okoro 2.6

Corner 3% last year Niang 53.4% TJ 52.4% Strus 46.1% Cedi 43.0% Green 41.7% LeVert 41.3% Wade 40.4% Okoro 37.7%

Corner 3% career Strus 47.5% TJ 44.3% Niang 43.1% Green 42.3% Wade 38.7% Cedi 37.1% Okoro 36.4% LeVert 35.5%

You're comparing guys whose job it is to actually shoot it vs guys who are forced to shoot it.

Green and Cedi absolutely were guys whose job it was to actually shoot. You're grabbing per-game numbers and not per-minute, which of course skews Strus higher.

And your volume is going to depend on your role in the offense. I have no doubt Strus's volume will go down relative to Miami and Niang likely relative to Philly. Our starting SF will be our 5th option on the court, and neither Strus nor Niang will be higher than 3rd off the bench.

[JonFromVA]

By 3p% last year, those six players in order are Green 44%, Niang 40%, LeVert 39%, Jerome 39%, Osman 37%, Strus 35%. Roughly even.

By career, it's Niang 40%, Green 40%, Strus 37%, Osman 35%, Jerome 35%, LeVert 34%. Only a slight improvement overall.

Maybe you're counting on Strus and Niang having playoff reps and not getting nervous-- that's why we played Green. But this was a losing bench group.

That's one way to view it.

The volume + efficiency is what gives these guys "gravity".

Given the thread I'll throw in the other 2 SF options too.

Last year Strus 7.0 Niang 4.9 LeVert 4.4 Cedi 4.1 Green 3.4 Wade 2.9 Okoro 2.3 TJ 2.0

Career Strus 6.1 Green 4.8 Cedi 4.4 LeVert 4.2 Niang 3.7 TJ 3.1 Wade 2.9 Okoro 2.6

Corner 3% last year Niang 53.4% TJ 52.4% Strus 46.1% Cedi 43.0% Green 41.7% LeVert 41.3% Wade 40.4% Okoro 37.7%

Corner 3% career Strus 47.5% TJ 44.3% Niang 43.1% Green 42.3% Wade 38.7% Cedi 37.1% Okoro 36.4% LeVert 35.5%

You're comparing guys whose job it is to actually shoot it vs guys who are forced to shoot it.

Green and Cedi absolutely were guys whose job it was to actually shoot. You're grabbing per-game numbers and not per-minute, which of course skews Strus higher.

And your volume is going to depend on your role in the offense. I have no doubt Strus's volume will go down relative to Miami and Niang likely relative to Philly. Our starting SF will be our 5th option on the court, and neither Strus nor Niang will be higher than 3rd off the bench.

Just another reason I've tried to be a little cautionary about the Strus and Niang signings, and yeah, maybe the solution is to fire JBB, or maybe the solution was for the team to get whumped by the Knicks and forced to realize they need to play a whole lot smarter and better.

Strus and Niang are imperfect players for the roles we hope they can play. The last thing we want to do is hide their strengths and expose their weaknesses.

[JujitsuFlip]

By 3p% last year, those six players in order are Green 44%, Niang 40%, LeVert 39%, Jerome 39%, Osman 37%, Strus 35%. Roughly even.

By career, it's Niang 40%, Green 40%, Strus 37%, Osman 35%, Jerome 35%, LeVert 34%. Only a slight improvement overall.

Maybe you're counting on Strus and Niang having playoff reps and not getting nervous-- that's why we played Green. But this was a losing bench group.

That's one way to view it.

The volume + efficiency is what gives these guys "gravity".

Given the thread I'll throw in the other 2 SF options too.

Last year Strus 7.0 Niang 4.9 LeVert 4.4 Cedi 4.1 Green 3.4 Wade 2.9 Okoro 2.3 TJ 2.0

Career Strus 6.1 Green 4.8 Cedi 4.4 LeVert 4.2 Niang 3.7 TJ 3.1 Wade 2.9 Okoro 2.6

Corner 3% last year Niang 53.4% TJ 52.4% Strus 46.1% Cedi 43.0% Green 41.7% LeVert 41.3% Wade 40.4% Okoro 37.7%

Corner 3% career Strus 47.5% TJ 44.3% Niang 43.1% Green 42.3% Wade 38.7% Cedi 37.1% Okoro 36.4% LeVert 35.5%

You're comparing guys whose job it is to actually shoot it vs guys who are forced to shoot it.

Green and Cedi absolutely were guys whose job it was to actually shoot. You're grabbing per-game numbers and not per-minute, which of course skews Strus higher.

And your volume is going to depend on your role in the offense. I have no doubt Strus's volume will go down relative to Miami and Niang likely relative to Philly. Our starting SF will be our 5th option on the court, and neither Strus nor Niang will be higher than 3rd off the bench.

Buddy, you pulled per game #s i just added the relative context to the data you presented.

