RS 23/24 - Mavs @ Spurs (Tuesd., 8:30PMEST)

[daoneandonly]

WIn is a win, but this team needs to have more of sense of urgency. Every game counts, play hard no matter who is across the court on the other side

[Bob8]

We understand theory, but are trying to explain to you that the player, who's averaging 4 points and 0.7 3s is not the player that will bring defensive C out of the paint.

Check his numbers in April 2022, and then check his numbers in games 2+3 against UTA when Gobert didn't leave the paint for him.
Maxi may very well be cooked, but until it's certain, he's the team's only hope as a stretch and they may need a stretch 5.

I had impression that we're talking about current version of Kleber?

You have found his best games of his career, but don't you think that you still proved my point, nobody is defending Kleber with defensive C, even if he's hot? How likely that will change this year, when Kleber has regressed in everything?

Kleber has extremely slow release, not very high one and has to have his feet firmly set to have a chance to score. That's why he needs extremely open shots to even make attempts.

[ozwizard8]

A stretch 5 shooting like this, is not a stretch 5, it's really not hard to understand, not even to us casuals.

https://preview.redd.it/shot-charts-of-all-our-players-in-rotation-v0-6khpsm8o5fpc1.jpg?width=2400&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=64a90d51819858e49449ebfb7e28daa07a7660c7

The main argument is +27 shows he was not a negative against Spurs. Who cares how many 3pt he made? Only casual fans.

It is a casual mindset. Even without scoring 40%, a stretch-5 still takes other teams big men outside of the paint. Maxi Kleber is not sagged off like D.Powell or Nurkic.

***
We already acknowledge Maxi is not playing good this year. Not shooting good. So your picture is showing a below-average regular season shooting. Maxi shot much better in last 2 playoffs. He was 40% and 44%. I am optimistic that he can ramp up. No one can not guarantee it.

You're confusing yourself with +/- arguments and then call other people casuals. Now that's a great paradox. I already gave the +/- answer to other poster, so i'm not going to repeat myself over and over.

But i'll say this gain, doesn't matter if Maxi shoots 80% from range, Nuggets didn't respect his role, Spurs didn't respect his role because he's not taking those open looks. That's not an asset for the playoffs it's the opposite. PJ and DJJ are already playing their roles better than Maxi but Kidd is not playing DJJ for some reason in the clutch.

I also showed NETrtg lineups for Mavs, best lineups don't include Maxi for a reason. If you go down by minutes. Those lineups are

Min 60 mins
K. Irving - D. Jones Jr. - P. Washington - L. Doncic - D. Gafford +25

Min 70 mins
K. Irving - P. Washington - L. Doncic - J. Green - D. Lively II +13

Min 80 mins
K. Irving - P. Washington - L. Doncic - J. Green - D. Lively II +13

These are the highest minutes played lineups for Mavs. And it's horrible how many lineup changes they already had.

First of all, main argument was about Maxi's minutes last night.
In fact his minutes were positive for us. +27 is no joke for a 6-pt win. If you have any arguments you should lay it down.

Spurs respected Maxi, which is evident in the box score.
If Spurs treated Maxi like a D.Powell, Gobert, Josh Giddey, then they'd sag him off completely. They did not do such thing. Maxi offers spacing as a stretch-5. Many players can do that for sure. PJ can do that as well offensively. However, its hard to not get abused on defensive side as a stretch-5.

- Spurs were not able to punish Mavs for using a smaller stretch-5 on offense.
- The defensive schemes of Spurs did work better in no Kleber minutes. (Spurs were +21 for the minutes with no Kleber)

[ozwizard8]

We understand theory, but are trying to explain to you that the player, who's averaging 4 points and 0.7 3s is not the player that will bring defensive C out of the paint.

Check his numbers in April 2022, and then check his numbers in games 2+3 against UTA when Gobert didn't leave the paint for him.
Maxi may very well be cooked, but until it's certain, he's the team's only hope as a stretch and they may need a stretch 5.

