Game 71: Cavs @ Heat 3/24/2024

[JujitsuFlip]

Mobley returned in this one.

[JujitsuFlip]

Cavs were blown out by nearly 40 in this one.

[jbk1234]

Not going to lie, I liked Garland and Allen coming out early and beat down ballooning the way it did. Way too many fans were way too high on the SL Champs. There's a huge difference between games against bad teams in December/January and locked in, good teams, especially good defensive teams in late March who are playing for something. Better for everyone to understand that now and not wait until we're in MSG in Game 3 to figure it out.

Also, I appreciated JBB finally acknowledging players were tired and the injuries had caught up with them.

[JujitsuFlip]

Not going to lie, I liked Garland and Allen coming out early and beat down ballooning the way it did. Way too many fans were way too high on the SL Champs. There's a huge difference between games against bad teams in December/January and locked in, good teams, especially good defensive teams in late March who are playing for something. Better for everyone to understand that now and not wait until we're in MSG in Game 3 to figure it out.

Also, I appreciated JBB finally acknowledging players were tired and the injuries had caught up with them.

I don't think this game makes the point you think it makes.

My interpretation of what Jon said was not that Merrill, Bates, CPJ, and whoever else can beat a playoff team by themselves.

The point he was trying to make, i think, which i agree with is... These guys should be tried in the rotation, with our other starters/rotation players so they can build chemistry and carve out a role. So THEN we don't get to game 3 in MSG and have to find someone other than the core4, Strus, and LeVert who are able to play meaningful minutes.

There are probably only gonna be enough playoff minutes for one of Niang/Wade/Morris (if he makes the team). I assume it will be Niang but i personally would go with Morris.

Probably situationally can only play one of Merrill, CPJ, and TJ (if he ever returns this season). I assume if he needs shooting it's Merrill but I doubt any of these guys play a meaningful role due to their stature and TJ bc of his health.

If he plays a back-up 5 it will be TT because Jones will see nothing other than garbage minutes like Rolo and Ed Davis before him. Even so, Mobley probably eats most/all of these minutes in the playoffs.

It is wild to have every single bench player capable of playing yet outside of LeVert and Okoro there's no guarantee anyone else will see consistent playoff minutes and even then if Strus is out one of them become a starter.

[jbk1234]

Not going to lie, I liked Garland and Allen coming out early and beat down ballooning the way it did. Way too many fans were way too high on the SL Champs. There's a huge difference between games against bad teams in December/January and locked in, good teams, especially good defensive teams in late March who are playing for something. Better for everyone to understand that now and not wait until we're in MSG in Game 3 to figure it out.

Also, I appreciated JBB finally acknowledging players were tired and the injuries had caught up with them.

I don't think this game makes the point you think it makes.

My interpretation of what Jon said was not that Merrill, Bates, CPJ, and whoever else can beat a playoff team by themselves.

The point he was trying to make, i think, which i agree with is... These guys should be tried in the rotation, with our other starters/rotation players so they can build chemistry and carve out a role. So THEN we don't get to game 3 in MSG and have to find someone other than the core4, Strus, and LeVert who are able to play meaningful minutes.

There are probably only gonna be enough playoff minutes for one of Niang/Wade/Morris (if he makes the team). I assume it will be Niang but i personally would go with Morris.

Probably situationally can only play one of Merrill, CPJ, and TJ (if he ever returns this season). I assume if he needs shooting it's Merrill but I doubt any of these guys play a meaningful role due to their stature and TJ bc of his health.

If he plays a back-up 5 it will be TT because Jones will see nothing other than garbage minutes like Rolo and Ed Davis before him. Even so, Mobley probably eats most/all of these minutes in the playoffs.

It is wild to have every single bench player capable of playing yet outside of LeVert and Okoro there's no guarantee anyone else will see consistent playoff minutes and even then if Strus is out one of them become a starter.

I wasn't talking about Jon. Over at RCF, a pretty substantial group of fans managed to convince themselves that Garland sucks now and we'd be better with CPJ or LeVert running the offense. The fact is that substantial pressure on the ball substantially effects what you're trying to do and we weren't seeing it during our Dec/January run. Now that we are, Garland is not only the best option, but he's really the only option in terms of getting into an offense without turning it over every other trip.

