Game 26: Hawks @ Cavs 12/6/2023

Post #1 » by **ijspeelman** » Sun Dec 17, 2023 12:04 am

Post #2 » by **ijspeelman** » Sun Dec 17, 2023 12:26 am

Checking in

Iwasawitness · Post #3 » by **Iwasawitness** » Sun Dec 17, 2023 12:32 am

I'll be totally honest... I really don't want to watch this game. The idea of Mobley being out for two months is just depressing. Whether or not Cleveland wins this game doesn't matter to me much. I'm sure I'll get over this in a couple days but the news of the continued injuries just sting.

Post #4 » by **jbk1234** » Sun Dec 17, 2023 1:00 am

The Hawks have the worst defensive team in the NBA.

mcfly1204 · Post #5 » by **mcfly1204** » Sun Dec 17, 2023 1:06 am

Iwasawitness wrote:I'll be totally honest... I really don't want to watch this game. The idea of Mobley being out for two months is just depressing. Whether or not Cleveland wins this game doesn't matter to me much. I'm sure I'll get over this in a couple days but the news of the continued injuries just sting.

I'm the exact opposite. I want to watch to see who steps up.

Iwasawitness · Post #6 » by **Iwasawitness** » Sun Dec 17, 2023 1:33 am

It's honestly mind blowing how bad the Hawks are defensively.

mcfly1204 · Post #7 » by **mcfly1204** » Sun Dec 17, 2023 1:55 am

If they keep this starting 5, between Okoro and Wade, who shows out more?

Post #8 » by **jbk1234** » Sun Dec 17, 2023 2:34 am

mcfly1204 wrote:If they keep this starting 5, between Okoro and Wade, who shows out more?

Okoro against good defensive teams is really ineffective.

JonFromVA · Post #9 » by **JonFromVA** » Mon Dec 18, 2023 3:33 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
mcfly1204 wrote:If they keep this starting 5, between Okoro and Wade, who shows out more?

Okoro against good defensive teams is really ineffective.

Our offense breaks down far too easily and then we have little use for players who don't attack the rim or shoot. Fortunately both Isaac and Dean are shooting well, so, they should still be able to contribute.

With our luck/coach one or both of them will get injured before either either "shows out".

We've actually seen this before where the team fights really hard to prove they're not dead in the water, and catching a struggling Hawks team on a road back to back helps too. The big question is whether they can keep it up. There's lots of ways this could go, but Donovan setting a career high in assists and making big plays all over the place is hopefully a hint he's going to be willing to do a lot more than just showcase his scoring ability.

JBB being the sort of coach he is would probably love to focus the team on defense and powering the offense on stops, but there's also an opportunity to try to expand the offensive roles of a number of players. Having Isaac bring the ball up the floor at times suggests they would like to see him expand his role.

At least for as long as Caris is on a minutes restriction and JBB remains hesitant to ask more of CPJ.

I think I had a dream that I read an article that Ricky Rubio was making his return. I suppose that's an indication of even my subconscious wishful thinking for this team. 8-)

JujitsuFlip · Post #10 » by **JujitsuFlip** » Mon Dec 18, 2023 3:44 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
mcfly1204 wrote:If they keep this starting 5, between Okoro and Wade, who shows out more?

Okoro against good defensive teams is really ineffective.

Our offense breaks down far too easily and then we have little use for players who don't attack the rim or shoot. Fortunately both Isaac and Dean are shooting well, so, they should still be able to contribute.

With our luck/coach one or both of them will get injured before either either "shows out".

We've actually seen this before where the team fights really hard to prove they're not dead in the water, and catching a struggling Hawks team on a road back to back helps too. The big question is whether they can keep it up. There's lots of ways this could go, but Donovan setting a career high in assists and making big plays all over the place is hopefully a hint he's going to be willing to do a lot more than just showcase his scoring ability.