I had impression that we're talking about current version of Kleber?

You have found his best games of his career, but don't you think that you still proved my point, nobody is defending Kleber with defensive C, even if he's hot? How likely that will change this year, when Kleber has regressed in everything?

Kleber has extremely slow release, not very high one abd has to have his feet firmly set to have a chance to score. That's why he needs extremely open shots to even make attempts.

Kleber doesn't need to score 25-pts to make other teams cover him.
No team is leaving Kleber wide-open like he's Powell, Gobert, Gafford or J.Giddey.
Kleber is on top, then Gobert-Wemby etc will come out of the paint. At least come to the FT area. And that opens a lot of things for Mavs offense. Kleber was +27 for this reason last night. Casuals may only look at how many points he scored though.
The main thing is being a stretch-5 without getting abused defensively.

Watch on YouTube

Kleber's 3-pt mechanics is fine for a big man. Is he good enough defensively to play 35 mpg? No.

https://youtu.be/P1lshSvFIi8?si=5rXSUMlg5pdL2eQ4&t=518

[Mavrelous]

We understand theory, but are trying to explain to you that the player, who's averaging 4 points and 0.7 3s is not the player that will bring defensive C out of the paint.

Check his numbers in April 2022, and then check his numbers in games 2+3 against UTA when Gobert didn't leave the paint for him.
Maxi may very well be cooked, but until it's certain, he's the team's only hope as a stretch and they may need a stretch 5.

I had impression that we're talking about current version of Kleber?

You have found his best games of his career, but don't you think that you still proved my point, nobody is defending Kleber with defensive C, even if he's hot? How likely that will change this year, when Kleber has regressed in everything?

Kleber has extremely slow release, not very high one and has to have his feet firmly set to have a chance to score. That's why he needs extremely open shots to even make attempts.

He may be cooked, but Maxi disappeared and looked lost also in 22, and came up big, if he still has something left, they should try to explore it, he brings something that doesn't exist on this roster, especially given they have a big physical forward now in PJW.

[Bob8]

Check his numbers in April 2022, and then check his numbers in games 2+3 against UTA when Gobert didn't leave the paint for him.
Maxi may very well be cooked, but until it's certain, he's the team's only hope as a stretch and they may need a stretch 5.

I had impression that we're talking about current version of Kleber?

You have found his best games of his career, but don't you think that you still proved my point, nobody is defending Kleber with defensive C, even if he's hot? How likely that will change this year, when Kleber has regressed in everything?

Kleber has extremely slow release, not very high one and has to have his feet firmly set to have a chance to score. That's why he needs extremely open shots to even make attempts.

He may be cooked, but Maxi disappeared and looked lost also in 22, and came up big, if he still has something left, they should try to explore it, he brings something that doesn't exist on this roster, especially given they have a big physical forward now in PJW.

No problem, if Kidd tries him on C for very limited time, if things don't work. But just look at how Mavs D and rebounding improved after the trade. The difference is huge. That's why I hope seeing Kleber as little as possible playing C.

[Archx]

The main argument is +27 shows he was not a negative against Spurs. Who cares how many 3pt he made? Only casual fans.

It is a casual mindset. Even without scoring 40%, a stretch-5 still takes other teams big men outside of the paint. Maxi Kleber is not sagged off like D.Powell or Nurkic.

***
We already acknowledge Maxi is not playing good this year. Not shooting good. So your picture is showing a below-average regular season shooting. Maxi shot much better in last 2 playoffs. He was 40% and 44%. I am optimistic that he can ramp up. No one can not guarantee it.

You're confusing yourself with +/- arguments and then call other people casuals. Now that's a great paradox. I already gave the +/- answer to other poster, so i'm not going to repeat myself over and over.

But i'll say this gain, doesn't matter if Maxi shoots 80% from range, Nuggets didn't respect his role, Spurs didn't respect his role because he's not taking those open looks. That's not an asset for the playoffs it's the opposite. PJ and DJJ are already playing their roles better than Maxi but Kidd is not playing DJJ for some reason in the clutch.