Mobley can change my mind between now and the playoffs, but I think whether he starts or not should be matchup dependent. I'm still high on him but a lot of the hoped-for growth and development didn't happen due to him missing 2/3 of the season with injuries. If Tatum or Giannis aren't in the opposing lineup, and Wade is healthy, the Cavs should consider starting Wade.

TT and Morris should need regular season minutes to play themselves into shape in case they're needed as emerge options, but Mobley/Niang as the backup frontcourt should be strongly considered with Morris as a possible substitute for Niang.

[JonFromVA]

Not going to lie, I liked Garland and Allen coming out early and beat down ballooning the way it did. Way too many fans were way too high on the SL Champs. There's a huge difference between games against bad teams in December/January and locked in, good teams, especially good defensive teams in late March who are playing for something. Better for everyone to understand that now and not wait until we're in MSG in Game 3 to figure it out.

Also, I appreciated JBB finally acknowledging players were tired and the injuries had caught up with them.

I don't think this game makes the point you think it makes.

My interpretation of what Jon said was not that Merrill, Bates, CPJ, and whoever else can beat a playoff team by themselves.

The point he was trying to make, i think, which i agree with is... These guys should be tried in the rotation, with our other starters/rotation players so they can build chemistry and carve out a role. So THEN we don't get to game 3 in MSG and have to find someone other than the core4, Strus, and LeVert who are able to play meaningful minutes.

There are probably only gonna be enough playoff minutes for one of Niang/Wade/Morris (if he makes the team). I assume it will be Niang but i personally would go with Morris.

Probably situationally can only play one of Merrill, CPJ, and TJ (if he ever returns this season). I assume if he needs shooting it's Merrill but I doubt any of these guys play a meaningful role due to their stature and TJ bc of his health.

If he plays a back-up 5 it will be TT because Jones will see nothing other than garbage minutes like Rolo and Ed Davis before him. Even so, Mobley probably eats most/all of these minutes in the playoffs.

It is wild to have every single bench player capable of playing yet outside of LeVert and Okoro there's no guarantee anyone else will see consistent playoff minutes and even then if Strus is out one of them become a starter.

I wasn't talking about Jon. Over at RCF, a pretty substantial group of fans managed to convince themselves that Garland sucks now and we'd be better with CPJ or LeVert running the offense. The fact is that substantial pressure on the ball substantially effects what you're trying to do and we weren't seeing it during our Dec/January run. Now that we are, Garland is not only the best option, but he's really the only option in terms of getting into an offense without turning it over every other trip.

Mobley can change my mind between now and the playoffs, but I think whether he starts or not should be matchup dependent. I'm still high on him but a lot of the hoped-for growth and development didn't happen due to him missing 2/3 of the season with injuries. If Tatum or Giannis aren't in the opposing lineup, and Wade is healthy, the Cavs should consider starting Wade.

TT and Morris should need regular season minutes to play themselves into shape in case they're needed as emerge options, but Mobley/Niang as the backup frontcourt should be strongly considered with Morris as a possible substitute for Niang.

I don't want to try to address other people's thoughts on RCF en mass, but one of my criticisms of Bickerstaff is the inconsistent minutes he's giving a player like Porter Jr who's already shown he can help us win games.

So for instance, if Craig has got to be the guy who helps move the offense when Darius is getting trapped and Caris is having one of his bad games, then we'd better play him with DG (and others) so they can build some chemistry. A game like this doesn't prove anything, it just shows that prayers are rarely answered.

[jbk1234]

I don't think this game makes the point you think it makes.

My interpretation of what Jon said was not that Merrill, Bates, CPJ, and whoever else can beat a playoff team by themselves.

The point he was trying to make, i think, which i agree with is... These guys should be tried in the rotation, with our other starters/rotation players so they can build chemistry and carve out a role. So THEN we don't get to game 3 in MSG and have to find someone other than the core4, Strus, and LeVert who are able to play meaningful minutes.

There are probably only gonna be enough playoff minutes for one of Niang/Wade/Morris (if he makes the team). I assume it will be Niang but i personally would go with Morris.

Probably situationally can only play one of Merrill, CPJ, and TJ (if he ever returns this season). I assume if he needs shooting it's Merrill but I doubt any of these guys play a meaningful role due to their stature and TJ bc of his health.

If he plays a back-up 5 it will be TT because Jones will see nothing other than garbage minutes like Rolo and Ed Davis before him. Even so, Mobley probably eats most/all of these minutes in the playoffs.

