Game 77: Cavs @ Suns 4/3/2024

[JujitsuFlip]

I think JBB gave the starters extended run because:
- the team has two days off to rest up
- the bench groups stunk and the adjustment was play the starters

The starting group was positive on the night while anytime two of the starters were out, we gave up runs. All of LeVert, Niang, Merrill, and Morris were huge liabilities when they were on the floor-- all of them nearly a negative point per minute in plus-minus. We couldn't guard Booker or Durant when our bench guys were out there. We miss Okoro.

I maintain that Niang is fine as a deeper bench guy but if his shot isn't falling, he's a big liability. Even if he does a good job on his man, he's not a good helper. We miss Wade.

LeVert was just bad.

I actually thought the starters played well. Mitchell and Garland made it a point to drive to the hoop and they looked better getting to the rim than they have lately.

This is not the answer...

So the only guys we can play are our starters? Yeah I've read this book, I've seen this movie.

Jb has to go if this is the answer at the end of every season, smh I'm sick of it. I thought we were supposed to be this team stacked with depth. Yeah now 5 games from the playoffs our answer is play the starting 5, 48 minutes per game or we lose, wonderful.

I think our bench gets pretty overrated by our fan base because they were able to beat some bad teams during the soft part of our schedule, before some of them even appeared on scouting reports, and opposing defenses were primarily focused on Mitchell. Also, you can get some wins by out-hustling teams in the middle of the season, but playoff teams start locking in come March.

Bob Bol shoots 45% from 3, offers rim protection, makes $2M per, and gave the Suns great minutes last night. The Suns got O'Neale for next to nothing at the deadline, went 4 first 5 from 3 and played good enough defense to stay on the floor.

If we're being honest, we lack two-way players on our bench. In theory, we should be able to play Wade, LeVert, and Okoro against most teams in the NBA, but they've shown a real inability to put points on board against solid defenses. On top of that Wade, and increasingly Okoro, can't stay healthy. Conversely, Niang and the SL Champs really can't defend at a playoff level.

In theory, you should be able to balance offense/defense with bench rotations, but Merrill, and occasionally Wade/Okoro, are the only ones who are good enough on one end to justify their limitations on the other. I feel like we're going to have guys like Niang and LeVert defaulting into a playoff rotation, but on a true contending roster, they wouldn't get meaningful minutes.

That's not on JBB, that's on Altman. He signed them last summer.

Jb and Koby can both go for all i care but that would require Dan Gilbert stepping in because Usher surely doesn't have enough pull to make that happen.

We'll see how the next few weeks go but i fully believe a change needs to be made, the team can't continue down this treadmill path.

[toooskies]

I think JBB gave the starters extended run because:
- the team has two days off to rest up
- the bench groups stunk and the adjustment was play the starters

The starting group was positive on the night while anytime two of the starters were out, we gave up runs. All of LeVert, Niang, Merrill, and Morris were huge liabilities when they were on the floor-- all of them nearly a negative point per minute in plus-minus. We couldn't guard Booker or Durant when our bench guys were out there. We miss Okoro.

I maintain that Niang is fine as a deeper bench guy but if his shot isn't falling, he's a big liability. Even if he does a good job on his man, he's not a good helper. We miss Wade.

LeVert was just bad.

I actually thought the starters played well. Mitchell and Garland made it a point to drive to the hoop and they looked better getting to the rim than they have lately.

This is not the answer...

So the only guys we can play are our starters? Yeah I've read this book, I've seen this movie.

Jb has to go if this is the answer at the end of every season, smh I'm sick of it. I thought we were supposed to be this team stacked with depth. Yeah now 5 games from the playoffs our answer is play the starting 5, 48 minutes per game or we lose, wonderful.

I think our bench gets pretty overrated by our fan base because they were able to beat some bad teams during the soft part of our schedule, before some of them even appeared on scouting reports, and opposing defenses were primarily focused on Mitchell. Also, you can get some wins by out-hustling teams in the middle of the season, but playoff teams start locking in come March.

Bob Bol shoots 45% from 3, offers rim protection, makes $2M per, and gave the Suns great minutes last night. The Suns got O'Neale for next to nothing at the deadline, went 4 first 5 from 3 and played good enough defense to stay on the floor.

If we're being honest, we lack two-way players on our bench. In theory, we should be able to play Wade, LeVert, and Okoro against most teams in the NBA, but they've shown a real inability to put points on board against solid defenses. On top of that Wade, and increasingly Okoro, can't stay healthy. Conversely, Niang and the SL Champs really can't defend at a playoff level.

In theory, you should be able to balance offense/defense with bench rotations, but Merrill, and occasionally Wade/Okoro, are the only ones who are good enough on one end to justify their limitations on the other. I feel like we're going to have guys like Niang and LeVert defaulting into a playoff rotation, but on a true contending roster, they wouldn't get meaningful minutes.

That's not on JBB, that's on Altman. He signed them last summer.

Not sure those bench players deserved that swipe. Wade's not a scorer, but his two 20-point games this year were against BOS and NOP. Okoro's only 20 point game was against Dallas, and he has 15+ points against Boston, New York, New Orleans, Orlando, and the Clippers. Four of LeVert's top six scoring nights were against playoff teams, including BOS and OKC as good defenses.

The Cavs have fallen to 8th in points allowed per 100 possessions. Okoro and Wade mean a lot more to this team on that end.

Over the Cavs' last 8 games (3-5 over that stretch) they have allowed opponents to shoot 45% from three overall, with the first Charlotte game being the only one where we held an opponent under league average. Everyone's out there shooting like a Curry brother against us right now.

[JujitsuFlip]

I've been hearing that excuse of teams just shoot better against us for 3 to 5 years now, tiresome.

I think a crazier stat is the fact the Cavs have been blown out 6 times in the past 14 games. This is when we should be ramping up to be competitive... This time of year is when our expiring star player said to judge us.

Nets lose by 19
Rockets lose by 14
Wolves lose by 13
Heat lose by 37
Nuggets lose by 29
Suns lose by 21

I mean, these games aren't even competitive... If this was any other part of the season you would can the coach, js.

[jbk1234]

This is not the answer...

So the only guys we can play are our starters? Yeah I've read this book, I've seen this movie.

Jb has to go if this is the answer at the end of every season, smh I'm sick of it. I thought we were supposed to be this team stacked with depth. Yeah now 5 games from the playoffs our answer is play the starting 5, 48 minutes per game or we lose, wonderful.

I think our bench gets pretty overrated by our fan base because they were able to beat some bad teams during the soft part of our schedule, before some of them even appeared on scouting reports, and opposing defenses were primarily focused on Mitchell. Also, you can get some wins by out-hustling teams in the middle of the season, but playoff teams start locking in come March.

Bob Bol shoots 45% from 3, offers rim protection, makes $2M per, and gave the Suns great minutes last night. The Suns got O'Neale for next to nothing at the deadline, went 4 first 5 from 3 and played good enough defense to stay on the floor.