I also showed NETrtg lineups for Mavs, best lineups don't include Maxi for a reason. If you go down by minutes. Those lineups are

Min 60 mins
K. Irving - D. Jones Jr. - P. Washington - L. Doncic - D. Gafford +25

Min 70 mins
K. Irving - P. Washington - L. Doncic - J. Green - D. Lively II +13

Min 80 mins
K. Irving - P. Washington - L. Doncic - J. Green - D. Lively II +13

These are the highest minutes played lineups for Mavs. And it's horrible how many lineup changes they already had.

First of all, main argument was about Maxi's minutes last night.
In fact his minutes were positive for us. +27 is no joke for a 6-pt win. If you have any arguments you should lay it down.

Spurs respected Maxi, which is evident in the box score.
If Spurs treated Maxi like a D.Powell, Gobert, Josh Giddey, then they'd sag him off completely. They did not do such thing. Maxi offers spacing as a stretch-5. Many players can do that for sure. PJ can do that as well offensively. However, its hard to not get abused on defensive side as a stretch-5.

- Spurs were not able to punish using a smaller stretch-5 on offense.
- The defensive schemes of Spurs did work better in no Kleber minutes. (Spurs were +21 for the minutes with no Kleber)

Maxi played vs Spurs bench units, which had no bigs and were horrible. He didn't play a lot with Luka (who slightly tanked starters +/- with his horrible shooting).

Maxi also ended with 4 assists, 5 points and 3 fouls one of which also resulted in AND1. So, what did he do to deserve such a high praise for +27?? He guarded Wemby in a minimal stretch, which was Spurs highest threat for Mavs big guys and then he did what else?

You say Spurs respected his shooting? I suggest you check the replay and you'll see how far back his defender actually was. Maxi also passed on a ton of open looks for no reason at all.

This 5 out offense looks great on paper and it works for teams like Celtics and it also worked for Mavs specially during Rick's days. But Mavs killed the Spurs in PnR with Gafford and Luka to the point that Spurs defense had to bring up Gafford's defender (Wemby) and try to stay with Doncic. So if you think 5 out offense is better or does more damage to teams, then you're simply wrong. And that's the reason why i showed you Mavs best lineups to prove a point with argument, which again you said i didn't provide any evidence.

You simply don't understand that Mavs best offense is NOT and i'll say again, IS NOT, 5 out, instead it's PnR threat with BOTH centers either Lively or Gafford. Because Luka is THAT LETHAL in PnR. Mavs starting unit would have much higher +/- if Luka didn't miss record number of shots and it would also negate Maxi's +27, which would also be as a consequence much lower probably.

Here you also have quick highlights and tell me how much did Maxi influence the game for those +27? Pay close attention and you'll notice, like i said for the most game, he wasn't even on the floor when Wemby was. And also watch how Spurs were guarding him.

Watch on YouTube

[Mavrelous]

I had impression that we're talking about current version of Kleber?

You have found his best games of his career, but don't you think that you still proved my point, nobody is defending Kleber with defensive C, even if he's hot? How likely that will change this year, when Kleber has regressed in everything?

Kleber has extremely slow release, not very high one and has to have his feet firmly set to have a chance to score. That's why he needs extremely open shots to even make attempts.

He may be cooked, but Maxi disappeared and looked lost also in 22, and came up big, if he still has something left, they should try to explore it, he brings something that doesn't exist on this roster, especially given they have a big physical forward now in PJW.

No problem, if Kidd tries him on C for very limited time, if things don't work. But just look at how Mavs D and rebounding improved after the trade. The difference is huge. That's why I hope seeing Kleber as little as possible playing C.

Absolutely, team's identity now is physical, rebounding and paint protecting, they also don't switch much to protect Kyrie and Luka, and leave weak shooters on the perimeter, but, if in certain matchup you want to try to switch heavy, and space the floor for more room for Luka/Kyrie to operate, you should keep the option available, Maxi/PJW frontcourt should be good enough for this if Maxi finds his shot.