It is wild to have every single bench player capable of playing yet outside of LeVert and Okoro there's no guarantee anyone else will see consistent playoff minutes and even then if Strus is out one of them become a starter.

I wasn't talking about Jon. Over at RCF, a pretty substantial group of fans managed to convince themselves that Garland sucks now and we'd be better with CPJ or LeVert running the offense. The fact is that substantial pressure on the ball substantially effects what you're trying to do and we weren't seeing it during our Dec/January run. Now that we are, Garland is not only the best option, but he's really the only option in terms of getting into an offense without turning it over every other trip.

Mobley can change my mind between now and the playoffs, but I think whether he starts or not should be matchup dependent. I'm still high on him but a lot of the hoped-for growth and development didn't happen due to him missing 2/3 of the season with injuries. If Tatum or Giannis aren't in the opposing lineup, and Wade is healthy, the Cavs should consider starting Wade.

TT and Morris should need regular season minutes to play themselves into shape in case they're needed as emerge options, but Mobley/Niang as the backup frontcourt should be strongly considered with Morris as a possible substitute for Niang.

I don't want to try to address other people's thoughts on RCF en mass, but one of my criticisms of Bickerstaff is the inconsistent minutes he's giving a player like Porter Jr who's already shown he can help us win games.

So for instance, if Craig has got to be the guy who helps move the offense when Darius is getting trapped and Caris is having one of his bad games, then we'd better play him with DG (and others) so they can build some chemistry. A game like this doesn't prove anything, it just shows that prayers are rarely answered.

Well, what happened with Rubio happened and Ty Jerome is apparently filling Windler's role this season. So there's only so many minutes CPJ can fill with Garland if you're going to rest Garland. Also, Garland and CPJ on the court at the same time means your back court is giving up a lot of size. At the end of the day, CPJ really strikes me as a guy who is matchup dependent. It's two games in a row now where neither LeVert nor CPJ have shown themselves to be up to the challenge of running an offense against good defensive teams playing with playoff intensity when Garland has sat down.

The reality is the Cavs aren't built for that challenge with both Mitchell and Strus out. Had Mobley stayed healthy this year, and had he developed more on the offensive end, maybe we'd have a shot, but he didn't.

I'd like Mobley and Okoro to get some second unit minutes together to help Okoro get the runout buckets that seem to help his confidence. Without those 6-8 ppg, his confidence seems to be at a nadir and his half-court game has been downright brutal. He's not going to get those with Niang and Morris. Either we're not getting stops or we need him to help secure the defensive rebound.

[JujitsuFlip]

Not going to lie, I liked Garland and Allen coming out early and beat down ballooning the way it did. Way too many fans were way too high on the SL Champs. There's a huge difference between games against bad teams in December/January and locked in, good teams, especially good defensive teams in late March who are playing for something. Better for everyone to understand that now and not wait until we're in MSG in Game 3 to figure it out.

Also, I appreciated JBB finally acknowledging players were tired and the injuries had caught up with them.

I don't think this game makes the point you think it makes.

My interpretation of what Jon said was not that Merrill, Bates, CPJ, and whoever else can beat a playoff team by themselves.

The point he was trying to make, i think, which i agree with is... These guys should be tried in the rotation, with our other starters/rotation players so they can build chemistry and carve out a role. So THEN we don't get to game 3 in MSG and have to find someone other than the core4, Strus, and LeVert who are able to play meaningful minutes.

There are probably only gonna be enough playoff minutes for one of Niang/Wade/Morris (if he makes the team). I assume it will be Niang but i personally would go with Morris.

Probably situationally can only play one of Merrill, CPJ, and TJ (if he ever returns this season). I assume if he needs shooting it's Merrill but I doubt any of these guys play a meaningful role due to their stature and TJ bc of his health.

If he plays a back-up 5 it will be TT because Jones will see nothing other than garbage minutes like Rolo and Ed Davis before him. Even so, Mobley probably eats most/all of these minutes in the playoffs.

It is wild to have every single bench player capable of playing yet outside of LeVert and Okoro there's no guarantee anyone else will see consistent playoff minutes and even then if Strus is out one of them become a starter.

I wasn't talking about Jon. Over at RCF, a pretty substantial group of fans managed to convince themselves that Garland sucks now and we'd be better with CPJ or LeVert running the offense. The fact is that substantial pressure on the ball substantially effects what you're trying to do and we weren't seeing it during our Dec/January run. Now that we are, Garland is not only the best option, but he's really the only option in terms of getting into an offense without turning it over every other trip.

