Game 54: Magic @ Cavs 2/22/2024

[ijspeelman]

[JujitsuFlip]

Mitchell out with an illness, so we'll see how that goes.

[ijspeelman]

[ijspeelman]

Mitchell out with an illness, so we'll see how that goes.

We've relying on him a ton this last month and a half so this'll be an indicator of how we can do w/out him

[ijspeelman]

I always forget how much Mo Wagner gets on my nerves lol. Constant flopping, moving screens, and yelling lmao

[ijspeelman]

Defense has mostly worked. We are leaving the weak side corner mainly wide open to cover any Paolo PNRs and its a little scary bc they are making most of them

I'll be honest the Magic are using so many moving screens is exhausting lol. Its more creative than just in the PNR (tho they are doing that too), its been a lot of damage off-ball / on pin-downs... but they are moving screens

First and only moving screen call was on Jarrett Allen of course

Offense is looking lackluster. We are barely getting in the paint and when we do they are blocking our angles for kick-outs while simultaneously clogging the paint

[ijspeelman]

Yeah, wasn't a great one

Offense was pretty flat and way too many turnovers. If we win convincingly tomorrow, I'll chalk this one up to the long break lol

[JujitsuFlip]

I mean, that's tough. Typically if you shoot 45% from deep, you win... Unless the other team shoots 56% from there. Speelman did mention Cavs were leaving the corner open, so i assume a lot of the makes were from there.

Also, it's poor luck to see the Magic so healthy and Cavs' missing their top guy. Mitchell needs to start taking a multivitamin or at least vitamin C (+ vitamin K). This is at least the 2nd time he's gotten sick this season but potetinally the 3rd.

[JonFromVA]

I think we pay a price in games like this because JBB has put CPJ on the shelf for so long and he lacks the guts to even try him in the second half. Re-inserting Merrill was purely desperation.

I think he lacks a feel for what makes his offense actually work beyond individual brilliance. Where's the motion? Where are the screens to get our shooters open looks? Where's the ball movement?

[JujitsuFlip]

I think we pay a price in games like this because JBB has put CPJ on the shelf for so long and he lacks the guts to even try him in the second half. Re-inserting Merrill was purely desperation.

I think he lacks a feel for what makes his offense actually work beyond individual brilliance. Where's the motion? Where are the screens to get our shooters open looks? Where's the ball movement?

That is honestly my biggest concern with Jb in the postseason. It's not like he didn't try different lineups and stuff but he just seemed so lost on what levers to pull to get the team going.

It's like that dude on the GB always says, our gameplan from a scheme perspective was essentially the same for all 5 games, when it obviously didn't work for the final 3. That is what makes postseason basketball so difficult, it is all about adjustments. If ya make it to a game 7, what worked in game 1 from a scheme or rotation perspective is probably a complete 180 by the time ya get to game 7.

Jb makes adjustments they're just usually the wrong one or a lateral move at best. Guy is a good regular season coach though when most times are tired from schedule/travel or just deploying a shell of what their actual tactics are. Once the going gets tough, the Cavs get going (out of the postseason).

April will tell if he has learned anything or not.

[toooskies]

Everyone just seemed a little sleepy. Not aggressive enough.

Joe Ingles is what Georges Niang wishes he was.

We only took 22 threes, which is not enough.

LeVert played good D but the offense really didn't work with him out there tonight.

Orlando has really good depth. You can definitely see on any given day their bench guys are as good or better than several of their starters. That'll hurt them in the playoffs and we'll do better against them in a playoff atmosphere where we can play Mobley and Allen 35+ minutes and have TT back.

Mobley had some really good possessions in the first half and I feel like we just kind of abandoned those. 14/8/6/2/2 line from him.

We achieved our goal of shutting down Paolo and Franz at the expense of letting them win otherwise.

[JujitsuFlip]

Joe Ingles is what Georges Niang wishes he was.

[jbk1234]

I think we pay a price in games like this because JBB has put CPJ on the shelf for so long and he lacks the guts to even try him in the second half. Re-inserting Merrill was purely desperation.

I think he lacks a feel for what makes his offense actually work beyond individual brilliance. Where's the motion? Where are the screens to get our shooters open looks? Where's the ball movement?

The other team has a say in what you're able to do effectively. The Magic are 4 deep with good players in the frontcourt so they were perfectly comfortable telling their perimeter defenders to not help. That impacted our ability to get guys open from 3.