[Swish77]

You're confusing yourself with +/- arguments and then call other people casuals. Now that's a great paradox. I already gave the +/- answer to other poster, so i'm not going to repeat myself over and over.

But i'll say this gain, doesn't matter if Maxi shoots 80% from range, Nuggets didn't respect his role, Spurs didn't respect his role because he's not taking those open looks. That's not an asset for the playoffs it's the opposite. PJ and DJJ are already playing their roles better than Maxi but Kidd is not playing DJJ for some reason in the clutch.

I also showed NETrtg lineups for Mavs, best lineups don't include Maxi for a reason. If you go down by minutes. Those lineups are

Min 60 mins
K. Irving - D. Jones Jr. - P. Washington - L. Doncic - D. Gafford +25

Min 70 mins
K. Irving - P. Washington - L. Doncic - J. Green - D. Lively II +13

Min 80 mins
K. Irving - P. Washington - L. Doncic - J. Green - D. Lively II +13

These are the highest minutes played lineups for Mavs. And it's horrible how many lineup changes they already had.

First of all, main argument was about Maxi's minutes last night.
In fact his minutes were positive for us. +27 is no joke for a 6-pt win. If you have any arguments you should lay it down.

Spurs respected Maxi, which is evident in the box score.
If Spurs treated Maxi like a D.Powell, Gobert, Josh Giddey, then they'd sag him off completely. They did not do such thing. Maxi offers spacing as a stretch-5. Many players can do that for sure. PJ can do that as well offensively. However, its hard to not get abused on defensive side as a stretch-5.

- Spurs were not able to punish using a smaller stretch-5 on offense.
- The defensive schemes of Spurs did work better in no Kleber minutes. (Spurs were +21 for the minutes with no Kleber)

Maxi played vs Spurs bench units, which had no bigs and were horrible. He didn't play a lot with Luka (who slightly tanked starters +/- with his horrible shooting).

Maxi also ended with 4 assists, 5 points and 3 fouls one of which also resulted in AND1. So, what did he do to deserve such a high praise for +27?? He guarded Wemby in a minimal stretch, which was Spurs highest threat for Mavs big guys and then he did what else?

You say Spurs respected his shooting? I suggest you check the replay and you'll see how far back his defender actually was. Maxi also passed on a ton of open looks for no reason at all.

This 5 out offense looks great on paper and it works for teams like Celtics and it also worked for Mavs specially during Rick's days. But Mavs killed the Spurs in PnR with Gafford and Luka to the point that Spurs defense had to bring up Gafford's defender (Wemby) and try to stay with Doncic. So if you think 5 out offense is better or does more damage to teams, then you're simply wrong. And that's the reason why i showed you Mavs best lineups to prove a point with argument, which again you said i didn't provide any evidence.

You simply don't understand that Mavs best offense is NOT and i'll say again, IS NOT, 5 out, instead it's PnR threat with BOTH centers either Lively or Gafford. Because Luka is THAT LETHAL in PnR. Mavs starting unit would have much higher +/- if Luka didn't miss record number of shots and it would also negate Maxi's +27, which would also be as a consequence much lower probably.

Here you also have quick highlights and tell me how much did Maxi influence the game for those +27? Pay close attention and you'll notice, like i said for the most game, he wasn't even on the floor when Wemby was. And also watch how Spurs were guarding him.

Watch on YouTube

I watched the entire game.Maxi played what the defense gave him. Did yes pass up open shots? Yes but he's always done that at times. But we don't need Maxi's scoring we need his defense. I thought he played well tbh. I believe he's still a stretch 5. He spreads to floor really really well for Luka and Kyrie. But I really like it when He's in the game with DL or DG. I'm not worry about Luka missing a ton of shots it happens its the NBA. Ill take a couple bad games from Luka the great games out weight the bad games by far.