If we're being honest, we lack two-way players on our bench. In theory, we should be able to play Wade, LeVert, and Okoro against most teams in the NBA, but they've shown a real inability to put points on board against solid defenses. On top of that Wade, and increasingly Okoro, can't stay healthy. Conversely, Niang and the SL Champs really can't defend at a playoff level.

In theory, you should be able to balance offense/defense with bench rotations, but Merrill, and occasionally Wade/Okoro, are the only ones who are good enough on one end to justify their limitations on the other. I feel like we're going to have guys like Niang and LeVert defaulting into a playoff rotation, but on a true contending roster, they wouldn't get meaningful minutes.

That's not on JBB, that's on Altman. He signed them last summer.

Not sure those bench players deserved that swipe. Wade's not a scorer, but his two 20-point games this year were against BOS and NOP. Okoro's only 20 point game was against Dallas, and he has 15+ points against Boston, New York, New Orleans, Orlando, and the Clippers. Four of LeVert's top six scoring nights were against playoff teams, including BOS and OKC as good defenses.

The Cavs have fallen to 8th in points allowed per 100 possessions. Okoro and Wade mean a lot more to this team on that end.

Over the Cavs' last 8 games (3-5 over that stretch) they have allowed opponents to shoot 45% from three overall, with the first Charlotte game being the only one where we held an opponent under league average. Everyone's out there shooting like a Curry brother against us right now.

Suffice to say, cherry-picking a handful of regular season games in the face of what we've seen after the all star break is unconvincing from my perspective. It's easy enough to ask whether the conditions that lead to those performances in the regular season are likely to be replicated in the playoffs. Also, we don't really have pre-and-post break splits on Wade, because once again, he's injured in the second half of the season heading into the playoffs.

Your point about the last 8 games only reinforces what I'm saying. JBB is scrambling to find any effective offense off the bench so he's playing Niang (traffic cone) and the lollipop guild (who opposing teams can shoot over). If we're being really honest, classifying LeVert as a defensive player feels pretty charitable.

There aren't a lot of attractive options here. Maybe you run the 2014 Finals playbook and stop pushing pace with our bench units. Go max defense and milk as much clock as you can get while the starters rest. Play Damien Jones at 4 off the bench?

It's the third season in a row where early season success was followed by a precipitous drop off after the break. Okoro, LeVert, and Wade have been around (or banged up and not around) for all 3. It's fair to ask whether, or how much, you want to rely on them going forward. Outside of one good game LeVert had against the Pacers, we got nothing from these guys when we needed them most (and I was against trading LeVert because I viewed him as valuable injury insurance at the deadline).

This is the second year in a row where it looked like Okoro was starting to turn a corner on offense only to hit a brick wall. It's the third season a row where we're finishing the season without a solid option for backup PG. I think Altman needs to ask himself whether Niang, who probably shouldn't see the floor against most playoff teams, is worth his salary slot on a team that wants to advance past the first round.

JBB's coda of play harder, at a point in the season where every team that's playing hard is playing really hard, has obviously outlived its usefulness. You're not going to get by on outworking other playoff teams. I'm meh on bringing him back, but whether he stays or goes, Altman should be willing to ask himself some hard questions about just how good the bench he's assembled actually is.

[JonFromVA]

I think our bench gets pretty overrated by our fan base because they were able to beat some bad teams during the soft part of our schedule, before some of them even appeared on scouting reports, and opposing defenses were primarily focused on Mitchell. Also, you can get some wins by out-hustling teams in the middle of the season, but playoff teams start locking in come March.

Bob Bol shoots 45% from 3, offers rim protection, makes $2M per, and gave the Suns great minutes last night. The Suns got O'Neale for next to nothing at the deadline, went 4 first 5 from 3 and played good enough defense to stay on the floor.

If we're being honest, we lack two-way players on our bench. In theory, we should be able to play Wade, LeVert, and Okoro against most teams in the NBA, but they've shown a real inability to put points on board against solid defenses. On top of that Wade, and increasingly Okoro, can't stay healthy. Conversely, Niang and the SL Champs really can't defend at a playoff level.

In theory, you should be able to balance offense/defense with bench rotations, but Merrill, and occasionally Wade/Okoro, are the only ones who are good enough on one end to justify their limitations on the other. I feel like we're going to have guys like Niang and LeVert defaulting into a playoff rotation, but on a true contending roster, they wouldn't get meaningful minutes.

That's not on JBB, that's on Altman. He signed them last summer.

Not sure those bench players deserved that swipe. Wade's not a scorer, but his two 20-point games this year were against BOS and NOP. Okoro's only 20 point game was against Dallas, and he has 15+ points against Boston, New York, New Orleans, Orlando, and the Clippers. Four of LeVert's top six scoring nights were against playoff teams, including BOS and OKC as good defenses.

The Cavs have fallen to 8th in points allowed per 100 possessions. Okoro and Wade mean a lot more to this team on that end.

Over the Cavs' last 8 games (3-5 over that stretch) they have allowed opponents to shoot 45% from three overall, with the first Charlotte game being the only one where we held an opponent under league average. Everyone's out there shooting like a Curry brother against us right now.

Suffice to say, cherry-picking a handful of regular season games in the face of what we've seen after the all star break is unconvincing from my perspective. It's easy enough to ask whether the conditions that lead to those performances in the regular season are likely to be replicated in the playoffs. Also, we don't really have pre-and-post break splits on Wade, because once again, he's injured in the second half of the season heading into the playoffs.

Your point about the last 8 games only reinforces what I'm saying. JBB is scrambling to find any effective offense off the bench so he's playing Niang (traffic cone) and the lollipop guild (who opposing teams can shoot over). If we're being really honest, classifying LeVert as a defensive player feels pretty charitable.

There aren't a lot of attractive options here. Maybe you run the 2014 Finals playbook and stop pushing pace with our bench units. Go max defense and milk as much clock as you can get while the starters rest. Play Damien Jones at 4 off the bench?

It's the third season in a row where early season success was followed by a precipitous drop off after the break. Okoro, LeVert, and Wade have been around (or banged up and not around) for all 3. It's fair to ask whether, or how much, you want to rely on them going forward. Outside of one good game LeVert had against the Pacers, we got nothing from these guys when we needed them most (and I was against trading LeVert because I viewed him as valuable injury insurance at the deadline).

This is the second year in a row where it looked like Okoro was starting to turn a corner on offense only to hit a brick wall. It's the third season a row where we're finishing the season without a solid option for backup PG. I think Altman needs to ask himself whether Niang, who probably shouldn't see the floor against most playoff teams, is worth his salary slot on a team that wants to advance past the first round.

JBB's coda of play harder, at a point in the season where every team that's playing hard is playing really hard, has obviously outlived its usefulness. You're not going to get by on outworking other playoff teams. I'm meh on bringing him back, but whether he stays or goes, Altman should be willing to ask himself some hard questions about just how good the bench he's assembled actually is.

