Cuban gets way more respect than he deserves

[ChipotleWest]

As far as selling the team I have no idea if he's still in charge or not. I've heard yes and heard no. I'm going to assume he is, but if not I'll just talk about his past.

-Bought the Mavs when they had already drafted Dirk, so no credit for that (not a negative but just pointing that out)
-Refused to pay Steve Nash the going rate to keep him
-Blew up a championship team and tried to sell it to the fans that they were incapable of repeating. Some say he did this to chase superstars some say he didn't want to pay the luxury tax
-Instituted plan powder to chase superstars which was an utter failure for years. Every year stars would go elsewhere and they'd have to settle for whoever was left
-Chandler Parsons contract, thought he outsmarted Houston but they outsmarted him
-Could have drafted Giannis Antetokounmpo, Donnie Nelson scouted him and that was the pick but Cuban vetoed it to move down in the draft to save a little cap space for Dwight Howard (who never came, and never won anything) instead they drafted Shane Larkin son of baseball legend Barry Larkin. Shane is no longer in the NBA and plays overseas.
-many trades that were disasters such as Rondo. Maybe not his fault he didn't want to be there but kept Powell who was a throw in to this day because reportedly they're movie buddies
-gave some gambler too much power in the organization, was even telling Carlisle what plays to call which lead to his departure
-alleged sexual misconduct in the organization
-Porzingis trade which I was excited about him coming but ended with him being traded for very little and they still owe the Knicks their 2024 1st round pick 5 years after the trade and he was gone after 3. THJ a throw in still on the roster
-extended THJ for 4 years in 2021 when fans wanted him gone, still playing him 25 minutes a game today when there's better options on the team
-When Rick Carlisle walked out the door asked him who he should hire to replace him, Rick said Kidd and he listened for some reason
-Gave 1st round pick for PJ Washington who isn't that great
-Gives out 1st round picks like candy, rarely ever gets one for players going out. Gave up 2 for Porzingis, got none for Porzingis in the trade to Washington

Very few draft picks remaining for the rest of the decade. Going to be difficult to make a contender, especially when they won't fire the coach.

There's probably more that I'm just not thinking about right now, but that's quite a bit. I mean the only big two plusses were the championship and drafting Luka. But Jerry Jones won 3 championships and Cuban gets a lot more respect for some reason. Not that Jerry deserves any either.

I was happy to hear Cuban sold the team but not satisfied because he retained power. I want him out completely. Supposedly from what I heard the whole reasoning behind it is to legalize gambling in Texas and they want to build a casino in Dallas. So now I guess he's behind manipulating the laws of Texas. Whatever.

[ChipotleWest]

Forgot to mention after blowing up championship team and losing Tyson Chandler traded for Lamar Odom who had become (or always was) a drug addict and had no desire to be in Dallas.

[jpengland]

2nd most games won in the NBA since 2000 (behind the Spurs)*

You can point to mistakes and faults, sure. But Cuban took the franchise and turned it around. With a few better breaks there could be more titles, sure. But he's put a winning product out there year after year.



*I think that's still accurate

[ChipotleWest]

How much of that is thanks to Dirk who was already drafted before Cuban bought the team?

But honestly up until the championship I liked some of the trades the Mavs would make. But after it became a joke from all perspectives. Donnie scouted Dirk and Luka, luckily Cuban listened when he wanted Luka because it would still be dark ages for Mavs. Other times like Giannis he didn't listen and it was a disaster.

The obvious thing they can do next is fire Kidd.

Luka's loyalty will be tested is he like Dirk who just wants to stay with the Mavs and hope they get it right or will he say enough is enough and leave?

[ozwizard8]

2nd most games won in the NBA since 2000 (behind the Spurs)*

You can point to mistakes and faults, sure. But Cuban took the franchise and turned it around. With a few better breaks there could be more titles, sure. But he's put a winning product out there year after year.
*I think that's still accurate

You're starting to count from the point where Mavs had 2 MVP-caliber, HOFer players. Just Dirk alone would be enough to be on top for 15 years. Then getting Luka was a success but also kinda lucky because other teams should've drafted Luka without a second though. Him dropping to the 3rd is crazy.