[41Dirk41]

Incredible triple-double stat line by Luka! He really deserves a good team around. FO this year really did nice moves after the last year's disaster. There were some mistakes, and some overpay, but overall it is nice to have Exum coming from bench to fill a portion of Brunson-Dinwiddie role, and now we have 2 solid centers in Lively+Gafford. This is the 1st year Luka having good centers in the roster. I only hope less THJ going forward. Maybe more Hardy?

PJ and Dante are elite role players.
They fight every possessions, sometimes they lack on shooting but it's ok.

Maxi at the C again. It's embarassing. We lose rebounds and rim protector for 1 triple in 22minutes.OMG.

Maxi Kleber is not back in his form of 2022 playoffs. However, he is doing better than most casual fans see.
We won Spurs game by 6 points where Maxi Kleber posted +/- rating of +27.
This stat may have some flaws but this kind of discrepancy indicates that Maxi Kleber minutes were helpful for the team. +27 doesn't mean he scored many 3pt shots, but his minutes objectively helped the team.

On offense, he brings better spacing. Without him scoring the 3s, he still contributes with movement and spacing to the team. When Gafford-Lively plays, other teams bring help to the ball handler more. This ball handler can be Luka-Kyrie-Exum. When Maxi plays, there are vastly more space inside and when help defense arrives, there is an open 3 available.

On defense, he used to be more switchable than some centers. He doesn't look as good as he was. But the idea is basically having worse defense/rebounding and trading that with superior offense.

I trust Maxi to gear up in playoffs. Maxi was solid in the 2022 playoffs. PJ-Gafford-Lively-DJJ dont have playoff experience so if we can improve Maxi's form, he'll be an asset in playoffs whether it's 15 or 22 mpg based on the matchup.

The casual fan here is absolutely you, +/- doesn't mean anything in a single game.
Powell had good +/- numbers but it happens when you play with the best players on the team (Luka and Irving coff coff).
Maxi can only play at the 4, with Lively and Gafford is just stupid let him play center.
No rebounds, no rim protector and no offensive game.

People falling in love with him 1 game every 30 where he makes 3s, the others 29 he is just a mediocre role player always injuried.

You are starting yet another losing battle in your career... it will end badly this time too, but this time don't delete your signature

[41Dirk41]

I had impression that we're talking about current version of Kleber?

You have found his best games of his career, but don't you think that you still proved my point, nobody is defending Kleber with defensive C, even if he's hot? How likely that will change this year, when Kleber has regressed in everything?

Kleber has extremely slow release, not very high one and has to have his feet firmly set to have a chance to score. That's why he needs extremely open shots to even make attempts.

He may be cooked, but Maxi disappeared and looked lost also in 22, and came up big, if he still has something left, they should try to explore it, he brings something that doesn't exist on this roster, especially given they have a big physical forward now in PJW.

No problem, if Kidd tries him on C for very limited time, if things don't work. But just look at how Mavs D and rebounding improved after the trade. The difference is huge. That's why I hope seeing Kleber as little as possible playing C.

This.

We need Gafford and Lively on the court, if things don't work for some reason i'm ok with Maxi experiment at the 5. But not a systematic solution every game.

And right now they work absolutely great.

[Archx]

First of all, main argument was about Maxi's minutes last night.
In fact his minutes were positive for us. +27 is no joke for a 6-pt win. If you have any arguments you should lay it down.

Spurs respected Maxi, which is evident in the box score.
If Spurs treated Maxi like a D.Powell, Gobert, Josh Giddey, then they'd sag him off completely. They did not do such thing. Maxi offers spacing as a stretch-5. Many players can do that for sure. PJ can do that as well offensively. However, its hard to not get abused on defensive side as a stretch-5.

- Spurs were not able to punish using a smaller stretch-5 on offense.
- The defensive schemes of Spurs did work better in no Kleber minutes. (Spurs were +21 for the minutes with no Kleber)

Maxi played vs Spurs bench units, which had no bigs and were horrible. He didn't play a lot with Luka (who slightly tanked starters +/- with his horrible shooting).