Yet another frustrating thing is those end of the bench guys will play hard for him, but he'd have to give them a chance with consistent minutes and lineups. That's what they got during the winning streak, and once we started getting healthier that stopped.

Altman did plan for contingencies (at PG we had Garland, Mitchell, Rubio and Jerome before anyone had to even think about CPJ), but there is no contingency for Mitchell and Garland both getting hurt and being off their game. At best our coach can get creative and he's just not.

[jbk1234]

Not sure those bench players deserved that swipe. Wade's not a scorer, but his two 20-point games this year were against BOS and NOP. Okoro's only 20 point game was against Dallas, and he has 15+ points against Boston, New York, New Orleans, Orlando, and the Clippers. Four of LeVert's top six scoring nights were against playoff teams, including BOS and OKC as good defenses.

The Cavs have fallen to 8th in points allowed per 100 possessions. Okoro and Wade mean a lot more to this team on that end.

Over the Cavs' last 8 games (3-5 over that stretch) they have allowed opponents to shoot 45% from three overall, with the first Charlotte game being the only one where we held an opponent under league average. Everyone's out there shooting like a Curry brother against us right now.

Suffice to say, cherry-picking a handful of regular season games in the face of what we've seen after the all star break is unconvincing from my perspective. It's easy enough to ask whether the conditions that lead to those performances in the regular season are likely to be replicated in the playoffs. Also, we don't really have pre-and-post break splits on Wade, because once again, he's injured in the second half of the season heading into the playoffs.

Your point about the last 8 games only reinforces what I'm saying. JBB is scrambling to find any effective offense off the bench so he's playing Niang (traffic cone) and the lollipop guild (who opposing teams can shoot over). If we're being really honest, classifying LeVert as a defensive player feels pretty charitable.

There aren't a lot of attractive options here. Maybe you run the 2014 Finals playbook and stop pushing pace with our bench units. Go max defense and milk as much clock as you can get while the starters rest. Play Damien Jones at 4 off the bench?

It's the third season in a row where early season success was followed by a precipitous drop off after the break. Okoro, LeVert, and Wade have been around (or banged up and not around) for all 3. It's fair to ask whether, or how much, you want to rely on them going forward. Outside of one good game LeVert had against the Pacers, we got nothing from these guys when we needed them most (and I was against trading LeVert because I viewed him as valuable injury insurance at the deadline).

This is the second year in a row where it looked like Okoro was starting to turn a corner on offense only to hit a brick wall. It's the third season a row where we're finishing the season without a solid option for backup PG. I think Altman needs to ask himself whether Niang, who probably shouldn't see the floor against most playoff teams, is worth his salary slot on a team that wants to advance past the first round.

JBB's coda of play harder, at a point in the season where every team that's playing hard is playing really hard, has obviously outlived its usefulness. You're not going to get by on outworking other playoff teams. I'm meh on bringing him back, but whether he stays or goes, Altman should be willing to ask himself some hard questions about just how good the bench he's assembled actually is.

Yet another frustrating thing is those end of the bench guys will play hard for him, but he'd have to give them a chance with consistent minutes and lineups. That's what they got during the winning streak, and once we started getting healthier that stopped.

Altman did plan for contingencies (at PG we had Garland, Mitchell, Rubio and Jerome before anyone had to even think about CPJ), but there is no contingency for Mitchell and Garland both getting hurt and being off their game. At best our coach can get creative and he's just not.

We have a fundamental difference of opinion as to whether more chances would've made those guys better in a meaningful sense. There are just matchups where CPJ and Merrill give up too much size. Could CPJ have played in rotations alongside LeVert and Okoro more after the all star break, sure, but your spacing is jacked and none of those three really responded well to press defenses when CPJ was given the chance. Can you play him alongside Merrill and/or Garland, sure, but then everyone on the other team is shooting and/or passing over them. Also, Niang can't be out there with them unless you're just surrendering on defense.

I'm open to the idea that maybe Damien Jones should have seen more minutes, but really, when you're debating that, you're in the bad place.

The more fundamental problem is that Rubio, LeVert, Okoro, Wade, and Niang represent like 95% of the salary for our bench and I don't know what, if anything, they'll give us in the playoffs.

[JujitsuFlip]

Suffice to say, cherry-picking a handful of regular season games in the face of what we've seen after the all star break is unconvincing from my perspective. It's easy enough to ask whether the conditions that lead to those performances in the regular season are likely to be replicated in the playoffs. Also, we don't really have pre-and-post break splits on Wade, because once again, he's injured in the second half of the season heading into the playoffs.

Your point about the last 8 games only reinforces what I'm saying. JBB is scrambling to find any effective offense off the bench so he's playing Niang (traffic cone) and the lollipop guild (who opposing teams can shoot over). If we're being really honest, classifying LeVert as a defensive player feels pretty charitable.

There aren't a lot of attractive options here. Maybe you run the 2014 Finals playbook and stop pushing pace with our bench units. Go max defense and milk as much clock as you can get while the starters rest. Play Damien Jones at 4 off the bench?

It's the third season in a row where early season success was followed by a precipitous drop off after the break. Okoro, LeVert, and Wade have been around (or banged up and not around) for all 3. It's fair to ask whether, or how much, you want to rely on them going forward. Outside of one good game LeVert had against the Pacers, we got nothing from these guys when we needed them most (and I was against trading LeVert because I viewed him as valuable injury insurance at the deadline).

This is the second year in a row where it looked like Okoro was starting to turn a corner on offense only to hit a brick wall. It's the third season a row where we're finishing the season without a solid option for backup PG. I think Altman needs to ask himself whether Niang, who probably shouldn't see the floor against most playoff teams, is worth his salary slot on a team that wants to advance past the first round.

JBB's coda of play harder, at a point in the season where every team that's playing hard is playing really hard, has obviously outlived its usefulness. You're not going to get by on outworking other playoff teams. I'm meh on bringing him back, but whether he stays or goes, Altman should be willing to ask himself some hard questions about just how good the bench he's assembled actually is.

Yet another frustrating thing is those end of the bench guys will play hard for him, but he'd have to give them a chance with consistent minutes and lineups. That's what they got during the winning streak, and once we started getting healthier that stopped.

Altman did plan for contingencies (at PG we had Garland, Mitchell, Rubio and Jerome before anyone had to even think about CPJ), but there is no contingency for Mitchell and Garland both getting hurt and being off their game. At best our coach can get creative and he's just not.

We have a fundamental difference of opinion as to whether more chances would've made those guys better in a meaningful sense. There are just matchups where CPJ and Merrill give up too much size. Could CPJ have played in rotations alongside LeVert and Okoro more after the all star break, sure, but your spacing is jacked and none of those three really responded well to press defenses when CPJ was given the chance. Can you play him alongside Merrill and/or Garland, sure, but then everyone on the other team is shooting and/or passing over them. Also, Niang can't be out there with them unless you're just surrendering on defense.

I'm open to the idea that maybe Damien Jones should have seen more minutes, but really, when you're debating that, you're in the bad place.