JBB being the sort of coach he is would probably love to focus the team on defense and powering the offense on stops, but there's also an opportunity to try to expand the offensive roles of a number of players. Having Isaac bring the ball up the floor at times suggests they would like to see him expand his role.

At least for as long as Caris is on a minutes restriction and JBB remains hesitant to ask more of CPJ.

I think I had a dream that I read an article that Ricky Rubio was making his return. I suppose that's an indication of even my subconscious wishful thinking for this team.

They wanted Okoro to become a ball handler as far back as the 2021 summer league, he just never proved he had it.

PS i think TJ touches the floor again before Rubio.

JonFromVA · Post #11 » by **JonFromVA** » Mon Dec 18, 2023 4:34 pm

JujitsuFlip wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Okoro against good defensive teams is really ineffective.

Our offense breaks down far too easily and then we have little use for players who don't attack the rim or shoot. Fortunately both Isaac and Dean are shooting well, so, they should still be able to contribute.

With our luck/coach one or both of them will get injured before either either "shows out".

We've actually seen this before where the team fights really hard to prove they're not dead in the water, and catching a struggling Hawks team on a road back to back helps too. The big question is whether they can keep it up. There's lots of ways this could go, but Donovan setting a career high in assists and making big plays all over the place is hopefully a hint he's going to be willing to do a lot more than just showcase his scoring ability.

JBB being the sort of coach he is would probably love to focus the team on defense and powering the offense on stops, but there's also an opportunity to try to expand the offensive roles of a number of players. Having Isaac bring the ball up the floor at times suggests they would like to see him expand his role.

At least for as long as Caris is on a minutes restriction and JBB remains hesitant to ask more of CPJ.

I think I had a dream that I read an article that Ricky Rubio was making his return. I suppose that's an indication of even my subconscious wishful thinking for this team.
They wanted Okoro to become a ball handler as far back as the 2021 summer league, he just never proved he had it.

PS i think TJ touches the floor again before Rubio.

The problem with JBB always coaching for his job, is he has no room to let players play through mistakes and develop on the floor; but at least there's an opportunity here for Issac to try to show he's made some progress.

Still, let me know if someone notices Isaac dribbling on the perimeter and rather than making a quick decision, instead calls for a screen and tries to run a P&R or P&P like any other wing expected to try to create offense would do.

Having players who will actually do what the coach wants is very valuable, but it should be a two way street where the coach doesn't just squeeze only the known good things from the player in the regular season.

Post #12 » by **jbk1234** » Mon Dec 18, 2023 5:10 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
JujitsuFlip wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Our offense breaks down far too easily and then we have little use for players who don't attack the rim or shoot. Fortunately both Isaac and Dean are shooting well, so, they should still be able to contribute.

With our luck/coach one or both of them will get injured before either either "shows out".

We've actually seen this before where the team fights really hard to prove they're not dead in the water, and catching a struggling Hawks team on a road back to back helps too. The big question is whether they can keep it up. There's lots of ways this could go, but Donovan setting a career high in assists and making big plays all over the place is hopefully a hint he's going to be willing to do a lot more than just showcase his scoring ability.

JBB being the sort of coach he is would probably love to focus the team on defense and powering the offense on stops, but there's also an opportunity to try to expand the offensive roles of a number of players. Having Isaac bring the ball up the floor at times suggests they would like to see him expand his role.

At least for as long as Caris is on a minutes restriction and JBB remains hesitant to ask more of CPJ.

I think I had a dream that I read an article that Ricky Rubio was making his return. I suppose that's an indication of even my subconscious wishful thinking for this team.
They wanted Okoro to become a ball handler as far back as the 2021 summer league, he just never proved he had it.

PS i think TJ touches the floor again before Rubio.

The problem with JBB always coaching for his job, is he has no room to let players play through mistakes and develop on the floor; but at least there's an opportunity here for Issac to try to show he's made some progress.