Maxi also ended with 4 assists, 5 points and 3 fouls one of which also resulted in AND1. So, what did he do to deserve such a high praise for +27?? He guarded Wemby in a minimal stretch, which was Spurs highest threat for Mavs big guys and then he did what else?

You say Spurs respected his shooting? I suggest you check the replay and you'll see how far back his defender actually was. Maxi also passed on a ton of open looks for no reason at all.

This 5 out offense looks great on paper and it works for teams like Celtics and it also worked for Mavs specially during Rick's days. But Mavs killed the Spurs in PnR with Gafford and Luka to the point that Spurs defense had to bring up Gafford's defender (Wemby) and try to stay with Doncic. So if you think 5 out offense is better or does more damage to teams, then you're simply wrong. And that's the reason why i showed you Mavs best lineups to prove a point with argument, which again you said i didn't provide any evidence.

You simply don't understand that Mavs best offense is NOT and i'll say again, IS NOT, 5 out, instead it's PnR threat with BOTH centers either Lively or Gafford. Because Luka is THAT LETHAL in PnR. Mavs starting unit would have much higher +/- if Luka didn't miss record number of shots and it would also negate Maxi's +27, which would also be as a consequence much lower probably.

Here you also have quick highlights and tell me how much did Maxi influence the game for those +27? Pay close attention and you'll notice, like i said for the most game, he wasn't even on the floor when Wemby was. And also watch how Spurs were guarding him.

Watch on YouTube

I watched the entire game.Maxi played what the defense gave him. Did yes pass up open shots? Yes but he's always done that at times. But we don't need Maxi's scoring we need his defense. I thought he played well tbh. I believe he's still a stretch 5. He spreads to floor really really well for Luka and Kyrie. But I really like it when He's in the game with DL or DG. I'm not worry about Luka missing a ton of shots it happens its the NBA. Ill take a couple bad games from Luka the great games out weight the bad games by far.

Maxi at 5 is good for limited time if he's taking the shots, that's the entire argument here, but he's not. Nuggets didn't respect his shooting and neither did the Spurs. So what are your options then? You go big with more athletic units and more traditional center or keep forcing the issue with Maxi? Problem is, he's not a good rim protector and rebounder, which both Lively and Gafford are. So, would you sacrifice a bit of offense in order to maximize defense and rebounding? I say yes to that.

Why i prefer Gaff and Lively over Maxi? Because Mavs tried that for the past 2 seasons and they were bottom 5 team in rim protection and dead last rebounding team... again, TWO years in a row.

Mavs won vs Nuggets with defense and rebounds, they won their 2nd game in a row with defense. Which further proves my point that all out offense works for some teams but not for Mavs, which now we have large sample size over two seasons to prove the point.

[ChipotleWest]

We already have two of the greatest scorers in NBA history on our team, the fact that we're benching both centers at the end of games for a guy who might or might not give us one three per game makes absolutely no sense. You have to surround Luka with defenders who can rebound. It is beyond idiotic to have both centers on the bench and only Maxi in in the last 5 minutes of a game which Kidd did against Denver. At least have one center in and Maxi playing the 4. But I think we'd be just fine if he was benched like Powell honestly.

[Bob8]

Kleber is in 18.5 min averaging 1.6/2.9/1.5 with 0.2 3s, FG% 20; 3pts% 12 in March. Now we can continue discussion how good stretch 5 he is.

[41Dirk41]

Maxi and Powell at the 5 maked us in past years the worst rebounding/rim protector team in the league... I don't want to see them play center even if they can shoot 70% from 3.

[Swish77]

We already have two of the greatest scorers in NBA history on our team, the fact that we're benching both centers at the end of games for a guy who might or might not give us one three per game makes absolutely no sense. You have to surround Luka with defenders who can rebound. It is beyond idiotic to have both centers on the bench and only Maxi in in the last 5 minutes of a game which Kidd did against Denver. At least have one center in and Maxi playing the 4. But I think we'd be just fine if he was benched like Powell honestly.