Nah, if Cedi was our shooter, we are in trouble. That guy was not a pure shooter by any measure. He may have masquerade out on the perimeter but as the goofy guy in the Walgreens video said, "you're not that guy, pal, trust me".

I don't think we need to use the corpse of Danny Green for any kind of point making.

[toooskies]

That's one way to view it.

The volume + efficiency is what gives these guys "gravity".

Given the thread I'll throw in the other 2 SF options too.

Last year Strus 7.0 Niang 4.9 LeVert 4.4 Cedi 4.1 Green 3.4 Wade 2.9 Okoro 2.3 TJ 2.0

Career Strus 6.1 Green 4.8 Cedi 4.4 LeVert 4.2 Niang 3.7 TJ 3.1 Wade 2.9 Okoro 2.6

Corner 3% last year Niang 53.4% TJ 52.4% Strus 46.1% Cedi 43.0% Green 41.7% LeVert 41.3% Wade 40.4% Okoro 37.7%

Corner 3% career Strus 47.5% TJ 44.3% Niang 43.1% Green 42.3% Wade 38.7% Cedi 37.1% Okoro 36.4% LeVert 35.5%

You're comparing guys whose job it is to actually shoot it vs guys who are forced to shoot it.

Green and Cedi absolutely were guys whose job it was to actually shoot. You're grabbing per-game numbers and not per-minute, which of course skews Strus higher.

And your volume is going to depend on your role in the offense. I have no doubt Strus's volume will go down relative to Miami and Niang likely relative to Philly. Our starting SF will be our 5th option on the court, and neither Strus nor Niang will be higher than 3rd off the bench.

Buddy, you pulled per game #s i just added the relative context to the data you presented.

Nah, if Cedi was our shooter, we are in trouble. That guy was not a pure shooter by any measure. He may have masquerade out on the perimeter but as the goofy guy in the Walgreens video said, "you're not that guy, pal, trust me".

I don't think we need to use the corpse of Danny Green for any kind of point making.

I'm just not sold that Strus is a much better shooter than Osman or that Niang is a better defender than Green.

[JujitsuFlip]

Green and Cedi absolutely were guys whose job it was to actually shoot. You're grabbing per-game numbers and not per-minute, which of course skews Strus higher.

And your volume is going to depend on your role in the offense. I have no doubt Strus's volume will go down relative to Miami and Niang likely relative to Philly. Our starting SF will be our 5th option on the court, and neither Strus nor Niang will be higher than 3rd off the bench.

Buddy, you pulled per game #s i just added the relative context to the data you presented.

Nah, if Cedi was our shooter, we are in trouble. That guy was not a pure shooter by any measure. He may have masquerade out on the perimeter but as the goofy guy in the Walgreens video said, "you're not that guy, pal, trust me".

I don't think we need to use the corpse of Danny Green for any kind of point making.

I'm just not sold that Strus is a much better shooter than Osman or that Niang is a better defender than Green.

Niang isn't here to defend, he's here to volume shoot, if open or make his defender stay with him, so the 6'1"ers can have room to operate.

You don't have to be sold on it but Strus is gonna shoot nearly twice the volume on similar efficiency, the defenders can either stick with him or give him an easy 10 ppg every night.

[ijspeelman]

Green and Cedi absolutely were guys whose job it was to actually shoot. You're grabbing per-game numbers and not per-minute, which of course skews Strus higher.

And your volume is going to depend on your role in the offense. I have no doubt Strus's volume will go down relative to Miami and Niang likely relative to Philly. Our starting SF will be our 5th option on the court, and neither Strus nor Niang will be higher than 3rd off the bench.

Buddy, you pulled per game #s i just added the relative context to the data you presented.

Nah, if Cedi was our shooter, we are in trouble. That guy was not a pure shooter by any measure. He may have masquerade out on the perimeter but as the goofy guy in the Walgreens video said, "you're not that guy, pal, trust me".

I don't think we need to use the corpse of Danny Green for any kind of point making.

I'm just not sold that Strus is a much better shooter than Osman or that Niang is a better defender than Green.

If you are worried about Strus not being a better shooter than Cedi, let me put that to rest.

I am going to take the last 4 seasons (this is to be nice to Cedi and give him the sample that includes his best three point % season and by extension puts Strus' rookie/worst season in) and give your their average FGA/75 possessions and %.

Cedi (last 4 seasons) shot at 35.4% on 7.6 3pa per 75 possessions
Strus (last 4 seasons) shot at 37.1% on 9.9 3p attempts per 75 possessions

Thus, just based on raw stats Strus is significantly better with efficiency and volume. I also have Strus as a much better defender than Cedi. Strus also has an underrated handle and passing ability (not that I really want him running PNRs, but I didn't want Cedi to either).

Niang is probably a worse defender than Green, but again its about spacing and how Mobley/Allen help make up for perimeter deficiencies. There is a balance we need to make.