The more fundamental problem is that Rubio, LeVert, Okoro, Wade, and Niang represent like 95% of the salary for our bench and I don't know what, if anything, they'll give us in the playoffs.

Well Rubio will for sure contribute nothing, that we know for sure lol

[jbk1234]

Yet another frustrating thing is those end of the bench guys will play hard for him, but he'd have to give them a chance with consistent minutes and lineups. That's what they got during the winning streak, and once we started getting healthier that stopped.

Altman did plan for contingencies (at PG we had Garland, Mitchell, Rubio and Jerome before anyone had to even think about CPJ), but there is no contingency for Mitchell and Garland both getting hurt and being off their game. At best our coach can get creative and he's just not.

We have a fundamental difference of opinion as to whether more chances would've made those guys better in a meaningful sense. There are just matchups where CPJ and Merrill give up too much size. Could CPJ have played in rotations alongside LeVert and Okoro more after the all star break, sure, but your spacing is jacked and none of those three really responded well to press defenses when CPJ was given the chance. Can you play him alongside Merrill and/or Garland, sure, but then everyone on the other team is shooting and/or passing over them. Also, Niang can't be out there with them unless you're just surrendering on defense.

I'm open to the idea that maybe Damien Jones should have seen more minutes, but really, when you're debating that, you're in the bad place.

The more fundamental problem is that Rubio, LeVert, Okoro, Wade, and Niang represent like 95% of the salary for our bench and I don't know what, if anything, they'll give us in the playoffs.

Well Rubio will for sure contribute nothing, that we know for sure lol

And maybe we should've attached some seconds to him to get someone who could when we had the chance, rather than deciding that CPJ has got this. Or, going forward, maybe play those guys real minutes against playoff teams with good defenses earlier in the season so you don't find out the hard way that they don't go it. Of course, the coaching staff watches these guys in practice all the time so maybe they have a better idea of who does, or does not, have it.

[JujitsuFlip]

We have a fundamental difference of opinion as to whether more chances would've made those guys better in a meaningful sense. There are just matchups where CPJ and Merrill give up too much size. Could CPJ have played in rotations alongside LeVert and Okoro more after the all star break, sure, but your spacing is jacked and none of those three really responded well to press defenses when CPJ was given the chance. Can you play him alongside Merrill and/or Garland, sure, but then everyone on the other team is shooting and/or passing over them. Also, Niang can't be out there with them unless you're just surrendering on defense.

I'm open to the idea that maybe Damien Jones should have seen more minutes, but really, when you're debating that, you're in the bad place.

The more fundamental problem is that Rubio, LeVert, Okoro, Wade, and Niang represent like 95% of the salary for our bench and I don't know what, if anything, they'll give us in the playoffs.

Well Rubio will for sure contribute nothing, that we know for sure lol

And maybe we should've attached some seconds to him to get someone who could when we had the chance, rather than deciding that CPJ has got this. Or, going forward, maybe play those guys real minutes against playoff teams with good defenses earlier in the season so you don't find out the hard way that they don't go it. Of course, the coaching staff watches these guys in practice all the time so maybe they have a better idea of who does, or does not, have it.

Jb only trusts like 6 MAYBE 7 guys on the whole roster, so idk if it really matters who has it or doesn't have it or who is capable/incapable. When push comes to shove, as we saw in the Suns game, 6 guys got big minutes, very reminiscent of the 2023 playoffs.

The only way another early post season exit can even be spun as a good thing is if action happens. If it's just another early exit and Jb saying some word salad stuff to take the blame off himself, it is all for not, either way.

[jbk1234]

Well Rubio will for sure contribute nothing, that we know for sure lol

And maybe we should've attached some seconds to him to get someone who could when we had the chance, rather than deciding that CPJ has got this. Or, going forward, maybe play those guys real minutes against playoff teams with good defenses earlier in the season so you don't find out the hard way that they don't go it. Of course, the coaching staff watches these guys in practice all the time so maybe they have a better idea of who does, or does not, have it.

Jb only trusts like 6 MAYBE 7 guys on the whole roster, so idk if it really matters who has it or doesn't have it or who is capable/incapable. When push comes to shove, as we saw in the Suns game, 6 guys got big minutes, very reminiscent of the 2023 playoffs.

The only way another early post season exit can even be spun as a good thing is if action happens. If it's just another early exit and Jb saying some word salad stuff to take the blame off himself, it is all for not, either way.

How'd CPJ, Merrill, Niang, and Morris look in their limited minutes to you? I mean at some point, especially as you're approaching the playoffs, that has to matter. You can't leave guys who are killing you out there or you're going home early.

[toooskies]

I think our bench gets pretty overrated by our fan base because they were able to beat some bad teams during the soft part of our schedule, before some of them even appeared on scouting reports, and opposing defenses were primarily focused on Mitchell. Also, you can get some wins by out-hustling teams in the middle of the season, but playoff teams start locking in come March.

Bob Bol shoots 45% from 3, offers rim protection, makes $2M per, and gave the Suns great minutes last night. The Suns got O'Neale for next to nothing at the deadline, went 4 first 5 from 3 and played good enough defense to stay on the floor.

If we're being honest, we lack two-way players on our bench. In theory, we should be able to play Wade, LeVert, and Okoro against most teams in the NBA, but they've shown a real inability to put points on board against solid defenses. On top of that Wade, and increasingly Okoro, can't stay healthy. Conversely, Niang and the SL Champs really can't defend at a playoff level.

In theory, you should be able to balance offense/defense with bench rotations, but Merrill, and occasionally Wade/Okoro, are the only ones who are good enough on one end to justify their limitations on the other. I feel like we're going to have guys like Niang and LeVert defaulting into a playoff rotation, but on a true contending roster, they wouldn't get meaningful minutes.

That's not on JBB, that's on Altman. He signed them last summer.

Not sure those bench players deserved that swipe. Wade's not a scorer, but his two 20-point games this year were against BOS and NOP. Okoro's only 20 point game was against Dallas, and he has 15+ points against Boston, New York, New Orleans, Orlando, and the Clippers. Four of LeVert's top six scoring nights were against playoff teams, including BOS and OKC as good defenses.

The Cavs have fallen to 8th in points allowed per 100 possessions. Okoro and Wade mean a lot more to this team on that end.

Over the Cavs' last 8 games (3-5 over that stretch) they have allowed opponents to shoot 45% from three overall, with the first Charlotte game being the only one where we held an opponent under league average. Everyone's out there shooting like a Curry brother against us right now.

Suffice to say, cherry-picking a handful of regular season games in the face of what we've seen after the all star break is unconvincing from my perspective. It's easy enough to ask whether the conditions that lead to those performances in the regular season are likely to be replicated in the playoffs. Also, we don't really have pre-and-post break splits on Wade, because once again, he's injured in the second half of the season heading into the playoffs.

Your point about the last 8 games only reinforces what I'm saying. JBB is scrambling to find any effective offense off the bench so he's playing Niang (traffic cone) and the lollipop guild (who opposing teams can shoot over). If we're being really honest, classifying LeVert as a defensive player feels pretty charitable.

