Moderator: JaysRule15
Randle McMurphy wrote:
And while I presume he wasn't asked this, they didn't use Francis because they wanted to save him for a game in two days. Such garbage.
Raptors Realtor wrote:Randle McMurphy wrote:
And while I presume he wasn't asked this, they didn't use Francis because they wanted to save him for a game in two days. Such garbage.
Varsho should have batted after hitting 2 homers, no question... but I can see why they didn't go to Francis. It's not like he's a lockdown, strike em out pitcher and he has zero experience in late game high leverage situations.
Randle McMurphy wrote:Raptors Realtor wrote:Randle McMurphy wrote:
And while I presume he wasn't asked this, they didn't use Francis because they wanted to save him for a game in two days. Such garbage.
Varsho should have batted after hitting 2 homers, no question... but I can see why they didn't go to Francis. It's not like he's a lockdown, strike em out pitcher and he has zero experience in late game high leverage situations.
Yes, but taking your chances on that is still better than watching Mayza get destroyed by Judge in high leverage yet again. We effectively just decided to give the game away once Judge came up in favour of trying to win on Friday.
Randle McMurphy wrote:Raps in 4 wrote:Randle McMurphy wrote:The trade was always a good one though it becomes completely obvious that is the case with even decent offensive years by Varsho and Kirk (which both are fully capable of).
It really wasn't a great trade if last year was the barometer. Moreno had a better season than Varsho, while also being 4 years younger. Varsho would need to significantly outproduce Moreno for the trade to be a win for us. If they continue to produce at a similar level (or if Moreno leapfrogs him), Arizona won the trade.
The Jays have 2 better catchers than Moreno (including one that is basically his age) and got the best defensive player in baseball out of the deal. Long-term was always gonna be the issue with it, but unless Moreno somehow learns to hit for any power (which doesn’t appear likely), I’m not too worried about this one long-term either.
Raptors Realtor wrote:Randle McMurphy wrote:Raptors Realtor wrote:
Varsho should have batted after hitting 2 homers, no question... but I can see why they didn't go to Francis. It's not like he's a lockdown, strike em out pitcher and he has zero experience in late game high leverage situations.
Yes, but taking your chances on that is still better than watching Mayza get destroyed by Judge in high leverage yet again. We effectively just decided to give the game away once Judge came up in favour of trying to win on Friday.
Idk I trust the experienced Mayza in that situation against Judge over Bowden.
You know who would have been great in that situation... Pearson... Why was he sent down before Francis?
Hottie McShotty wrote:I think Mayza comes in with the bases empty he gets the save and we win this game.
Raps in 4 wrote:Randle McMurphy wrote:Raps in 4 wrote:
It really wasn't a great trade if last year was the barometer. Moreno had a better season than Varsho, while also being 4 years younger. Varsho would need to significantly outproduce Moreno for the trade to be a win for us. If they continue to produce at a similar level (or if Moreno leapfrogs him), Arizona won the trade.
The Jays have 2 better catchers than Moreno (including one that is basically his age) and got the best defensive player in baseball out of the deal. Long-term was always gonna be the issue with it, but unless Moreno somehow learns to hit for any power (which doesn’t appear likely), I’m not too worried about this one long-term either.
Positional need is irrelevant. It's like drafting for positional need instead of picking the BPA.
Varsho and Moreno produced at almost an identical level last year (Moreno was a bit more valuable according to both fWAR and bWAR). In no world is trading a player who is 4 years younger for someone who produces at the same level a good trade. Especially when that 4-year younger player was at the peak of his value as a prospect. I refuse to believe a top-5 prospect couldn't net you more than an older version of his current self (they both play premium positions).
Mehar wrote:Madvillainy2004 wrote:Wow Judge kills Mayza again I'm totally shocked I've literally never seen this before.
I was there at the Rogers Centre when Judge crushed Home Run 61 against Mayza, so not a surprise. Only an idiot like Schneider can mismanage the bullpen like he did. He did not get burned yesterday, but of course his stupidity will prevent a sweep of a Division Rival.