You said we have 2 of the greatest scorers of all time right? So why does it matter if Maxi hits 3's or not? Maxi isnt in the game to score. Just like PJ and his 3 point shooting its the same for Maxi. Maxi's game isnt go out and knock down 3's he game is defense. always had been since he got in the league.

[ChipotleWest]

We already have two of the greatest scorers in NBA history on our team, the fact that we're benching both centers at the end of games for a guy who might or might not give us one three per game makes absolutely no sense. You have to surround Luka with defenders who can rebound. It is beyond idiotic to have both centers on the bench and only Maxi in in the last 5 minutes of a game which Kidd did against Denver. At least have one center in and Maxi playing the 4. But I think we'd be just fine if he was benched like Powell honestly.

You said we have 2 of the greatest scorers of all time right? So why does it matter if Maxi hits 3's or not? Maxi isnt in the game to score. Just like PJ and his 3 point shooting its the same for Maxi. Maxi's game isnt go out and knock down 3's he game is defense. always had been since he got in the league.

Obviously we have better defenders at center. The idea that we need to go small to match up with other teams is a proven failed logic. Avery did that in 2007 and it got us beaten by #8 seed when we were the #1 seed. Also Maxi didn't stop Boston or Cleveland from bombing 3's against us when Kidd played him over Gafford. You don't remove a strength to try to fix a weakness. I'd rather have PJ over Maxi for defense at the 4 and either Gafford or Lively at the 5, you're also killing your rebounding especially at the 5.. Give him backup 4 minutes when PJ's on the bench that's it.

Also maybe just maybe he's not the defender he was at 27 right now at 32?

[Swish77]

Maxi played vs Spurs bench units, which had no bigs and were horrible. He didn't play a lot with Luka (who slightly tanked starters +/- with his horrible shooting).

Maxi also ended with 4 assists, 5 points and 3 fouls one of which also resulted in AND1. So, what did he do to deserve such a high praise for +27?? He guarded Wemby in a minimal stretch, which was Spurs highest threat for Mavs big guys and then he did what else?

You say Spurs respected his shooting? I suggest you check the replay and you'll see how far back his defender actually was. Maxi also passed on a ton of open looks for no reason at all.

This 5 out offense looks great on paper and it works for teams like Celtics and it also worked for Mavs specially during Rick's days. But Mavs killed the Spurs in PnR with Gafford and Luka to the point that Spurs defense had to bring up Gafford's defender (Wemby) and try to stay with Doncic. So if you think 5 out offense is better or does more damage to teams, then you're simply wrong. And that's the reason why i showed you Mavs best lineups to prove a point with argument, which again you said i didn't provide any evidence.

You simply don't understand that Mavs best offense is NOT and i'll say again, IS NOT, 5 out, instead it's PnR threat with BOTH centers either Lively or Gafford. Because Luka is THAT LETHAL in PnR. Mavs starting unit would have much higher +/- if Luka didn't miss record number of shots and it would also negate Maxi's +27, which would also be as a consequence much lower probably.

Here you also have quick highlights and tell me how much did Maxi influence the game for those +27? Pay close attention and you'll notice, like i said for the most game, he wasn't even on the floor when Wemby was. And also watch how Spurs were guarding him.

Watch on YouTube

I watched the entire game.Maxi played what the defense gave him. Did yes pass up open shots? Yes but he's always done that at times. But we don't need Maxi's scoring we need his defense. I thought he played well tbh. I believe he's still a stretch 5. He spreads to floor really really well for Luka and Kyrie. But I really like it when He's in the game with DL or DG. I'm not worry about Luka missing a ton of shots it happens its the NBA. Ill take a couple bad games from Luka the great games out weight the bad games by far.