And I dont necessarily interested in having too many mediocre seasons instead of few tanking and mostly top seed seasons. People blamed Carlisle for not getting out of 1st round for 7-8 years but those roster shouldn't even make playoffs for most years . Give me a GM turning Curry-Klay to a dynasty rather than only winning 1 title with Dirk.

Its okay to have worse 25 year overall record but winning more titles with Dirk-Nash and then Luka-Brunson. Its tragic that Mavs let both #13 Nash and now Brunson go for free. They turned around the PHX and Knicks franchises

[ozwizard8]

How much of that is thanks to Dirk who was already drafted before Cuban bought the team?

But honestly up until the championship I liked some of the trades the Mavs would make. But after it became a joke from all perspectives. Donnie scouted Dirk and Luka, luckily Cuban listened when he wanted Luka because it would still be dark ages for Mavs. Other times like Giannis he didn't listen and it was a disaster.

The obvious thing they can do next is fire Kidd.

Luka's loyalty will be tested is he like Dirk who just wants to stay with the Mavs and hope they get it right or will he say enough is enough and leave?

Its really not that hard if someone drafted a HOFer and MVP for you. For instance if a clueless owner bought Bucks 10 years ago he'd do pretty good. If some drafted Dirk or Giannis for you, then you need to suck so much not to win games.

So Cuban isn't the worst owner but its hard to claim that he is a good one.

Dirk in an era (European) star players not leaving the team was a gem. That career alone would make 2 Finals appearances and Cuban even had Nash at young age. I dont even care about the fit, Nash could've been signed up and traded in a year or two later. Similar stuff with Brunson. He is a proven winner, improved his game each year, and only asked $55m/4 year in an expanding cap situation. That money would be like MLE now. Anyone remember GSW playing Curry for cheap due to them extending him while having ankle problems?

Btw as a bonus, Cuban **** up the championship team. He let Chandler go. Tyson Chandler would won DPOY award. He would help Knicks team to become 2nd seed in East. Cuban must have great relations with some owners in the league. Gifting out solid players right and left. In the last 20 years if you make a list, I think Nash, Brunson, Chandler would be top 10 FA acquisitions that the original team did not want to pay.

[41Dirk41]

How much of that is thanks to Dirk who was already drafted before Cuban bought the team?

But honestly up until the championship I liked some of the trades the Mavs would make. But after it became a joke from all perspectives. Donnie scouted Dirk and Luka, luckily Cuban listened when he wanted Luka because it would still be dark ages for Mavs. Other times like Giannis he didn't listen and it was a disaster.

The obvious thing they can do next is fire Kidd.

Luka's loyalty will be tested is he like Dirk who just wants to stay with the Mavs and hope they get it right or will he say enough is enough and leave?

Like i always said Cuban went cheap after the 2011... Before the title he tried in every way (he maked mistakes but happens) to win but after that he was one the worst owners in the league.

[jpengland]

2nd most games won in the NBA since 2000 (behind the Spurs)*

You can point to mistakes and faults, sure. But Cuban took the franchise and turned it around. With a few better breaks there could be more titles, sure. But he's put a winning product out there year after year.
*I think that's still accurate

You're starting to count from the point where Mavs had 2 MVP-caliber, HOFer players. Just Dirk alone would be enough to be on top for 15 years. Then getting Luka was a success but also kinda lucky because other teams should've drafted Luka without a second though. Him dropping to the 3rd is crazy.

And I dont necessarily interested in having too many mediocre seasons instead of few tanking and mostly top seed seasons. People blamed Carlisle for not getting out of 1st round for 7-8 years but those roster shouldn't even make playoffs for most years . Give me a GM turning Curry-Klay to a dynasty rather than only winning 1 title with Dirk.

Its okay to have worse 25 year overall record but winning more titles with Dirk-Nash and then Luka-Brunson. Its tragic that Mavs let both #13 Nash and now Brunson go for free. They turned around the PHX and Knicks franchises

Cuban literally took over in 2000 so that's obviously where we 'start to count'

Before Cuban the Mavs were one of the worst franchises in the league. A running joke.