There aren't a lot of attractive options here. Maybe you run the 2014 Finals playbook and stop pushing pace with our bench units. Go max defense and milk as much clock as you can get while the starters rest. Play Damien Jones at 4 off the bench?

It's the third season in a row where early season success was followed by a precipitous drop off after the break. Okoro, LeVert, and Wade have been around (or banged up and not around) for all 3. It's fair to ask whether, or how much, you want to rely on them going forward. Outside of one good game LeVert had against the Pacers, we got nothing from these guys when we needed them most (and I was against trading LeVert because I viewed him as valuable injury insurance at the deadline).

This is the second year in a row where it looked like Okoro was starting to turn a corner on offense only to hit a brick wall. It's the third season a row where we're finishing the season without a solid option for backup PG. I think Altman needs to ask himself whether Niang, who probably shouldn't see the floor against most playoff teams, is worth his salary slot on a team that wants to advance past the first round.

JBB's coda of play harder, at a point in the season where every team that's playing hard is playing really hard, has obviously outlived its usefulness. You're not going to get by on outworking other playoff teams. I'm meh on bringing him back, but whether he stays or goes, Altman should be willing to ask himself some hard questions about just how good the bench he's assembled actually is.

We won games after last year's all-star break at the same rate as before the break. (If you count the drop-off as the playoffs, well, that's not what you were conveying and it's much more complicated than just that those role players didn't play well enough, although a useful Wade would've gone a long way.)

The other two years, the team's most important players (both Garland and Allen in 2022; Mitchell and Garland in 2024) have been injured and clearly less than 100% even when they do play. There's no reason to complicate things and put blame on role players for not being more than role players.

... Or is it actually due to role players not performing?

Looking closer at our team stats before and after the all-star break, one thing is clear: it's defense and rebounding that's the problem.

• We're shooting five fewer shots per game, while the other team takes the same number of shots per game.
• It's mostly due to us getting 3 fewer offensive rebounds per game. Missing Evan, TT, and Wade all at once over this period will do that-- but Allen and Mobley's RBs are both down over that period, too.
• The rest of the missing shots are due to forcing two fewer turnovers per game defensively. (We're getting one fewer steal per game, which is not-coincidentally how much Donovan's steals have fallen off per game since the ASB, but Garland's steals are down too.)
• Our defensive rebounding slipped a bit, too-- two fewer DRBs per game, although a fair amount of that is pace-related.
• Our TS% is only very slightly down, from 58.8% to 58.4%, with roughly the same number of turnovers. Our shot profile is fine, even as much as Mitchell and Garland have struggled. (Teams are typically most efficient at the end of the year?)
• Our opponents' TS% has climbed from 56% to 58%, including going from 36% on threes to 39%, while they're making a few more 2s and fewer FTs.

Taken from https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2024/splits/

It's all defense (DRBs, turnovers, efficiency) and rebounding (3 lost second-chance shots per game). Role player stuff? Although the stats are mostly due to the core four simply not performing in those areas as well as they had been.

[JujitsuFlip]

And maybe we should've attached some seconds to him to get someone who could when we had the chance, rather than deciding that CPJ has got this. Or, going forward, maybe play those guys real minutes against playoff teams with good defenses earlier in the season so you don't find out the hard way that they don't go it. Of course, the coaching staff watches these guys in practice all the time so maybe they have a better idea of who does, or does not, have it.

Jb only trusts like 6 MAYBE 7 guys on the whole roster, so idk if it really matters who has it or doesn't have it or who is capable/incapable. When push comes to shove, as we saw in the Suns game, 6 guys got big minutes, very reminiscent of the 2023 playoffs.

The only way another early post season exit can even be spun as a good thing is if action happens. If it's just another early exit and Jb saying some word salad stuff to take the blame off himself, it is all for not, either way.

How'd CPJ, Merrill, Niang, and Morris look in their limited minutes to you? I mean at some point, especially as you're approaching the playoffs, that has to matter. You can't leave guys who are killing you out there or you're going home early.

You know i rarely watch games jbk lol so i can't tell ya.

But i think 4:49, 4:26, and 1:27 is very difficult to show anything one way or another. I was never great at basketball so my minutes were a lot like that when I was playing on my most competitive teams. You play so tight and so panicked because you don't wanna make a mistake or you will get pulled from the game.

Even Ninag's 11:21, i get it, that is what i call a rotation player but it can be hard to even find a rhythm.

Just after last season's playoffs, I was hopeful we wouldn't be in the same situation from a rotation standpoint. There has to be trust, there has to be give and take.

In my opinion the Cavs are going home early either way, at least going out trying different players and different looks. Just to just run 6 guys into the ground and hope they figure it out is an awful head coach startgey, imo. Playoff basketball is all about situational lineups and play calling.

[jbk1234]

Not sure those bench players deserved that swipe. Wade's not a scorer, but his two 20-point games this year were against BOS and NOP. Okoro's only 20 point game was against Dallas, and he has 15+ points against Boston, New York, New Orleans, Orlando, and the Clippers. Four of LeVert's top six scoring nights were against playoff teams, including BOS and OKC as good defenses.

The Cavs have fallen to 8th in points allowed per 100 possessions. Okoro and Wade mean a lot more to this team on that end.

Over the Cavs' last 8 games (3-5 over that stretch) they have allowed opponents to shoot 45% from three overall, with the first Charlotte game being the only one where we held an opponent under league average. Everyone's out there shooting like a Curry brother against us right now.

Suffice to say, cherry-picking a handful of regular season games in the face of what we've seen after the all star break is unconvincing from my perspective. It's easy enough to ask whether the conditions that lead to those performances in the regular season are likely to be replicated in the playoffs. Also, we don't really have pre-and-post break splits on Wade, because once again, he's injured in the second half of the season heading into the playoffs.

Your point about the last 8 games only reinforces what I'm saying. JBB is scrambling to find any effective offense off the bench so he's playing Niang (traffic cone) and the lollipop guild (who opposing teams can shoot over). If we're being really honest, classifying LeVert as a defensive player feels pretty charitable.

There aren't a lot of attractive options here. Maybe you run the 2014 Finals playbook and stop pushing pace with our bench units. Go max defense and milk as much clock as you can get while the starters rest. Play Damien Jones at 4 off the bench?

It's the third season in a row where early season success was followed by a precipitous drop off after the break. Okoro, LeVert, and Wade have been around (or banged up and not around) for all 3. It's fair to ask whether, or how much, you want to rely on them going forward. Outside of one good game LeVert had against the Pacers, we got nothing from these guys when we needed them most (and I was against trading LeVert because I viewed him as valuable injury insurance at the deadline).

This is the second year in a row where it looked like Okoro was starting to turn a corner on offense only to hit a brick wall. It's the third season a row where we're finishing the season without a solid option for backup PG. I think Altman needs to ask himself whether Niang, who probably shouldn't see the floor against most playoff teams, is worth his salary slot on a team that wants to advance past the first round.