Hottie McShotty wrote:https://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/video/schneider-ejected-after-arguing-strike-call-on-guerrero-jr/
wow Schneider is a POS. did anyone read his lips? Some pretty awful things were said to that ump. Ump was calling that pitch a strike for both teams all night long. That's on you and your players for not recognizing it and adjusting to the strike zone.
Schneider you need to STFU. Do a better job of managing your bullpen and your lineup next time. Loser.
Randle McMurphy wrote:Raps in 4 wrote:Randle McMurphy wrote:The Jays have 2 better catchers than Moreno (including one that is basically his age) and got the best defensive player in baseball out of the deal. Long-term was always gonna be the issue with it, but unless Moreno somehow learns to hit for any power (which doesn’t appear likely), I’m not too worried about this one long-term either.
Positional need is irrelevant. It's like drafting for positional need instead of picking the BPA.
Varsho and Moreno produced at almost an identical level last year (Moreno was a bit more valuable according to both fWAR and bWAR). In no world is trading a player who is 4 years younger for someone who produces at the same level a good trade. Especially when that 4-year younger player was at the peak of his value as a prospect. I refuse to believe a top-5 prospect couldn't net you more than an older version of his current self (they both play premium positions).
Positional need is obviously relevant in evaluating the trade. They very clearly couldn't go into another season with 3 major league caliber catchers in the organization and made the choice to trade one of them. In doing so, they acquired the best defensive player in the game with the ceiling of a 5-6 WAR player. In doing so, they also made the choice to bet on Kirk (who presumably could have garnered just as much as Moreno in trade given his age and production in 2022).
It remains to be seen how that bet on Kirk will go (his offense has fallen off though he's also become one of the best defensive catchers in baseball since the trade), but projection systems still very much like him.
Ultimately, there's a very real possibility that Varsho is going to end this season as the Jays' WAR leader (or co-leader with Bichette) with even average offense and that both Kirk/Jansen have better seasons than Moreno in 2024. People can cry about hypothetical trade value for prospects all they want (we'll never know if someone better than Varsho was available to them, so it's pointless), but I find it absurd to be harping over this deal two years later considering all of the other ACTUAL bad moves this FO has made and their rigid methods of game management that have cost this team for multiple seasons now.
Hottie McShotty wrote:https://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/video/blue-jays-bullpen-couldve-really-used-pearson-in-blown-game-vs-yanks/
This FO has no clue what they are doing. They rushed Swanson and Romano back with an off day coming up and knowing Chad Greene was injured and they send Pearson down who has been one of our best relievers this year.
Randle McMurphy wrote:Raps in 4 wrote:Randle McMurphy wrote:The Jays have 2 better catchers than Moreno (including one that is basically his age) and got the best defensive player in baseball out of the deal. Long-term was always gonna be the issue with it, but unless Moreno somehow learns to hit for any power (which doesn’t appear likely), I’m not too worried about this one long-term either.
Positional need is irrelevant. It's like drafting for positional need instead of picking the BPA.
Varsho and Moreno produced at almost an identical level last year (Moreno was a bit more valuable according to both fWAR and bWAR). In no world is trading a player who is 4 years younger for someone who produces at the same level a good trade. Especially when that 4-year younger player was at the peak of his value as a prospect. I refuse to believe a top-5 prospect couldn't net you more than an older version of his current self (they both play premium positions).
Positional need is obviously relevant in evaluating the trade. They very clearly couldn't go into another season with 3 major league caliber catchers in the organization and made the choice to trade one of them. In doing so, they acquired the best defensive player in the game with the ceiling of a 5-6 WAR player. In doing so, they also made the choice to bet on Kirk (who presumably could have garnered just as much as Moreno in trade given his age and production in 2022).
It remains to be seen how that bet on Kirk will go (his offense has fallen off though he's also become one of the best defensive catchers in baseball since the trade), but projection systems still very much like him.
Ultimately, there's a very real possibility that Varsho is going to end this season as the Jays' WAR leader (or co-leader with Bichette) with even average offense and that both Kirk/Jansen have better seasons than Moreno in 2024. People can cry about hypothetical trade value for prospects all they want (we'll never know if someone better than Varsho was available to them, so it's pointless), but I find it absurd to be harping over this deal two years later considering all of the other ACTUAL bad moves this FO has made and their rigid methods of game management that have cost this team for multiple seasons now.