Since then Dallas has won the second most games, won a title and consistently put winning teams on the floor.

As I say, Cuban has his faults and made mistakes, but overwhelmingly he has been a success.

[ozwizard8]

2nd most games won in the NBA since 2000 (behind the Spurs)*

You can point to mistakes and faults, sure. But Cuban took the franchise and turned it around. With a few better breaks there could be more titles, sure. But he's put a winning product out there year after year.
*I think that's still accurate

You're starting to count from the point where Mavs had 2 MVP-caliber, HOFer players. Just Dirk alone would be enough to be on top for 15 years. Then getting Luka was a success but also kinda lucky because other teams should've drafted Luka without a second though. Him dropping to the 3rd is crazy.

And I dont necessarily interested in having too many mediocre seasons instead of few tanking and mostly top seed seasons. People blamed Carlisle for not getting out of 1st round for 7-8 years but those roster shouldn't even make playoffs for most years . Give me a GM turning Curry-Klay to a dynasty rather than only winning 1 title with Dirk.

Its okay to have worse 25 year overall record but winning more titles with Dirk-Nash and then Luka-Brunson. Its tragic that Mavs let both #13 Nash and now Brunson go for free. They turned around the PHX and Knicks franchises

Cuban literally took over in 2000 so that's obviously where we 'start to count'
Before Cuban the Mavs were one of the worst franchises in the league. A running joke.
Since then Dallas has won the second most games, won a title and consistently put winning teams on the floor.
As I say, Cuban has his faults and made mistakes, but overwhelmingly he has been a success.

I am sorry for you that you cannot follow-up the argument. Try to read and comprehend. This is really not that complex.

- Lets assume Charllote Hornets got two #1 picks of 2022 and 2023 and drafted P. Banchero and Wenbenyama.
- On December 2023, Jordan sold the team to a new owner 'jpengland'.

What would happen between 2023 to 2040? If the team owner do not suck big time, this type of team would be destined to win lots of game. You'd be the franchise that has a top percentage of wins.

Another hypothetical example: You buy 76ers in 2016. Now you are destined to have good percentage. Or lets assume someone purchase OKC Thunder in 2023 June. Guess what it doesn't matter if they sucked last 4 years. Now on OKC thunder will win a lot of games in next decade.
So Cuban was lucky to come to a team with two future MVPs in rookie contracts.

This is the truth about the NBA. If you draft a generational talent, you need to be idiot to mess it up. Some American players like Lebron-Melo-Durant may look to get out after 9 years, however European franchise players tend to not go away in FA. Dirk stayed here as a HOFer talent and it increased W percentage as a result.

If Cuban found Dirk and Nash he'd get the credit but he didn't. He only messed up those years. Tons of mistakes, and letting Nash and Chandler go for free. Cuban heavily reduced Dirk's chances of getting multiple titles. Dirk's only title regarded as one of the best in 2010s because he never had a top level contender roster around but they somehow did it with Carlisle. That was almost a miracle run. All credit to Dirk and teammates/coach not the Cuban or GM.

[ChipotleWest]

2nd most games won in the NBA since 2000 (behind the Spurs)*

You can point to mistakes and faults, sure. But Cuban took the franchise and turned it around. With a few better breaks there could be more titles, sure. But he's put a winning product out there year after year.
*I think that's still accurate

You're starting to count from the point where Mavs had 2 MVP-caliber, HOFer players. Just Dirk alone would be enough to be on top for 15 years. Then getting Luka was a success but also kinda lucky because other teams should've drafted Luka without a second though. Him dropping to the 3rd is crazy.

And I dont necessarily interested in having too many mediocre seasons instead of few tanking and mostly top seed seasons. People blamed Carlisle for not getting out of 1st round for 7-8 years but those roster shouldn't even make playoffs for most years . Give me a GM turning Curry-Klay to a dynasty rather than only winning 1 title with Dirk.