JBB's coda of play harder, at a point in the season where every team that's playing hard is playing really hard, has obviously outlived its usefulness. You're not going to get by on outworking other playoff teams. I'm meh on bringing him back, but whether he stays or goes, Altman should be willing to ask himself some hard questions about just how good the bench he's assembled actually is.

We won games after last year's all-star break at the same rate as before the break. (If you count the drop-off as the playoffs, well, that's not what you were conveying and it's much more complicated than just that those role players didn't play well enough, although a useful Wade would've gone a long way.)

The other two years, the team's most important players (both Garland and Allen in 2022; Mitchell and Garland in 2024) have been injured and clearly less than 100% even when they do play. There's no reason to complicate things and put blame on role players for not being more than role players.

... Or is it actually due to role players not performing?

Looking closer at our team stats before and after the all-star break, one thing is clear: it's defense and rebounding that's the problem.

• We're shooting five fewer shots per game, while the other team takes the same number of shots per game.
• It's mostly due to us getting 3 fewer offensive rebounds per game. Missing Evan, TT, and Wade all at once over this period will do that-- but Allen and Mobley's RBs are both down over that period, too.
• The rest of the missing shots are due to forcing two fewer turnovers per game defensively. (We're getting one fewer steal per game, which is not-coincidentally how much Donovan's steals have fallen off per game since the ASB, but Garland's steals are down too.)
• Our defensive rebounding slipped a bit, too-- two fewer DRBs per game, although a fair amount of that is pace-related.
• Our TS% is only very slightly down, from 58.8% to 58.4%, with roughly the same number of turnovers. Our shot profile is fine, even as much as Mitchell and Garland have struggled. (Teams are typically most efficient at the end of the year?)
• Our opponents' TS% has climbed from 56% to 58%, including going from 36% on threes to 39%, while they're making a few more 2s and fewer FTs.

Taken from https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2024/splits/

It's all defense (DRBs, turnovers, efficiency) and rebounding (3 lost second-chance shots per game). Role player stuff? Although the stats are mostly due to the core four simply not performing in those areas as well as they had been.

I don't think it's as simple as applying a role player label to a guy and shrugging your shoulders. We traded a lot for LeVert to come in and be able to serve as a secondary ball handler, play maker. We then handed him $32M last summer. Okoro wants to get paid like a starter this summer. But when we were down all of Mitchell, Strus, Wade, and Mobley were out in the toughest part of our schedule, and defenses were focusing almost exclusively on Garland, those two averaged like 10 ppg as our starting SG and SF.

To channel my inner Don Draper: That's what the money's for! You're two of our key role players one of whom is paid well and the other guy is looking to be. LeVert's splits are brutal and if Okoro is never going to average more than 10 ppg, then he's just a defensive specialist off the bench. Meanwhile, it's not clear to me that Niang will ever get more than spot minutes in the postseason. That's a bunch of money committed to guys you might not be able to play in the postseason.

[toooskies]

Suffice to say, cherry-picking a handful of regular season games in the face of what we've seen after the all star break is unconvincing from my perspective. It's easy enough to ask whether the conditions that lead to those performances in the regular season are likely to be replicated in the playoffs. Also, we don't really have pre-and-post break splits on Wade, because once again, he's injured in the second half of the season heading into the playoffs.

Your point about the last 8 games only reinforces what I'm saying. JBB is scrambling to find any effective offense off the bench so he's playing Niang (traffic cone) and the lollipop guild (who opposing teams can shoot over). If we're being really honest, classifying LeVert as a defensive player feels pretty charitable.

There aren't a lot of attractive options here. Maybe you run the 2014 Finals playbook and stop pushing pace with our bench units. Go max defense and milk as much clock as you can get while the starters rest. Play Damien Jones at 4 off the bench?

It's the third season in a row where early season success was followed by a precipitous drop off after the break. Okoro, LeVert, and Wade have been around (or banged up and not around) for all 3. It's fair to ask whether, or how much, you want to rely on them going forward. Outside of one good game LeVert had against the Pacers, we got nothing from these guys when we needed them most (and I was against trading LeVert because I viewed him as valuable injury insurance at the deadline).

This is the second year in a row where it looked like Okoro was starting to turn a corner on offense only to hit a brick wall. It's the third season a row where we're finishing the season without a solid option for backup PG. I think Altman needs to ask himself whether Niang, who probably shouldn't see the floor against most playoff teams, is worth his salary slot on a team that wants to advance past the first round.

JBB's coda of play harder, at a point in the season where every team that's playing hard is playing really hard, has obviously outlived its usefulness. You're not going to get by on outworking other playoff teams. I'm meh on bringing him back, but whether he stays or goes, Altman should be willing to ask himself some hard questions about just how good the bench he's assembled actually is.

We won games after last year's all-star break at the same rate as before the break. (If you count the drop-off as the playoffs, well, that's not what you were conveying and it's much more complicated than just that those role players didn't play well enough, although a useful Wade would've gone a long way.)

The other two years, the team's most important players (both Garland and Allen in 2022; Mitchell and Garland in 2024) have been injured and clearly less than 100% even when they do play. There's no reason to complicate things and put blame on role players for not being more than role players.

... Or is it actually due to role players not performing?

Looking closer at our team stats before and after the all-star break, one thing is clear: it's defense and rebounding that's the problem.

• We're shooting five fewer shots per game, while the other team takes the same number of shots per game.
• It's mostly due to us getting 3 fewer offensive rebounds per game. Missing Evan, TT, and Wade all at once over this period will do that-- but Allen and Mobley's RBs are both down over that period, too.
• The rest of the missing shots are due to forcing two fewer turnovers per game defensively. (We're getting one fewer steal per game, which is not-coincidentally how much Donovan's steals have fallen off per game since the ASB, but Garland's steals are down too.)
• Our defensive rebounding slipped a bit, too-- two fewer DRBs per game, although a fair amount of that is pace-related.
• Our TS% is only very slightly down, from 58.8% to 58.4%, with roughly the same number of turnovers. Our shot profile is fine, even as much as Mitchell and Garland have struggled. (Teams are typically most efficient at the end of the year?)
• Our opponents' TS% has climbed from 56% to 58%, including going from 36% on threes to 39%, while they're making a few more 2s and fewer FTs.

Taken from https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2024/splits/

It's all defense (DRBs, turnovers, efficiency) and rebounding (3 lost second-chance shots per game). Role player stuff? Although the stats are mostly due to the core four simply not performing in those areas as well as they had been.

I don't think it's as simple as applying a role player label to a guy and shrugging your shoulders. We traded a lot for LeVert to come in and be able to serve as a secondary ball handler, play maker. We then handed him $32M last summer. Okoro wants to get paid like a starter this summer. But when we were down all of Mitchell, Strus, Wade, and Mobley were out in the toughest part of our schedule, and defenses were focusing almost exclusively on Garland, those two averaged like 10 ppg as our starting SG and SF.