They also have good perimeter defenders who turned over our secondary ball handlers at a pretty high rate when we tried to run that motion offense. It's hard to play at a faster pace when you're struggling to get stops and rebound especially against a team that is making a point to get back.

Finally, they were picking up Garland at 3/4 court to slow us down, and there, maybe JBB could've had someone else get the ball over.

What really jumped out is that the Cavs once again find themselves without a reliable backup center. Mobley is passable to good against most backup 5s, but he's not it against guys like Mo Wagner and Hartenstein. Niang was awful (-20), soft even. Wade was -9. LeVert was -10. With LeVert in particular, I'm increasingly coming around to the idea that in addition to his own internal inconsistencies, his game is dependent upon the opposing team's personnel and officiating. If he's not able to see over the defender(s), his ability to serve as a secondary ball handler is severely limited.

[toooskies]

I think we pay a price in games like this because JBB has put CPJ on the shelf for so long and he lacks the guts to even try him in the second half. Re-inserting Merrill was purely desperation.

I think he lacks a feel for what makes his offense actually work beyond individual brilliance. Where's the motion? Where are the screens to get our shooters open looks? Where's the ball movement?

The other team has a say in what you're able to do effectively. The Magic are 4 deep with good players in the frontcourt so they were perfectly comfortable telling their perimeter defenders to not help. That impacted our ability to get guys open from 3.

They also have good perimeter defenders who turned over our secondary ball handlers at a pretty high rate when we tried to run that motion offense. It's hard to play at a faster pace when you're struggling to get stops and rebound especially against a team that is making a point to get back.

Finally, they were picking up Garland at 3/4 court to slow us down, and there, maybe JBB could've had someone else get the ball over.

What really jumped out is that the Cavs once again find themselves without a reliable backup center. Mobley is passable to good against most backup 5s, but he's not it against guys like Mo Wagner and Hartenstein. Niang was awful (-20), soft even. Wade was -9. LeVert was -10. With LeVert in particular, I'm increasingly coming around to the idea that in addition to his own internal inconsistencies, his game is dependent upon the opposing team's personnel and officiating. If he's not able to see over the defender(s), his ability to serve as a secondary ball handler is severely limited.

Yeah, TT's suspension is a low-key big deal in this particular matchup. He's exactly the kind of guy you want playing against Mo Wagner. You can play two bigs against two bigs more of the game if Orlando is going to stick to their perimeter assignments like they did.

[JonFromVA]

I think we pay a price in games like this because JBB has put CPJ on the shelf for so long and he lacks the guts to even try him in the second half. Re-inserting Merrill was purely desperation.

I think he lacks a feel for what makes his offense actually work beyond individual brilliance. Where's the motion? Where are the screens to get our shooters open looks? Where's the ball movement?

The other team has a say in what you're able to do effectively. The Magic are 4 deep with good players in the frontcourt so they were perfectly comfortable telling their perimeter defenders to not help. That impacted our ability to get guys open from 3.

They also have good perimeter defenders who turned over our secondary ball handlers at a pretty high rate when we tried to run that motion offense. It's hard to play at a faster pace when you're struggling to get stops and rebound especially against a team that is making a point to get back.

Finally, they were picking up Garland at 3/4 court to slow us down, and there, maybe JBB could've had someone else get the ball over.

What really jumped out is that the Cavs once again find themselves without a reliable backup center. Mobley is passable to good against most backup 5s, but he's not it against guys like Mo Wagner and Hartenstein. Niang was awful (-20), soft even. Wade was -9. LeVert was -10. With LeVert in particular, I'm increasingly coming around to the idea that in addition to his own internal inconsistencies, his game is dependent upon the opposing team's personnel and officiating. If he's not able to see over the defender(s), his ability to serve as a secondary ball handler is severely limited.

Good stuff, but do you really think anyone in their front court other than perhaps Jonathan Isaac and Goga Bitadze (who didn't play) should concern us? As for their guards & wings, Suggs is good and Black is promising.

Yeah, we weren't matching their physicality, but that's becoming an excuse for losing to a team that's playing as hard or harder than we are.

The whole idea of playing a modern offense is to flood the floor with shooters and then create shots for them by finding them that little bit of space they need to get a shot off. Do we miss PED enhanced Tristan? Sure, but he's not the only player in the league who can set an effective screen and Caris LeVert isn't the guy who kept our offense humming when DG was out and Mitchell was resting... it was CPJ and JBB doesn't trust him.

For example, this lineup with:

Merrill-Strus-LeVert-Niang-Thompson was -2 pp100.