Still, let me know if someone notices Isaac dribbling on the perimeter and rather than making a quick decision, instead calls for a screen and tries to run a P&R or P&P like any other wing expected to try to create offense would do.

Having players who will actually do what the coach wants is very valuable, but it should be a two way street where the coach doesn't just squeeze only the known good things from the player in the regular season.

I know you're an Okoro fan, but we're in his 4th season and Okoro is about to surpass Sexton in terms of receiving unearned minutes. The idea that JBB has been unfair to him is, almost entirely, backwards. JBB loves defense as has tried to force the issue with Okoro every season Okoro has been on the roster. JBB rolled out some of the most absurd zero-spacing lineups ever seen last season.

Okoro doesn't call for a pick, because he can't split a double, his handle is suspect, and the opposing team would just go under it (unless it was Niang on a good night). Okoro is a solid defensive specialist as a 2 guard, but he gives up too much size at SF, and he needs to be on the court with three other shooters. Also, we don't really have the luxury of burning through what could be Mitchell's last season here in an attempt to further develop a player who's already gotten a lot of playing time over three+ seasons.

I like and respect you Jon, but there are hard limits to player development. Windler just got cut in favor of Grandpa Gibson, Stevens is getting minimal run in Boston (despite them being very thin in the frontcourt), and Sexton is being reported as being *available* in trade talks for the 3rd time in 14 months after signing with the Jazz. For every successful reclamation project a tanking team takes on, there are at least ten guys who end up as deep bench players or wash out of the league altogether.

JonFromVA · Post #13 » by **JonFromVA** » Mon Dec 18, 2023 11:49 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
JujitsuFlip wrote:They wanted Okoro to become a ball handler as far back as the 2021 summer league, he just never proved he had it.

PS i think TJ touches the floor again before Rubio.

The problem with JBB always coaching for his job, is he has no room to let players play through mistakes and develop on the floor; but at least there's an opportunity here for Issac to try to show he's made some progress.

Still, let me know if someone notices Isaac dribbling on the perimeter and rather than making a quick decision, instead calls for a screen and tries to run a P&R or P&P like any other wing expected to try to create offense would do.

Having players who will actually do what the coach wants is very valuable, but it should be a two way street where the coach doesn't just squeeze only the known good things from the player in the regular season.

I know you're an Okoro fan, but we're in his 4th season and Okoro is about to surpass Sexton in terms of receiving unearned minutes. The idea that JBB has been unfair to him is, almost entirely, backwards. JBB loves defense as has tried to force the issue with Okoro every season Okoro has been on the roster. JBB rolled out some of the most absurd zero-spacing lineups ever seen last season.

Okoro doesn't call for a pick, because he can't split a double, his handle is suspect, and the opposing team would just go under it (unless it was Niang on a good night). Okoro is a solid defensive specialist as a 2 guard, but he gives up too much size at SF, and he needs to be on the court with three other shooters. Also, we don't really have the luxury of burning through what could be Mitchell's last season here in an attempt to further develop a player who's already gotten a lot of playing time over three+ seasons.

I like and respect you Jon, but there are hard limits to player development. Windler just got cut in favor of Grandpa Gibson, Stevens is getting minimal run in Boston (despite them being very thin in the frontcourt), and Sexton is being reported as being *available* in trade talks for the 3rd time in 14 months after signing with the Jazz. For every successful reclamation project a tanking team takes on, there are at least ten guys who end up as deep bench players or wash out of the league altogether.

It often comes down to time, drive, opportunity and whether we're willing to grant it. You're right that JBB loves Isaac for his defense and hustle and that's bought him a lot of time on the floor, but very little rope to try anything outside his strengths.

So, it's not like he needs to be able to split a double team to run a P&R, he's supposed to pass the ball to the guy who isn't doubled. As for his handle, it's fine for basic plays and at least we'd be trying to make teams pay for putting a weak defender on him.