Its okay to have worse 25 year overall record but winning more titles with Dirk-Nash and then Luka-Brunson. Its tragic that Mavs let both #13 Nash and now Brunson go for free. They turned around the PHX and Knicks franchises

Cuban literally took over in 2000 so that's obviously where we 'start to count'

Before Cuban the Mavs were one of the worst franchises in the league. A running joke.

Since then Dallas has won the second most games, won a title and consistently put winning teams on the floor.

As I say, Cuban has his faults and made mistakes, but overwhelmingly he has been a success.

From year 2000 to the championship, the Mavs averaged 51.5 wins per season
Ever since, they've averaged 40.25

Obviously the second most wins stat that try to make them look like they've been great ever since 2000 is leaning heavily on 2000-2011.

When talking about the Cowboys does anybody defend Jerry Jones and say "well he won 3 Super Bowls he must be great" no they don't everyone wants him gone. You don't get a lifetime pass for something great you did a long time ago.

Post-championship Cuban turned the Mavs back into the running joke, only thing that saved him was Luka. He could have had Giannis before but told Donnie no, he's lucky he's got Luka but will Luka be a lifetime Mav like Dirk or will he get fed up? Only time will tell. Then what, we have very few picks for the rest of the decade. He got Luka Porzingis and gave up two first round picks one we have to give to NY this year and when trading him out got none. That's just bad when you're giving up a first rounder for someone that isn't even on the roster and couldn't even get one back for that player.

[arkuo]

Depends on your goals. If he views the Mavs as a business (which he should), then he turned a massive profit. F*ck what everybody else thinks. He's what, 65? 70? He's done. People think social media and message boards are the in thing in life. Billionaires like that, they just laugh into the sunset. Everything else is just white noise. Speaking from experience.

At the end of the day you base it off his goals. Earn from the business has to be priority 1A. And so far i think he's done very well in that category. Now if some fans aren't happy with the team's moves, then let them cope. It will get better in time. It's what I do to my businesses. Customers dont like my product, then buy another product. No one's forcing you. My employees don't like long hours? Then find another job. Another guy will take your place. Again, no one's forcing you.

[jpengland]

Yeah. I'm done on this thread.

Noone is giving Cuban a 'lifetime pass', noone is claiming he's a perfect owner.

But the facts are the facts and that is that he has run one of the most successful franchises both on and off the court whilst in the role and he deserves a lot of credit for that.

[ChipotleWest]

Yeah. I'm done on this thread.

Noone is giving Cuban a 'lifetime pass', noone is claiming he's a perfect owner.

But the facts are the facts and that is that he has run one of the most successful franchises both on and off the court whilst in the role and he deserves a lot of credit for that.

On and off the court? What about the sexual misconduct allegations? You just got mad that I proved the success was all pre-championship, 12 years ago. If they didn't do so much winning in that time period they wouldn't have second most wins. Is 40.25 wins per year good? 41 wins per season would be .500. Cuban was the one who read the CBA freaked out and blew up a championship team and tried to sell it to us that we couldn't repeat. It is 100% on him. It's been a mediocre franchise ever since even with Luka except for the one WCF appearance and I'm still not sure how they beat the Suns with Luka, Brunson and Dimwiddie as their best players.

Why are you desperate to combine now with 12 years ago and say "look at all this winning" when you know it's not true. If a team goes 73-9 one year and 30-52 the next that's still 103 wins and you'd average over 50 wins per season. But obviously all the wins came in the first year to make that happen. It is the same thing. What you're doing is dishonest. This is exactly what I'm talking about when I made this thread, people will reach just to praise Cuban despite him no longer deserving it. In 2012 he deserved it but not anymore.

[GermanFan120]

Yeah. I'm done on this thread.

Noone is giving Cuban a 'lifetime pass', noone is claiming he's a perfect owner.

But the facts are the facts and that is that he has run one of the most successful franchises both on and off the court whilst in the role and he deserves a lot of credit for that.

I am with you on this.

People forget easily. And people take everything for granted.

Cuban is not perfect. But he is not your below average owner either.