But drop the secondary ball handler Strus for a lead ball handler in CPJ:

and PorterJr.-Merrill-LeVert-Niang-Thompson was +53 pp100.

Want some more defense? No Tristan? This lineup:

PorterJr.-Strus-Okoro-Wade-Allen were +12 pp100.

At least JBB didn't play anyone 12+ minutes straight without break.

[jbk1234]

I think we pay a price in games like this because JBB has put CPJ on the shelf for so long and he lacks the guts to even try him in the second half. Re-inserting Merrill was purely desperation.

I think he lacks a feel for what makes his offense actually work beyond individual brilliance. Where's the motion? Where are the screens to get our shooters open looks? Where's the ball movement?

The other team has a say in what you're able to do effectively. The Magic are 4 deep with good players in the frontcourt so they were perfectly comfortable telling their perimeter defenders to not help. That impacted our ability to get guys open from 3.

They also have good perimeter defenders who turned over our secondary ball handlers at a pretty high rate when we tried to run that motion offense. It's hard to play at a faster pace when you're struggling to get stops and rebound especially against a team that is making a point to get back.

Finally, they were picking up Garland at 3/4 court to slow us down, and there, maybe JBB could've had someone else get the ball over.

What really jumped out is that the Cavs once again find themselves without a reliable backup center. Mobley is passable to good against most backup 5s, but he's not it against guys like Mo Wagner and Hartenstein. Niang was awful (-20), soft even. Wade was -9. LeVert was -10. With LeVert in particular, I'm increasingly coming around to the idea that in addition to his own internal inconsistencies, his game is dependent upon the opposing team's personnel and officiating. If he's not able to see over the defender(s), his ability to serve as a secondary ball handler is severely limited.

Good stuff, but do you really think anyone in their front court other than perhaps Jonathan Isaac and Goga Bitadze (who didn't play) should concern us? As for their guards & wings, Suggs is good and Black is promising.

Yeah, we weren't matching their physicality, but that's becoming an excuse for losing to a team that's playing as hard or harder than we are.

The whole idea of playing a modern offense is to flood the floor with shooters and then create shots for them by finding them that little bit of space they need to get a shot off. Do we miss PED enhanced Tristan? Sure, but he's not the only player in the league who can set an effective screen and Caris LeVert isn't the guy who kept our offense humming when DG was out and Mitchell was resting... it was CPJ and JBB doesn't trust him.

For example, this lineup with:

Merrill-Strus-LeVert-Niang-Thompson was -2 pp100.

But drop the secondary ball handler Strus for a lead ball handler in CPJ:

and PorterJr.-Merrill-LeVert-Niang-Thompson was +53 pp100.

Want some more defense? No Tristan? This lineup:

PorterJr.-Strus-Okoro-Wade-Allen were +12 pp100.

At least JBB didn't play anyone 12+ minutes straight without break.

I think we just have a fundamental difference of opinion as to how useful generic lineup data, that includes a huge chunk of minutes against bad defensive teams, is when predicting future performance against good defensive teams. This is even more the case when a lot of the data includes minutes before that player appeared on a scouting report.

This was the first game out of the break. Both teams obviously prepared for each other, came in wanting to take certain things away, and succeeded to a certain extent. With the exception of no Mitchell, this is basically what you'll see in the playoffs.

CPJ was -5 with 2 points and 0 assists in limited minutes. Merrill was -10. Now, the bench was outscored 63-24 so maybe more CPJ would've helped, but to my mind, it's equally likely that those guys are just too undersized against a good defensive team like Magic. If it wasn't for Garland taking what the defense gave him, I suspect we would've gotten run off the floor.

[JonFromVA]

The other team has a say in what you're able to do effectively. The Magic are 4 deep with good players in the frontcourt so they were perfectly comfortable telling their perimeter defenders to not help. That impacted our ability to get guys open from 3.

They also have good perimeter defenders who turned over our secondary ball handlers at a pretty high rate when we tried to run that motion offense. It's hard to play at a faster pace when you're struggling to get stops and rebound especially against a team that is making a point to get back.

Finally, they were picking up Garland at 3/4 court to slow us down, and there, maybe JBB could've had someone else get the ball over.