To channel my inner Don Draper: That's what the money's for! You're two of our key role players one of whom is paid well and the other guy is looking to be. LeVert's splits are brutal and if Okoro is never going to average more than 10 ppg, then he's just a defensive specialist off the bench. Meanwhile, it's not clear to me that Niang will ever get more than spot minutes in the postseason. That's a bunch of money committed to guys you might not be able to play in the postseason.

You think the offense has been the problem and I just disagree.

[JonFromVA]

We won games after last year's all-star break at the same rate as before the break. (If you count the drop-off as the playoffs, well, that's not what you were conveying and it's much more complicated than just that those role players didn't play well enough, although a useful Wade would've gone a long way.)

The other two years, the team's most important players (both Garland and Allen in 2022; Mitchell and Garland in 2024) have been injured and clearly less than 100% even when they do play. There's no reason to complicate things and put blame on role players for not being more than role players.

... Or is it actually due to role players not performing?

Looking closer at our team stats before and after the all-star break, one thing is clear: it's defense and rebounding that's the problem.

• We're shooting five fewer shots per game, while the other team takes the same number of shots per game.
• It's mostly due to us getting 3 fewer offensive rebounds per game. Missing Evan, TT, and Wade all at once over this period will do that-- but Allen and Mobley's RBs are both down over that period, too.
• The rest of the missing shots are due to forcing two fewer turnovers per game defensively. (We're getting one fewer steal per game, which is not-coincidentally how much Donovan's steals have fallen off per game since the ASB, but Garland's steals are down too.)
• Our defensive rebounding slipped a bit, too-- two fewer DRBs per game, although a fair amount of that is pace-related.
• Our TS% is only very slightly down, from 58.8% to 58.4%, with roughly the same number of turnovers. Our shot profile is fine, even as much as Mitchell and Garland have struggled. (Teams are typically most efficient at the end of the year?)
• Our opponents' TS% has climbed from 56% to 58%, including going from 36% on threes to 39%, while they're making a few more 2s and fewer FTs.

Taken from https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2024/splits/

It's all defense (DRBs, turnovers, efficiency) and rebounding (3 lost second-chance shots per game). Role player stuff? Although the stats are mostly due to the core four simply not performing in those areas as well as they had been.

I don't think it's as simple as applying a role player label to a guy and shrugging your shoulders. We traded a lot for LeVert to come in and be able to serve as a secondary ball handler, play maker. We then handed him $32M last summer. Okoro wants to get paid like a starter this summer. But when we were down all of Mitchell, Strus, Wade, and Mobley were out in the toughest part of our schedule, and defenses were focusing almost exclusively on Garland, those two averaged like 10 ppg as our starting SG and SF.

To channel my inner Don Draper: That's what the money's for! You're two of our key role players one of whom is paid well and the other guy is looking to be. LeVert's splits are brutal and if Okoro is never going to average more than 10 ppg, then he's just a defensive specialist off the bench. Meanwhile, it's not clear to me that Niang will ever get more than spot minutes in the postseason. That's a bunch of money committed to guys you might not be able to play in the postseason.

You think the offense has been the problem and I just disagree.

Out scoring opponents is a very viable approach under current rules and we do seem to have more offensive role players available than defensive. Clearly JBB is not the coach for that approach. Morris might fill some of the gaps if he figures out where he's supposed to be on the floor. So short of Isaac or Dean returning, would you rather count on Caris, TT, and Morris to shore up the D? Or open up the offense and get more Niang and Merrill? Actually TT could in theory help either group, but who knows post suspension.

I'd continue to advocate for CPJ, but it's beating a dead horse. JBB is going down with his vets, and CPJ isn't getting a real role unless all the remaining vets are run in to the ground and out with season ending injuries.

[jbk1234]

I don't think it's as simple as applying a role player label to a guy and shrugging your shoulders. We traded a lot for LeVert to come in and be able to serve as a secondary ball handler, play maker. We then handed him $32M last summer. Okoro wants to get paid like a starter this summer. But when we were down all of Mitchell, Strus, Wade, and Mobley were out in the toughest part of our schedule, and defenses were focusing almost exclusively on Garland, those two averaged like 10 ppg as our starting SG and SF.

To channel my inner Don Draper: That's what the money's for! You're two of our key role players one of whom is paid well and the other guy is looking to be. LeVert's splits are brutal and if Okoro is never going to average more than 10 ppg, then he's just a defensive specialist off the bench. Meanwhile, it's not clear to me that Niang will ever get more than spot minutes in the postseason. That's a bunch of money committed to guys you might not be able to play in the postseason.

You think the offense has been the problem and I just disagree.

Out scoring opponents is a very viable approach under current rules and we do seem to have more offensive role players available than defensive. Clearly JBB is not the coach for that approach. Morris might fill some of the gaps if he figures out where he's supposed to be on the floor. So short of Isaac or Dean returning, would you rather count on Caris, TT, and Morris to shore up the D? Or open up the offense and get more Niang and Merrill? Actually TT could in theory help either group, but who knows post suspension.

I'd continue to advocate for CPJ, but it's beating a dead horse. JBB is going down with his vets, and CPJ isn't getting a real role unless all the remaining vets are run in to the ground and out with season ending injuries.

My issue is we had Okoro for most of the post all star break run and whatever he gave us on defense wasn't enough to offset his limitations on the offensive side of the ball.

But the rest of these names only underscore my point. We got Morris off the waiver wire. CPJ was undrafted and is on a league minimum deal. Merrill is on a league minimum deal that wasn't even fully guaranteed. TT was out of the league last year and is on a league minimum deal. Damien Jones is on a league minimum deal and the Jazz gave us to him for nothing but the salary slot. You expect all of those players to be limited.

Of LeVert, Okoro, Wade, and Niang, only Wade can be said to be on a value contract and his value is tempered by his inopportune unavailability. Even if you give Altman a pass on Rubio, we're paying more than $40M per to guys who have thus far demonstrated they're of limited value against good teams. That's not on JBB.

[JujitsuFlip]

You think the offense has been the problem and I just disagree.

Out scoring opponents is a very viable approach under current rules and we do seem to have more offensive role players available than defensive. Clearly JBB is not the coach for that approach. Morris might fill some of the gaps if he figures out where he's supposed to be on the floor. So short of Isaac or Dean returning, would you rather count on Caris, TT, and Morris to shore up the D? Or open up the offense and get more Niang and Merrill? Actually TT could in theory help either group, but who knows post suspension.

I'd continue to advocate for CPJ, but it's beating a dead horse. JBB is going down with his vets, and CPJ isn't getting a real role unless all the remaining vets are run in to the ground and out with season ending injuries.

My issue is we had Okoro for most of the post all star break run and whatever he gave us on defense wasn't enough to offset his limitations on the offensive side of the ball.