Mobley can change my mind between now and the playoffs, but I think whether he starts or not should be matchup dependent. I'm still high on him but a lot of the hoped-for growth and development didn't happen due to him missing 2/3 of the season with injuries. If Tatum or Giannis aren't in the opposing lineup, and Wade is healthy, the Cavs should consider starting Wade.

TT and Morris should need regular season minutes to play themselves into shape in case they're needed as emerge options, but Mobley/Niang as the backup frontcourt should be strongly considered with Morris as a possible substitute for Niang.

There's a lot to unpack here, I'll just say for starters i would take anything you see on RCF with a major grain of salt. There are some really intelligent posters over there but the vast majority is just really loud groupthink, regardless of if what is being pushed is flawed.

Sure ball pressure makes you get into the offense late or start sets MUCH further out than is ideal but like i said we have been seeing this for years. If Jb doesn't know how to address it, I'm not going to expect any single guy or group of guys to overcome it either, it is his job to strategize around that, if after 5 seasons he's unable to do that, probably time to move on.

Also, during the 18-2 streak we were playing some really awful teams. As well, Mitchell has far superior talent overall than Garland so he can do a little more with the rock, even if he's not quite the overall pass first facilitator.

It was Mobley's first game back so I have no real opinion on him starting vs not. If he was willing to come off the bench we could finally fill the void at backup 5 that has been there since Allen was acquired. However, I assume Mobley is about to be handed a huge lump sum of money this summer to be the starting PF for the foreseeable future. Some growth and maturity would be nice, agreed.

We'll see what happens with the rotation come next month in the playoffs, I assume it will be a lot like the previous 2 post seasons and Jb is going to lean heavily on the few guys he trusts, for better or worse.

[JonFromVA]

I wasn't talking about Jon. Over at RCF, a pretty substantial group of fans managed to convince themselves that Garland sucks now and we'd be better with CPJ or LeVert running the offense. The fact is that substantial pressure on the ball substantially effects what you're trying to do and we weren't seeing it during our Dec/January run. Now that we are, Garland is not only the best option, but he's really the only option in terms of getting into an offense without turning it over every other trip.

Mobley can change my mind between now and the playoffs, but I think whether he starts or not should be matchup dependent. I'm still high on him but a lot of the hoped-for growth and development didn't happen due to him missing 2/3 of the season with injuries. If Tatum or Giannis aren't in the opposing lineup, and Wade is healthy, the Cavs should consider starting Wade.

TT and Morris should need regular season minutes to play themselves into shape in case they're needed as emerge options, but Mobley/Niang as the backup frontcourt should be strongly considered with Morris as a possible substitute for Niang.

I don't want to try to address other people's thoughts on RCF en mass, but one of my criticisms of Bickerstaff is the inconsistent minutes he's giving a player like Porter Jr who's already shown he can help us win games.

So for instance, if Craig has got to be the guy who helps move the offense when Darius is getting trapped and Caris is having one of his bad games, then we'd better play him with DG (and others) so they can build some chemistry. A game like this doesn't prove anything, it just shows that prayers are rarely answered.

Well, what happened with Rubio happened and Ty Jerome is apparently filling Windler's role this season. So there's only so many minutes CPJ can fill with Garland if you're going to rest Garland. Also, Garland and CPJ on the court at the same time means your back court is giving up a lot of size. At the end of the day, CPJ really strikes me as a guy who is matchup dependent. It's two games in a row now where neither LeVert nor CPJ have shown themselves to be up to the challenge of running an offense against good defensive teams playing with playoff intensity when Garland has sat down.

The reality is the Cavs aren't built for that challenge with both Mitchell and Strus out. Had Mobley stayed healthy this year, and had he developed more on the offensive end, maybe we'd have a shot, but he didn't.

I'd like Mobley and Okoro to get some second unit minutes together to help Okoro get the runout buckets that seem to help his confidence. Without those 6-8 ppg, his confidence seems to be at a nadir and his half-court game has been downright brutal. He's not going to get those with Niang and Morris. Either we're not getting stops or we need him to help secure the defensive rebound.

No matter how you slice it, you want to build familiarity, chemistry, and confidence whenever possible.