What really jumped out is that the Cavs once again find themselves without a reliable backup center. Mobley is passable to good against most backup 5s, but he's not it against guys like Mo Wagner and Hartenstein. Niang was awful (-20), soft even. Wade was -9. LeVert was -10. With LeVert in particular, I'm increasingly coming around to the idea that in addition to his own internal inconsistencies, his game is dependent upon the opposing team's personnel and officiating. If he's not able to see over the defender(s), his ability to serve as a secondary ball handler is severely limited.

Good stuff, but do you really think anyone in their front court other than perhaps Jonathan Isaac and Goga Bitadze (who didn't play) should concern us? As for their guards & wings, Suggs is good and Black is promising.

Yeah, we weren't matching their physicality, but that's becoming an excuse for losing to a team that's playing as hard or harder than we are.

The whole idea of playing a modern offense is to flood the floor with shooters and then create shots for them by finding them that little bit of space they need to get a shot off. Do we miss PED enhanced Tristan? Sure, but he's not the only player in the league who can set an effective screen and Caris LeVert isn't the guy who kept our offense humming when DG was out and Mitchell was resting... it was CPJ and JBB doesn't trust him.

For example, this lineup with:

Merrill-Strus-LeVert-Niang-Thompson was -2 pp100.

But drop the secondary ball handler Strus for a lead ball handler in CPJ:

and PorterJr.-Merrill-LeVert-Niang-Thompson was +53 pp100.

Want some more defense? No Tristan? This lineup:

PorterJr.-Strus-Okoro-Wade-Allen were +12 pp100.

At least JBB didn't play anyone 12+ minutes straight without break.

I think we just have a fundamental difference of opinion as to how useful generic lineup data, that includes a huge chunk of minutes against bad defensive teams, is when predicting future performance against good defensive teams. This is even more the case when a lot of the data includes minutes before that player appeared on a scouting report.

This was the first game out of the break. Both teams obviously prepared for each other, came in wanting to take certain things away, and succeeded to a certain extent. With the exception of no Mitchell, this is basically what you'll see in the playoffs.

CPJ was -5 with 2 points and 0 assists in limited minutes. Merrill was -10. Now, the bench was outscored 63-24 so maybe more CPJ would've helped, but to my mind, it's equally likely that those guys are just too undersized against a good defensive team like Magic. If it wasn't for Garland taking what the defense gave him, I suspect we would've gotten run off the floor.

The lineup data just says what's happened and suggests what might continue to happen if the coach can be bothered to play those lineups again.

You are correct, there's a chicken & the egg issue here but that's always going to be the case as long as JBB jerks his lineups and players around.

To my eye, CPJ didn't look like he did when he was playing game in and game out. Maybe it's the break, maybe it's the rust, maybe it's not being familiar with Mobley or missing Thompson ... who knows ... what I do know is if JBB had kept playing him consistently we'd get a more consistent result. That is either for better or worse, but he took one of our strengths when Garland was hurt and all but cut him out of the lineup to now dust him off?

Good luck with that.

IMO, a contributing factor to how we ended up with chaos in the playoffs .vs. the Knicks last year was that JBB prepared one way, then went another way when things started getting rough. If he wants to be able to truly coach, he has to keep his options ready to contribute or he won't have options when it matters.

[jbk1234]

Good stuff, but do you really think anyone in their front court other than perhaps Jonathan Isaac and Goga Bitadze (who didn't play) should concern us? As for their guards & wings, Suggs is good and Black is promising.

Yeah, we weren't matching their physicality, but that's becoming an excuse for losing to a team that's playing as hard or harder than we are.

The whole idea of playing a modern offense is to flood the floor with shooters and then create shots for them by finding them that little bit of space they need to get a shot off. Do we miss PED enhanced Tristan? Sure, but he's not the only player in the league who can set an effective screen and Caris LeVert isn't the guy who kept our offense humming when DG was out and Mitchell was resting... it was CPJ and JBB doesn't trust him.

For example, this lineup with:

Merrill-Strus-LeVert-Niang-Thompson was -2 pp100.

But drop the secondary ball handler Strus for a lead ball handler in CPJ:

and PorterJr.-Merrill-LeVert-Niang-Thompson was +53 pp100.

Want some more defense? No Tristan? This lineup:

PorterJr.-Strus-Okoro-Wade-Allen were +12 pp100.

At least JBB didn't play anyone 12+ minutes straight without break.

I think we just have a fundamental difference of opinion as to how useful generic lineup data, that includes a huge chunk of minutes against bad defensive teams, is when predicting future performance against good defensive teams. This is even more the case when a lot of the data includes minutes before that player appeared on a scouting report.