But the rest of these names only underscore my point. We got Morris off the waiver wire. CPJ was undrafted and is on a league minimum deal. Merrill is on a league minimum deal that wasn't even fully guaranteed. TT was out of the league last year and is on a league minimum deal. Damien Jones is on a league minimum deal and the Jazz gave us to him for nothing but the salary slot. You expect all of those players to be limited.

Of LeVert, Okoro, Wade, and Niang, only Wade can be said to be on a value contract and his value is tempered by his inopportune unavailability. Even if you give Altman a pass on Rubio, we're paying more than $40M per to guys who have thus far demonstrated they're of limited value against good teams. That's not on JBB.

I don't think you can absolve Jb, after watching that Lakers game today. It is the way Jb uses the bench. It goes back to he is a terrible situational coach. He doesn't understand the flow of a basketball game. If Jb needs to sub player x in/out at the x minute mark in the x quarter, he is gonna do that regardless of the score of the game, the flow of the game, foul situation etc... That is terrible coaching.

[JonFromVA]

You think the offense has been the problem and I just disagree.

Out scoring opponents is a very viable approach under current rules and we do seem to have more offensive role players available than defensive. Clearly JBB is not the coach for that approach. Morris might fill some of the gaps if he figures out where he's supposed to be on the floor. So short of Isaac or Dean returning, would you rather count on Caris, TT, and Morris to shore up the D? Or open up the offense and get more Niang and Merrill? Actually TT could in theory help either group, but who knows post suspension.

I'd continue to advocate for CPJ, but it's beating a dead horse. JBB is going down with his vets, and CPJ isn't getting a real role unless all the remaining vets are run in to the ground and out with season ending injuries.

My issue is we had Okoro for most of the post all star break run and whatever he gave us on defense wasn't enough to offset his limitations on the offensive side of the ball.

But the rest of these names only underscore my point. We got Morris off the waiver wire. CPJ was undrafted and is on a league minimum deal. Merrill is on a league minimum deal that wasn't even fully guaranteed. TT was out of the league last year and is on a league minimum deal. Damien Jones is on a league minimum deal and the Jazz gave us to him for nothing but the salary slot. You expect all of those players to be limited.

Of LeVert, Okoro, Wade, and Niang, only Wade can be said to be on a value contract and his value is tempered by his inopportune unavailability. Even if you give Altman a pass on Rubio, we're paying more than $40M per to guys who have thus far demonstrated they're of limited value against good teams. That's not on JBB.

Were trying to hold on to a playin spot if not for those guys, so it's not about the pay, but what they can bring. If JBB can't even be bothered to try combinations that worked, that's on him.

Just a few weeks ago we were the deepest team in the league.

[JujitsuFlip]

Out scoring opponents is a very viable approach under current rules and we do seem to have more offensive role players available than defensive. Clearly JBB is not the coach for that approach. Morris might fill some of the gaps if he figures out where he's supposed to be on the floor. So short of Isaac or Dean returning, would you rather count on Caris, TT, and Morris to shore up the D? Or open up the offense and get more Niang and Merrill? Actually TT could in theory help either group, but who knows post suspension.

I'd continue to advocate for CPJ, but it's beating a dead horse. JBB is going down with his vets, and CPJ isn't getting a real role unless all the remaining vets are run in to the ground and out with season ending injuries.

My issue is we had Okoro for most of the post all star break run and whatever he gave us on defense wasn't enough to offset his limitations on the offensive side of the ball.

But the rest of these names only underscore my point. We got Morris off the waiver wire. CPJ was undrafted and is on a league minimum deal. Merrill is on a league minimum deal that wasn't even fully guaranteed. TT was out of the league last year and is on a league minimum deal. Damien Jones is on a league minimum deal and the Jazz gave us to him for nothing but the salary slot. You expect all of those players to be limited.

Of LeVert, Okoro, Wade, and Niang, only Wade can be said to be on a value contract and his value is tempered by his inopportune unavailability. Even if you give Altman a pass on Rubio, we're paying more than $40M per to guys who have thus far demonstrated they're of limited value against good teams. That's not on JBB.

Were trying to hold on to a playin spot if not for those guys, so it's not about the pay, but what they can bring. If JBB can't even be bothered to try combinations that worked, that's on him.

Just a few weeks ago we were the deepest team in the league.

That is what kills me.

[jbk1234]

Out scoring opponents is a very viable approach under current rules and we do seem to have more offensive role players available than defensive. Clearly JBB is not the coach for that approach. Morris might fill some of the gaps if he figures out where he's supposed to be on the floor. So short of Isaac or Dean returning, would you rather count on Caris, TT, and Morris to shore up the D? Or open up the offense and get more Niang and Merrill? Actually TT could in theory help either group, but who knows post suspension.

I'd continue to advocate for CPJ, but it's beating a dead horse. JBB is going down with his vets, and CPJ isn't getting a real role unless all the remaining vets are run in to the ground and out with season ending injuries.

My issue is we had Okoro for most of the post all star break run and whatever he gave us on defense wasn't enough to offset his limitations on the offensive side of the ball.

But the rest of these names only underscore my point. We got Morris off the waiver wire. CPJ was undrafted and is on a league minimum deal. Merrill is on a league minimum deal that wasn't even fully guaranteed. TT was out of the league last year and is on a league minimum deal. Damien Jones is on a league minimum deal and the Jazz gave us to him for nothing but the salary slot. You expect all of those players to be limited.

Of LeVert, Okoro, Wade, and Niang, only Wade can be said to be on a value contract and his value is tempered by his inopportune unavailability. Even if you give Altman a pass on Rubio, we're paying more than $40M per to guys who have thus far demonstrated they're of limited value against good teams. That's not on JBB.

Were trying to hold on to a playin spot if not for those guys, so it's not about the pay, but what they can bring. If JBB can't even be bothered to try combinations that worked, that's on him.

Just a few weeks ago we were the deepest team in the league.

We beat the Jazz pretty easily without Mitchell less than a week ago. You're overly dismissive of the fact that what works against bad teams doesn't always work against good ones.

The Lakers, who just handed it to us, thought they had a great roster until they ran into Denver last season. They quickly discovered it was hard to play all their one-way guys when the other team exploits their weaknesses. Dlo is a different player when he's adequately defended and is getting targeted on the other end. Whatever Vanderbilt brings on defense gets offset pretty quickly when it results in an automatic double team to AD or LBJ.

I'd argue that the problem we're having is injuries are forcing us to play guys who should be seeing their minutes cut at this point in the season. This boils down to you thinking CPJ should be seeing a lot more run even though he hasn't looked great in the run he's gotten in the last two months.

The fundamental problem is he's undersized so he needed to show he was a viable option with LeVert and Okoro when he had the chance because otherwise he's sharing the court with at least one, or more likely two, weak defenders and we haven't been able to outscore good teams by spamming 3s the way we did earlier in the season. Even Mitchell needs to be hidden on defense right now.

Moreover, most of those combinations were reliant on Wade's defense and rebounding. There was good reason to think that spamming 3s with undersized units was not a viable long-term strategy. We're not the first team to try it, enjoy some success, and then experience reversals.