ImageImageImage

Game 3: Pacers @ Cavs 10/28/23

Moderator: ijspeelman

JujitsuFlip
General Manager
Posts: 8,210
And1: 5,102
Joined: Sep 10, 2021

Re: Game 3: Pacers @ Cavs 10/28/23 

Post#41 » by JujitsuFlip » Tue Oct 31, 2023 1:38 am

Iwasawitness wrote:It's very clear you aren't going to give JBB any positive credit. In your eyes he's apparently the worst thing to ever happen to this franchise for whatever reason and that's on you to believe that. So I'm going to move on from this.

Because he's in his 5th season and has accomplished no post season success, not that hard of a concept to grasp. JB doesn't deserve grace when the Cavs traded all those assets for Mitchell and this is potentially his final season with the Cavs.

The front office made this season urgent and the pressure is on. We don't have several seasons for JB to learn how to coach, he can go down and coach the Charge or something and work that out with himself.

After June the Cavs don't control their 1st round draft pick until 2030, no moral victories here, the time is now.
JonFromVA
RealGM
Posts: 13,669
And1: 4,398
Joined: Dec 08, 2009
     

Re: Game 3: Pacers @ Cavs 10/28/23 

Post#42 » by JonFromVA » Tue Oct 31, 2023 3:21 pm

Iwasawitness wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Iwasawitness wrote:
Bickerstaff has some very good qualities that give him potential and reasons to hope he gets better.

He's not afraid to try odd rotations that most teams wouldn't, and while in most cases it hasn't always worked, there are some times where he's had strokes of genius. Having Lauri be the starting SF and go with a lineup consisting of three bigs was his idea, and it ended up working wonders for them. Most teams would have never even considered going that route given the landscape of the NBA today, but he saw value in the unique advantages that going that route would bring to the team. And when Evan Mobley was drafted by Cleveland, Bickerstaff was all for making him an immediate starter and putting him at PF, while having Kevin Love be their sixth man. As badly as he ended up screwing up in the end with Kevin, Bickerstaff saw the value in having him come off the bench in order to maximize his value and it worked wonders.

He's very good with players and knows how to humble them quickly. He knows that players can get full of themselves and he makes it clear that isn't going to fly on his team. Sometimes that works against him, but it's a good thing to have.

But his greatest quality without question is how good his teams are defensively. Everything changed for Cleveland when Jarrett Allen got traded there and he integrated a system built around him as the anchor. But Evan Mobley took them to another level. But under Bickerstaff, Allen took a big step as a defender compared to his time in Brooklyn. Dean Wade made remarkable strides as a defender since first coming to the team. But the one that gets me the most is how much better Mitchell has been as a defender since coming to Cleveland. Mark it down as him just putting in extra effort, but not doing so just isn't something Bickerstaff would accept. A coach committed to defense is an excellent quality, especially when he's actually good at it.

Bickerstaff has some really poor qualities as a coach, and you can argue they're a major reason for Cleveland's first round exit against NY (and I would agree with that take). Strangely enough, had Cleveland not made that trade for Mitchell, Bickerstaff's job probably wouldn't be at stake if they didn't at the very least make the second round this season. Cleveland very clearly has big aspirations for their roster, so they aren't willing to wait. But had it not been for the trade, they more than likely would be willing to wait, and I would even support that.

With that said, if we don't see major improvements to his offensive schemes and rotations, I agree that it's time to move on from him.


I'd just like to have a coach that gets the most of his players, not just manage egos and extol them to play hard when most other teams are cruising.

Why didn't he carve out a role that made more sense for Isaac before his 4th season in the league? And while the 3-big lineup was cool, imagine JBB had unlocked Lauri in Cleveland before the Mitchell trade? All he had to do was ask more out of his small forwards than standing in a corner waiting for a pass to a shoot a 3.

JBB can get better, but will the final version be worth the wait?

But hey, +1 for trying to see both sides.


So I've actually heard that argument before regarding how JB used Lauri and that he limited what Lauri could have done for the team. There's two sides to the argument here.

On one hand, I fully agree. I've stated before that I thought Lauri would have been the perfect second option alongside Garland. But on the other hand, let me ask you guys a question.

If Lauri was truly unlocked and became what he is now... aren't we just going through the same situation with Mobley then that we are now? Where we are now limiting Mobley's offensive potential and preventing him from being able to properly develop if we are prioritizing Lauri instead? I don't know, because what happened has happened and we're never going to know what going this route would have produced. But here's what I will say: that big lineup was a major reason for Cleveland surprising that season and doubling their record from the previous year. I don't think people realize how big of a deal that is. Cleveland's record double and part of the reason for that is because of changes to the lineup that JB made. He played a factor in that. That deserves a lot of credit, and it's credit he doesn't get enough of. And how he's used Mitchell since he's arrived to Cleveland deserves credit as well.

I don't know, I guess I kind of view this situation the same way I view what was going on with Erik Spolstra when he was first starting out with LeBron. I don't know if people remember this or not, but Erik actually got a lot of criticism throughout his first four years with Miami. Once LeBron left, Erik was able to try out new things and figure out how to truly be a better coach. I'm not saying that JB is on the level of Spo or that he ever will be... but the thing is, Spo had positive qualities that he could work off of. Some people don't have that and just aren't meant to be good coaches. Some are utterly hopeless and never change. Some are stuck to one mindset and wait way too long to change (looking at you pringles, seriously why did you wait until Houston to suddenly care about defense). JB has a lot of faults, but as someone who loves the defensive side of basketball and considers that more important, I love the idea of having a coach that specializes in it. I just wish he... knew what he was doing in other aspects.

And actually, you know what? I'm going to take this a step even further. Remember Mike Brown? This guy was actually even WORSE than Bickerstaff was when it came to coaching an offense during his first stint with Cleveland. He pretty much just ran everything through LeBron, he had no idea what he was doing. Doc Rivers of all people outcoached him decisively.

But now look at Mike Brown. He just won COY last season leading one of the most proficient offenses in the league. He's considered one of the most brilliant minds in that regard. Sometimes people just need time to figure things out.


It's really hard to compare any coaches situation to a coach having to deal with LeBron James and everything that comes with that, and to be fair while Will Hardy was able to quickly and easily unlock Lauri by just adapting the plays they ran for him with Finland; they too are not off to a great start and they don't seem to be trying to build on what they had success with last year.

But presumably our ideal super-coach would find ways to use Evan within the offense that would take advantage of his strengths while minimizing his weaknesses. For instance, Mike D'Antoni once upon a time took advantage of the fact that while Amare Stoudemire was smaller than most C's he was facing, he was much faster and there would always be a few seconds where Phoenix could have at worst a 5-4 if they asked him to run the floor and pushed the ball.

We have a young team, why are they just figuring out they can push the ball in transition more? It's our grit and grind coach.

Maybe that's not an advantage in an age where teams are going small and smaller; and slow and plodding C's are going by the wayside; but how about Evan's passing and court vision? Is it possible our super-coach could get Mobley moving more in our offense so he doesn't have to over dribble but can make quick drives / finishes and/or timely passes?

Could our super-smart coach make sure Evan knows how to set an effective screen? How to screen off the ball? How to box out effectively? How to move off the ball? Maybe just let the kid pick a favorite spot on the floor, and run a play with the intent to get him at least 3 shots a game from that spot.

Return to Cleveland Cavaliers