This was the first game out of the break. Both teams obviously prepared for each other, came in wanting to take certain things away, and succeeded to a certain extent. With the exception of no Mitchell, this is basically what you'll see in the playoffs.

CPJ was -5 with 2 points and 0 assists in limited minutes. Merrill was -10. Now, the bench was outscored 63-24 so maybe more CPJ would've helped, but to my mind, it's equally likely that those guys are just too undersized against a good defensive team like Magic. If it wasn't for Garland taking what the defense gave him, I suspect we would've gotten run off the floor.

The lineup data just says what's happened and suggests what might continue to happen if the coach can be bothered to play those lineups again.

You are correct, there's a chicken & the egg issue here but that's always going to be the case as long as JBB jerks his lineups and players around.

To my eye, CPJ didn't look like he did when he was playing game in and game out. Maybe it's the break, maybe it's the rust, maybe it's not being familiar with Mobley or missing Thompson ... who knows ... what I do know is if JBB had kept playing him consistently we'd get a more consistent result. That is either for better or worse, but he took one of our strengths when Garland was hurt and all but cut him out of the lineup to now dust him off?

Good luck with that.

IMO, a contributing factor to how we ended up with chaos in the playoffs .vs. the Knicks last year was that JBB prepared one way, then went another way when things started getting rough. If he wants to be able to truly coach, he has to keep his options ready to contribute or he won't have options when it matters.

For most teams, a bigh part of being successful in the playoffs involves being versatile enough to do what works in the moment, and that's somewhat dependent on what the other team is giving up.

When Garland brought the Cavs back in Game 4 last season, Thibs brought in McBride too cool him off and gambled on playing a man down offensively for most of the 4th quarter. It paid off.

Kyrie YOLO'd (at least) one game in 16, and if he didn't, we probably don't win a championship. There's a requisite amount of versatility, and talent, if you're going to advance.

Having said all of that, it's a good idea to keep CPJ, Merrill, et. al. engaged in case of an emergency in the postseason.

[JonFromVA]

I think we just have a fundamental difference of opinion as to how useful generic lineup data, that includes a huge chunk of minutes against bad defensive teams, is when predicting future performance against good defensive teams. This is even more the case when a lot of the data includes minutes before that player appeared on a scouting report.

This was the first game out of the break. Both teams obviously prepared for each other, came in wanting to take certain things away, and succeeded to a certain extent. With the exception of no Mitchell, this is basically what you'll see in the playoffs.

CPJ was -5 with 2 points and 0 assists in limited minutes. Merrill was -10. Now, the bench was outscored 63-24 so maybe more CPJ would've helped, but to my mind, it's equally likely that those guys are just too undersized against a good defensive team like Magic. If it wasn't for Garland taking what the defense gave him, I suspect we would've gotten run off the floor.

The lineup data just says what's happened and suggests what might continue to happen if the coach can be bothered to play those lineups again.

You are correct, there's a chicken & the egg issue here but that's always going to be the case as long as JBB jerks his lineups and players around.

To my eye, CPJ didn't look like he did when he was playing game in and game out. Maybe it's the break, maybe it's the rust, maybe it's not being familiar with Mobley or missing Thompson ... who knows ... what I do know is if JBB had kept playing him consistently we'd get a more consistent result. That is either for better or worse, but he took one of our strengths when Garland was hurt and all but cut him out of the lineup to now dust him off?

Good luck with that.

IMO, a contributing factor to how we ended up with chaos in the playoffs .vs. the Knicks last year was that JBB prepared one way, then went another way when things started getting rough. If he wants to be able to truly coach, he has to keep his options ready to contribute or he won't have options when it matters.

For most teams, a bigh part of being successful in the playoffs involves being versatile enough to do what works in the moment, and that's somewhat dependent on what the other team is giving up.

When Garland brought the Cavs back in Game 4 last season, Thibs brought in McBride too cool him off and gambled on playing a man down offensively for most of the 4th quarter. It paid off.

Kyrie YOLO'd (at least) one game in 16, and if he didn't, we probably don't win a championship. There's a requisite amount of versatility, and talent, if you're going to advance.

Having said all of that, it's a good idea to keep CPJ, Merrill, et. al. engaged in case of an emergency in the postseason.

Or better yet, start using them in those contingent situations now, but our coach would need to be able to recognize problems and potential solutions besides imploring his guys to try harder. Just feels like all the progress we made is evaporating because suddenly guys are acting like they didn't figure out how to play together.

Or congrats to Donovan for making this squad work?