The reality is we saw what was possible when Bickerstaff had no choice but to play his deep bench.

[jbk1234]

I don't want to try to address other people's thoughts on RCF en mass, but one of my criticisms of Bickerstaff is the inconsistent minutes he's giving a player like Porter Jr who's already shown he can help us win games.

So for instance, if Craig has got to be the guy who helps move the offense when Darius is getting trapped and Caris is having one of his bad games, then we'd better play him with DG (and others) so they can build some chemistry. A game like this doesn't prove anything, it just shows that prayers are rarely answered.

Well, what happened with Rubio happened and Ty Jerome is apparently filling Windler's role this season. So there's only so many minutes CPJ can fill with Garland if you're going to rest Garland. Also, Garland and CPJ on the court at the same time means your back court is giving up a lot of size. At the end of the day, CPJ really strikes me as a guy who is matchup dependent. It's two games in a row now where neither LeVert nor CPJ have shown themselves to be up to the challenge of running an offense against good defensive teams playing with playoff intensity when Garland has sat down.

The reality is the Cavs aren't built for that challenge with both Mitchell and Strus out. Had Mobley stayed healthy this year, and had he developed more on the offensive end, maybe we'd have a shot, but he didn't.

I'd like Mobley and Okoro to get some second unit minutes together to help Okoro get the runout buckets that seem to help his confidence. Without those 6-8 ppg, his confidence seems to be at a nadir and his half-court game has been downright brutal. He's not going to get those with Niang and Morris. Either we're not getting stops or we need him to help secure the defensive rebound.

No matter how you slice it, you want to build familiarity, chemistry, and confidence whenever possible.

The reality is we saw what was possible when Bickerstaff had no choice but to play his deep bench.

You'd love to do all those things, but it really starts with the core 4 plus Strus all healthy and on the court together. While I haven't broken it down, I'd be surprised if that's happened in even 20% of the games this season? Now Wade is injured, again.

I mean Niang just isn't a starter. Morris was on the waiver wire two weeks ago. I'm not a JBB apologist, but we just don't have the available personnel to compete against good defensive playoff teams and I'm not sure any amount of run is going to change that. When Allen and Garland rest, we look like a 16 seed playing a No. 1 seed.

[JonFromVA]

Well, what happened with Rubio happened and Ty Jerome is apparently filling Windler's role this season. So there's only so many minutes CPJ can fill with Garland if you're going to rest Garland. Also, Garland and CPJ on the court at the same time means your back court is giving up a lot of size. At the end of the day, CPJ really strikes me as a guy who is matchup dependent. It's two games in a row now where neither LeVert nor CPJ have shown themselves to be up to the challenge of running an offense against good defensive teams playing with playoff intensity when Garland has sat down.

The reality is the Cavs aren't built for that challenge with both Mitchell and Strus out. Had Mobley stayed healthy this year, and had he developed more on the offensive end, maybe we'd have a shot, but he didn't.

I'd like Mobley and Okoro to get some second unit minutes together to help Okoro get the runout buckets that seem to help his confidence. Without those 6-8 ppg, his confidence seems to be at a nadir and his half-court game has been downright brutal. He's not going to get those with Niang and Morris. Either we're not getting stops or we need him to help secure the defensive rebound.

No matter how you slice it, you want to build familiarity, chemistry, and confidence whenever possible.

The reality is we saw what was possible when Bickerstaff had no choice but to play his deep bench.

You'd love to do all those things, but it really starts with the core 4 plus Strus all healthy and on the court together. While I haven't broken it down, I'd be surprised if that's happened in even 20% of the games this season? Now Wade is injured, again.

I mean Niang just isn't a starter. Morris was on the waiver wire two weeks ago. I'm not a JBB apologist, but we just don't have the available personnel to compete against good defensive playoff teams and I'm not sure any amount of run is going to change that. When Allen and Garland rest, we look like a 16 seed playing a No. 1 seed.

Well, consider Craig's best lineup consisted of himself with Merrill-LeVert-Niang-Thompson who are currently ALL available.

So Bickerstaff could have revisited that lineup.

Craig and Darius have not played much together and it has not gone particularly well, but at least giving them more minutes might help them learn how to play off each other? Maybe invest some practice time? It's not rocket science.

Meanwhile Marcus Morris doesn't even know what his new teammates are doing, and yet JBB inserts him right in and starts giving him a major chunk of rotation minutes.