Maxi at 5 is good for limited time if he's taking the shots, that's the entire argument here, but he's not. Nuggets didn't respect his shooting and neither did the Spurs. So what are your options then? You go big with more athletic units and more traditional center or keep forcing the issue with Maxi? Problem is, he's not a good rim protector and rebounder, which both Lively and Gafford are. So, would you sacrifice a bit of offense in order to maximize defense and rebounding? I say yes to that.

Why i prefer Gaff and Lively over Maxi? Because Mavs tried that for the past 2 seasons and they were bottom 5 team in rim protection and dead last rebounding team... again, TWO years in a row.

Mavs won vs Nuggets with defense and rebounds, they won their 2nd game in a row with defense. Which further proves my point that all out offense works for some teams but not for Mavs, which now we have large sample size over two seasons to prove the point.

Cool. Id still play Maxi at the 5 in some games. Your not forcing the issue with Maxi like come on get real. If i'm Kidd I'm rolling with maxi at the 5 in some games. There's no issue doing it. Like I SAID I enjoyed the Maxi at the 4 with DL or DG But sometimes Kidd has to roll with Maxi at the 5. This part isn't for you but I Don't understand the way fans are like oh this player isn't hitting 3's we need to bench him. MAVS need to learn to win when the 3's aren't falling. Benching guys bc they dont hit 3's is outrageous. There were people on X last night calling for Luka to be benched bc he's missing shots Like really? Come on.

[ChipotleWest]

I watched the entire game.Maxi played what the defense gave him. Did yes pass up open shots? Yes but he's always done that at times. But we don't need Maxi's scoring we need his defense. I thought he played well tbh. I believe he's still a stretch 5. He spreads to floor really really well for Luka and Kyrie. But I really like it when He's in the game with DL or DG. I'm not worry about Luka missing a ton of shots it happens its the NBA. Ill take a couple bad games from Luka the great games out weight the bad games by far.

Maxi at 5 is good for limited time if he's taking the shots, that's the entire argument here, but he's not. Nuggets didn't respect his shooting and neither did the Spurs. So what are your options then? You go big with more athletic units and more traditional center or keep forcing the issue with Maxi? Problem is, he's not a good rim protector and rebounder, which both Lively and Gafford are. So, would you sacrifice a bit of offense in order to maximize defense and rebounding? I say yes to that.

Why i prefer Gaff and Lively over Maxi? Because Mavs tried that for the past 2 seasons and they were bottom 5 team in rim protection and dead last rebounding team... again, TWO years in a row.

Mavs won vs Nuggets with defense and rebounds, they won their 2nd game in a row with defense. Which further proves my point that all out offense works for some teams but not for Mavs, which now we have large sample size over two seasons to prove the point.

Cool. Id still play Maxi at the 5 in some games. Your not forcing the issue with Maxi like come on get real. If i'm Kidd I'm rolling with maxi at the 5 in some games. There's no issue doing it. Like I SAID I enjoyed the Maxi at the 4 with DL or DG But sometimes Kidd has to roll with Maxi at the 5. This part isn't for you but I Don't understand the way fans are like oh this player isn't hitting 3's we need to bench him. MAVS need to learn to win when the 3's aren't falling. Benching guys bc they dont hit 3's is outrageous. There were people on X last night calling for Luka to be benched bc he's missing shots Like really? Come on.

"There's no issue in doing it"

Except rebounding, interior defense, interior offense.

We beat the defending champs and got 59 rebounds against them and it wasn't because of Maxi. Guess who was playing the second half of the 4th when we blew a 13 point lead?

[tleikheen]

I keep wondering if you're watching the same games as the rest of us in regards to Maxi. He is not meeting the eye test. Just like THJ we're watching them closer because we want to see if the other team is going to attack them and in Kleber's case does it look like the Mavs are playing 4 on 5 against the other team.
It's the playoff push and I want to see the core 7 getting the minutes and playing time together . (Luka ,Kyrie,Dante,Gaff,Lively,PJ,& DJJ) with Green & THJ getting the 8th & 9th minutes , THEN Maxi as the 10th man . This is it going into playoff position.