As for Windler and Sexton, I could talk about them ... but you know what? That would be counter-purpose because Isaac isn't them.

The only way we as fans can know whether Okoro can develop is to see him get the chance and either make progress, stay the same, or regress. And then see him get more chances. We're not working with him, we're not watching him in practice. We have no other way to judge his progress.

But with Garland out, he'll get at least get a slightly expanded role.

I wish you would look at the numbers for Isaac and this team because you should know full well there is no magic number of shooters that makes our lineups work well. We're not chock full of lengthy 2-way players, everything we do has tradeoffs.

JujitsuFlip · Post #14 » by **JujitsuFlip** » Tue Dec 19, 2023 12:19 am

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
The problem with JBB always coaching for his job, is he has no room to let players play through mistakes and develop on the floor; but at least there's an opportunity here for Issac to try to show he's made some progress.

Still, let me know if someone notices Isaac dribbling on the perimeter and rather than making a quick decision, instead calls for a screen and tries to run a P&R or P&P like any other wing expected to try to create offense would do.

Having players who will actually do what the coach wants is very valuable, but it should be a two way street where the coach doesn't just squeeze only the known good things from the player in the regular season.

I know you're an Okoro fan, but we're in his 4th season and Okoro is about to surpass Sexton in terms of receiving unearned minutes. The idea that JBB has been unfair to him is, almost entirely, backwards. JBB loves defense as has tried to force the issue with Okoro every season Okoro has been on the roster. JBB rolled out some of the most absurd zero-spacing lineups ever seen last season.

Okoro doesn't call for a pick, because he can't split a double, his handle is suspect, and the opposing team would just go under it (unless it was Niang on a good night). Okoro is a solid defensive specialist as a 2 guard, but he gives up too much size at SF, and he needs to be on the court with three other shooters. Also, we don't really have the luxury of burning through what could be Mitchell's last season here in an attempt to further develop a player who's already gotten a lot of playing time over three+ seasons.

I like and respect you Jon, but there are hard limits to player development. Windler just got cut in favor of Grandpa Gibson, Stevens is getting minimal run in Boston (despite them being very thin in the frontcourt), and Sexton is being reported as being *available* in trade talks for the 3rd time in 14 months after signing with the Jazz. For every successful reclamation project a tanking team takes on, there are at least ten guys who end up as deep bench players or wash out of the league altogether.

It often comes down to time, drive, opportunity and whether we're willing to grant it. You're right that JBB loves Isaac for his defense and hustle and that's bought him a lot of time on the floor, but very little rope to try anything outside his strengths.

So, it's not like he needs to be able to split a double team to run a P&R, he's supposed to pass the ball to the guy who isn't doubled. As for his handle, it's fine for basic plays and at least we'd be trying to make teams pay for putting a weak defender on him.

As for Windler and Sexton, I could talk about them ... but you know what? That would be counter-purpose because Isaac isn't them.

The only way we as fans can know whether Okoro can develop is to see him get the chance and either make progress, stay the same, or regress. And then see him get more chances. We're not working with him, we're not watching him in practice. We have no other way to judge his progress.

But with Garland out, he'll get at least get a slightly expanded role.

I wish you would look at the numbers for Isaac and this team because you should know full well there is no magic number of shooters that makes our lineups work well. We're not chock full of lengthy 2-way players, everything we do has tradeoffs.

I feel like the Cavs kind of surrendered their opportunity to properly take time to develop their guys when they traded for Mitchell.

Post #15 » by **ijspeelman** » Tue Dec 19, 2023 3:16 am

JujitsuFlip wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
I know you're an Okoro fan, but we're in his 4th season and Okoro is about to surpass Sexton in terms of receiving unearned minutes. The idea that JBB has been unfair to him is, almost entirely, backwards. JBB loves defense as has tried to force the issue with Okoro every season Okoro has been on the roster. JBB rolled out some of the most absurd zero-spacing lineups ever seen last season.