[ChipotleWest]

Yeah. I'm done on this thread.

Noone is giving Cuban a 'lifetime pass', noone is claiming he's a perfect owner.

But the facts are the facts and that is that he has run one of the most successful franchises both on and off the court whilst in the role and he deserves a lot of credit for that.

I am with you on this.

People forget easily. And people take everything for granted.

Cuban is not perfect. But he is not your below average owner either.

You're not giving enough credit to Dirk, who you wouldn't be here without him. No fans would.

Since the championship 12 years ago, he's by definition below average because the Mavs have averaged 40.25 wins per season. So again I ask how long of a pass does he get for that great decade?

[GermanFan120]

Yeah. I'm done on this thread.

Noone is giving Cuban a 'lifetime pass', noone is claiming he's a perfect owner.

But the facts are the facts and that is that he has run one of the most successful franchises both on and off the court whilst in the role and he deserves a lot of credit for that.

I am with you on this.

People forget easily. And people take everything for granted.

Cuban is not perfect. But he is not your below average owner either.

You're not giving enough credit to Dirk, who you wouldn't be here without him. No fans would.

I do give credit where credit is due. Same thing can be said about you not giving enough credit to Cuban.

[ChipotleWest]

I am with you on this.

People forget easily. And people take everything for granted.

Cuban is not perfect. But he is not your below average owner either.

You're not giving enough credit to Dirk, who you wouldn't be here without him. No fans would.

I do give credit where credit is due. Same thing can be said about you not giving enough credit to Cuban.

He doesn't deserve any since the championship. Before yes, but there's no lifetime achievement awards.

[GermanFan120]

You're not giving enough credit to Dirk, who you wouldn't be here without him. No fans would.

I do give credit where credit is due. Same thing can be said about you not giving enough credit to Cuban.

He doesn't deserve any since the championship. Before yes, but there's no lifetime achievement awards.

The level of love or the level of pass depends on when you became a Mavs fan.
I have been a Mavs fan since Cuban took over.

Let me give you an assumption to help you understand, had I only become a mavs fan yesterday after they beat the Pistons, I would tend to agree with you too that Cuban and Mavs are below average product.

[ChipotleWest]

I do give credit where credit is due. Same thing can be said about you not giving enough credit to Cuban.

He doesn't deserve any since the championship. Before yes, but there's no lifetime achievement awards.

The level of love or the level of pass depends on when you became a Mavs fan.
I have been a Mavs fan since Cuban took over.

Let me give you an assumption to help you understand, had I only become a mavs fan yesterday after they beat the Pistons, I would tend to agree with you too that Cuban and Mavs are below average product.

Then you agree actually. You're just reminiscing about prime Dirk and giving the credit to Cuban for some reason.

You don't think Dirk would have been great under any owner?

Cuban was not the owner when the Mavs drafted Dirk or when they acquired Nash. He was however the owner that wouldn't pay Nash.

[GermanFan120]

He doesn't deserve any since the championship. Before yes, but there's no lifetime achievement awards.

The level of love or the level of pass depends on when you became a Mavs fan.
I have been a Mavs fan since Cuban took over.

Let me give you an assumption to help you understand, had I only become a mavs fan yesterday after they beat the Pistons, I would tend to agree with you too that Cuban and Mavs are below average product.

Then you agree actually. You're just reminiscing about prime Dirk and giving the credit to Cuban for some reason.

You don't think Dirk would have been great under any owner?

Cuban was not the owner when the Mavs drafted Dirk or when they acquired Nash. He was however the owner that wouldn't pay Nash.

I will try to answer your questions 1 by 1.

1. I am not happy about Mavs front office along with Cuban's decision in recent years.
2. No, I don't think Dirk would be great had he been drafted by any team/owner, such as Clippers or Vancouver Grizzlies. This is where I give credit where it is due.
3. Not paying Nash hurt me because I am a huge Nash fan. But at the time I supported the idea and the next year Mavs proved to be better without Nash. That's how we beat the Spurs in 2006. This is again fact rather than opinion.