Green (last 4 seasons) shot at 38.8% on 7.6 3pa per 75 possessions
Niang (last 4 seasons) shot at 40.7% on 8.9 3pa per 75 possessions

[JonFromVA]

Buddy, you pulled per game #s i just added the relative context to the data you presented.

Nah, if Cedi was our shooter, we are in trouble. That guy was not a pure shooter by any measure. He may have masquerade out on the perimeter but as the goofy guy in the Walgreens video said, "you're not that guy, pal, trust me".

I don't think we need to use the corpse of Danny Green for any kind of point making.

I'm just not sold that Strus is a much better shooter than Osman or that Niang is a better defender than Green.

If you are worried about Strus not being a better shooter than Cedi, let me put that to rest.

I am going to take the last 4 seasons (this is to be nice to Cedi and give him the sample that includes his best three point % season and by extension puts Strus' rookie/worst season in) and give your their average FGA/75 possessions and %.

Cedi (last 4 seasons) shot at 35.4% on 7.6 3pa per 75 possessions
Strus (last 4 seasons) shot at 37.1% on 9.9 3p attempts per 75 possessions

Thus, just based on raw stats Strus is significantly better with efficiency and volume. I also have Strus as a much better defender than Cedi. Strus also has an underrated handle and passing ability (not that I really want him running PNRs, but I didn't want Cedi to either).

Niang is probably a worse defender than Green, but again its about spacing and how Mobley/Allen help make up for perimeter deficiencies. There is a balance we need to make.

Green (last 4 seasons) shot at 38.8% on 7.6 3pa per 75 possessions
Niang (last 4 seasons) shot at 40.7% on 8.9 3pa per 75 possessions

Cedi shot better from 3pt than Max just this past season and Strus has only a single season of above average shooting in the NBA. As far as playoffs go, both have been bad (albeit Cedi has a 1/10th the number of attempts).

Niang, is a proven shooter and has shot well in the playoffs too.

There's a lot to like about the pickups, but they'll need to prove they fit on this team with this roster and this coach; and meanwhile our 8-man rotation doesn't technically have to change with Okoro, LeVert, Wade, and Rubio all still on the roster.

That's a good thing, IMO.

[mcfly1204]

Any word on the starting 5 for Wednesday?

[toooskies]

Any word on the starting 5 for Wednesday?

Strus has been treated like the starter in preseason.

He's also been taking (and missing) all the contested shots that he took in Miami.

[JonFromVA]

Any word on the starting 5 for Wednesday?

Strus has been treated like the starter in preseason.

He's also been taking (and missing) all the contested shots that he took in Miami.

Yes, as our "big signing" it sure looks like Strus is being handed the starting spot. Dean and Isaac have played well, but presumably JBB will let Strus actually play with the other 4 starters and try to build some chemistry before nuking that plan.

[JujitsuFlip]

Any word on the starting 5 for Wednesday?

Strus has been treated like the starter in preseason.

He's also been taking (and missing) all the contested shots that he took in Miami.

Yeah, about that.

[toooskies]

Any word on the starting 5 for Wednesday?

Strus has been treated like the starter in preseason.

He's also been taking (and missing) all the contested shots that he took in Miami.

Yeah, about that.

Nearly all the shots he took tonight were pretty open. Which is great! And we needed every rebound.

[mcfly1204]

Man, Okoro looked solid as the starting SF last night.

[JujitsuFlip]

Man, Okoro looked solid as the starting SF last night.

[mcfly1204]

Man, Okoro looked solid as the starting SF last night.

Yeah, the 2 SG lineup worked out well last night.

[ijspeelman]

Man, Okoro looked solid as the starting SF last night.

It was semi-arbitrary if Okoro or Strus was the PF. They both took turns guarding Mikal, Simmons, and Cameron Johnson (don't even know which one we'd consider the PF on their team). For two 6'5 guys manning the forward spots, it looked better than it could have.

[JujitsuFlip]

Man, Okoro looked solid as the starting SF last night.

It was semi-arbitrary if Okoro or Strus was the PF. They both took turns guarding Mikal, Simmons, and Cameron Johnson (don't even know which one we'd consider the PF on their team). For two 6'5 guys manning the forward spots, it looked better than it could have.

Yeah would be nice to have Wade and/or Allen back since our 15th spot is vacant, our 14th spot is on a medical leave, and spots 13 and 12 appear to be unplayable. And i guess the back-up center is a bit foul prone.

Did Brobley and Bates dress last night?

[ijspeelman]

It was semi-arbitrary if Okoro or Strus was the PF. They both took turns guarding Mikal, Simmons, and Cameron Johnson (don't even know which one we'd consider the PF on their team). For two 6'5 guys manning the forward spots, it looked better than it could have.

Yeah would be nice to have Wade and/or Allen back since our 15th spot is vacant, our 14th spot is on a medical leave, and spots 13 and 12 appear to be unplayable. And i guess the back-up center is a bit foul prone.

Did Brobley and Bates dress last night?

They were both dressed (in uniform) and were hype men the whole night