Okoro doesn't call for a pick, because he can't split a double, his handle is suspect, and the opposing team would just go under it (unless it was Niang on a good night). Okoro is a solid defensive specialist as a 2 guard, but he gives up too much size at SF, and he needs to be on the court with three other shooters. Also, we don't really have the luxury of burning through what could be Mitchell's last season here in an attempt to further develop a player who's already gotten a lot of playing time over three+ seasons.

I like and respect you Jon, but there are hard limits to player development. Windler just got cut in favor of Grandpa Gibson, Stevens is getting minimal run in Boston (despite them being very thin in the frontcourt), and Sexton is being reported as being *available* in trade talks for the 3rd time in 14 months after signing with the Jazz. For every successful reclamation project a tanking team takes on, there are at least ten guys who end up as deep bench players or wash out of the league altogether.

It often comes down to time, drive, opportunity and whether we're willing to grant it. You're right that JBB loves Isaac for his defense and hustle and that's bought him a lot of time on the floor, but very little rope to try anything outside his strengths.

So, it's not like he needs to be able to split a double team to run a P&R, he's supposed to pass the ball to the guy who isn't doubled. As for his handle, it's fine for basic plays and at least we'd be trying to make teams pay for putting a weak defender on him.

As for Windler and Sexton, I could talk about them ... but you know what? That would be counter-purpose because Isaac isn't them.

The only way we as fans can know whether Okoro can develop is to see him get the chance and either make progress, stay the same, or regress. And then see him get more chances. We're not working with him, we're not watching him in practice. We have no other way to judge his progress.

But with Garland out, he'll get at least get a slightly expanded role.

I wish you would look at the numbers for Isaac and this team because you should know full well there is no magic number of shooters that makes our lineups work well. We're not chock full of lengthy 2-way players, everything we do has tradeoffs.
I feel like the Cavs kind of surrendered their opportunity to properly take time to develop their guys when they traded for Mitchell.

This is a good time to get some development in

JujitsuFlip · Post #16 » by **JujitsuFlip** » Tue Dec 19, 2023 3:25 am

ijspeelman wrote:
JujitsuFlip wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
It often comes down to time, drive, opportunity and whether we're willing to grant it. You're right that JBB loves Isaac for his defense and hustle and that's bought him a lot of time on the floor, but very little rope to try anything outside his strengths.

So, it's not like he needs to be able to split a double team to run a P&R, he's supposed to pass the ball to the guy who isn't doubled. As for his handle, it's fine for basic plays and at least we'd be trying to make teams pay for putting a weak defender on him.

As for Windler and Sexton, I could talk about them ... but you know what? That would be counter-purpose because Isaac isn't them.

The only way we as fans can know whether Okoro can develop is to see him get the chance and either make progress, stay the same, or regress. And then see him get more chances. We're not working with him, we're not watching him in practice. We have no other way to judge his progress.

But with Garland out, he'll get at least get a slightly expanded role.

I wish you would look at the numbers for Isaac and this team because you should know full well there is no magic number of shooters that makes our lineups work well. We're not chock full of lengthy 2-way players, everything we do has tradeoffs.
I feel like the Cavs kind of surrendered their opportunity to properly take time to develop their guys when they traded for Mitchell.

This is a good time to get some development in

For sure, I thought Bates would get some burn in that Rockets game, no dice.

Post #17 » by **ijspeelman** » Tue Dec 19, 2023 3:54 am

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
The problem with JBB always coaching for his job, is he has no room to let players play through mistakes and develop on the floor; but at least there's an opportunity here for Issac to try to show he's made some progress.

Still, let me know if someone notices Isaac dribbling on the perimeter and rather than making a quick decision, instead calls for a screen and tries to run a P&R or P&P like any other wing expected to try to create offense would do.

Having players who will actually do what the coach wants is very valuable, but it should be a two way street where the coach doesn't just squeeze only the known good things from the player in the regular season.

I know you're an Okoro fan, but we're in his 4th season and Okoro is about to surpass Sexton in terms of receiving unearned minutes. The idea that JBB has been unfair to him is, almost entirely, backwards. JBB loves defense as has tried to force the issue with Okoro every season Okoro has been on the roster. JBB rolled out some of the most absurd zero-spacing lineups ever seen last season.

Okoro doesn't call for a pick, because he can't split a double, his handle is suspect, and the opposing team would just go under it (unless it was Niang on a good night). Okoro is a solid defensive specialist as a 2 guard, but he gives up too much size at SF, and he needs to be on the court with three other shooters. Also, we don't really have the luxury of burning through what could be Mitchell's last season here in an attempt to further develop a player who's already gotten a lot of playing time over three+ seasons.

I like and respect you Jon, but there are hard limits to player development. Windler just got cut in favor of Grandpa Gibson, Stevens is getting minimal run in Boston (despite them being very thin in the frontcourt), and Sexton is being reported as being *available* in trade talks for the 3rd time in 14 months after signing with the Jazz. For every successful reclamation project a tanking team takes on, there are at least ten guys who end up as deep bench players or wash out of the league altogether.

It often comes down to time, drive, opportunity and whether we're willing to grant it. You're right that JBB loves Isaac for his defense and hustle and that's bought him a lot of time on the floor, but very little rope to try anything outside his strengths.

So, it's not like he needs to be able to split a double team to run a P&R, he's supposed to pass the ball to the guy who isn't doubled. As for his handle, it's fine for basic plays and at least we'd be trying to make teams pay for putting a weak defender on him.

As for Windler and Sexton, I could talk about them ... but you know what? That would be counter-purpose because Isaac isn't them.

The only way we as fans can know whether Okoro can develop is to see him get the chance and either make progress, stay the same, or regress. And then see him get more chances. We're not working with him, we're not watching him in practice. We have no other way to judge his progress.

But with Garland out, he'll get at least get a slightly expanded role.

I wish you would look at the numbers for Isaac and this team because you should know full well there is no magic number of shooters that makes our lineups work well. We're not chock full of lengthy 2-way players, everything we do has tradeoffs.

https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&GameEventID=55&GameID=0022300349&Season=2023-24&flag=1&title=Okoro%201%27%20Driving%20Layup%20(4%20PTS)%20(Allen%202%20AST)

https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&GameEventID=285&GameID=0022300349&Season=2023-24&flag=1&title=Okoro%201%27%20Driving%20Layup%20(6%20PTS)%20(Wade%201%20AST)

https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&GameEventID=640&GameID=0022300349&Season=2023-24&flag=1&title=Strus%202%27%20Cutting%20Layup%20Shot%20(9%20PTS)%20(Okoro%203%20AST)

https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&GameEventID=737&GameID=0022300349&Season=2023-24&flag=1&title=Allen%201%27%20Alley%20Oop%20Dunk%20(10%20PTS)%20(Okoro%204%20AST)

https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&GameEventID=747&GameID=0022300349&Season=2023-24&flag=1&title=Strus%201%27%20Cutting%20Layup%20Shot%20(15%20PTS)%20(Okoro%205%20AST)

https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&GameEventID=764&GameID=0022300349&Season=2023-24&flag=1&title=Merrill%2025%27%203PT%20Running%20Jump%20Shot%20(19%20PTS)%20(Mitchell%206%20AST)

8-)

JonFromVA · Post #18 » by **JonFromVA** » Tue Dec 19, 2023 4:24 pm

JujitsuFlip wrote:
ijspeelman wrote:
JujitsuFlip wrote:I feel like the Cavs kind of surrendered their opportunity to properly take time to develop their guys when they traded for Mitchell.

This is a good time to get some development in
For sure, I thought Bates would get some burn in that Rockets game, no dice.

I am happy to see Merrill getting some run, so, there's that.