Breaking: Varsho in, Moreno, Gurriel out

Fairview4Life · Post #981 » by **Fairview4Life** » Tue Apr 2, 2024 9:27 pm

The problem with arguing that Gurriel is an average to mediocre defender is that I was there. I watched him in the field. I watched him waddle after balls. He wasn’t Teoscar level bad but he also wasn’t even Cavan Biggio level mediocre.

bluerap23 · Post #982 » by **bluerap23** » Tue Apr 2, 2024 10:10 pm

Madvillainy2004 wrote:
Fairview4Life wrote:
DelAbbot wrote:
He has that above average contact ability with pop, which is exactly what we currently need. His mediocre defense in LF is not that negatively impactful (due to strong arm). His baserunning brainfarts can be ignored over 162 game sample.

He does not have pop. He had an ISO of 108 and 5 home runs in his last year here. Varsho showed more "pop" last season. His defense in left was awful and not made up for by his supposedly strong arm. We all watched this happen! It was less than 2 years ago.

Are people reminiscing about that 2022 Jays team that blew a 8-1 lead in the WC game on their home field?

Varsho should br CF and its dumb that he's not but people are romanticizing that Teo/Gurriell outfield lol

I'm not romanticizing that team. Just pointing out that this FO has failed to improve upon it, despite hugely increasing payroll and dealing prospect capital. Does anyone expect this team to do anything more than lose in the wild card?

Madvillainy2004 · Post #983 » by **Madvillainy2004** » Tue Apr 2, 2024 10:28 pm

bluerap23 wrote:
Madvillainy2004 wrote:
Fairview4Life wrote:
He does not have pop. He had an ISO of 108 and 5 home runs in his last year here. Varsho showed more "pop" last season. His defense in left was awful and not made up for by his supposedly strong arm. We all watched this happen! It was less than 2 years ago.

Are people reminiscing about that 2022 Jays team that blew a 8-1 lead in the WC game on their home field?

Varsho should br CF and its dumb that he's not but people are romanticizing that Teo/Gurriell outfield lol

I'm not romanticizing that team. Just pointing out that this FO has failed to improve upon it, despite hugely increasing payroll and dealing prospect capital. Does anyone expect this team to do anything more than lose in the wild card?

I mean maybe? Baseball playoffs are super random. Not entirely unconvinced you could put last year's Red Sox in the playoffs and they could go on a run. It really only matters to make the playoffs. This team I'm unsure of if they actually will this year considering the offensive downgrades. But the Varsho/Lourdes/Teo/Moreno stuff really isn't moving the needle much in any direction anyways. If Vlad/Manoah didn't forget how to play the sport we'd probably be in a much better space too.

Hoopstarr · Post #984 » by **Hoopstarr** » Tue Apr 2, 2024 10:57 pm

Parataxis wrote:I, for one, love that we're going to keep on relitigating this trade every week for at least the next decade.

There's always so much new information to discuss!

There's not even anything to litigate and Gurriel is irrelevant. You simply don't trade a top 5 prospect for anything less than an established star coming back (BA actually ranked him #1 that summer). It doesn't matter what your scouts secretly think about the prospect. Can anyone think of a time when such a prospect was traded for less?

They got a prospect trade right the year prior when they traded #22 Austin Martin for a two-time all-star starter.

Madvillainy2004 · Post #985 » by **Madvillainy2004** » Tue Apr 2, 2024 11:23 pm

Hoopstarr wrote:
Parataxis wrote:I, for one, love that we're going to keep on relitigating this trade every week for at least the next decade.

There's always so much new information to discuss!

There's not even anything to litigate and Gurriel is irrelevant. You simply don't trade a top 5 prospect for anything less than an established star coming back (BA actually ranked him #1 that summer). It doesn't matter what your scouts secretly think about the prospect. Can anyone think of a time when such a prospect was traded for less?

They got a prospect trade right the year prior when they traded #22 Austin Martin for a two-time all-star starter.

Varsho was tied for 27th among all hitters in fWAR in 2022 coming off his first real season of playing time with tons of years of control left. What players were available for Moreno + Gurriel? Specifically what names did people want? Lol

Parataxis · Post #986 » by **Parataxis** » Tue Apr 2, 2024 11:46 pm

Hoopstarr wrote:
Parataxis wrote:I, for one, love that we're going to keep on relitigating this trade every week for at least the next decade.

There's always so much new information to discuss!

There's not even anything to litigate and Gurriel is irrelevant. You simply don't trade a top 5 prospect for anything less than an established star coming back (BA actually ranked him #1 that summer). It doesn't matter what your scouts secretly think about the prospect. Can anyone think of a time when such a prospect was traded for less?

They got a prospect trade right the year prior when they traded #22 Austin Martin for a two-time all-star starter.

Sure.

I just don't get the motivation to harp on about it over and over and over and over and over and over again. Like, okay, it was a bad trade. But all the whinging isn't going to make it undo itself.

Surely there's a point where we don't need to keep complaining about it multiple times every week, in multiple threads, right?

Michael Bradley · Post #987 » by **Michael Bradley** » Wed Apr 3, 2024 12:16 am

There was always logic to the trade; the Jays had a catching surplus and had essentially zero long term outfielders aside from Springer who was aging. Varsho was coming off a 4-5 fWAR season, and a great defensive CF who can hit at a league average or better clip is not easy to find. Even if the value component of the trade was questionable (i.e. a top 10 prospect in MLB should be traded for a legit star), the logic behind it was fine. Where the Jays failed was they shot themselves in the foot. They had Varsho play LF instead of CF in 2023, so it put more pressure on his bat and marginalized his one elite skill (defense), and then for some reason they voluntarily decided to do it again in 2024 when they saw how much it failed in 2023. Varsho with his pre-2023 offense + full time in CF is a 4+ WAR player again easily. The issue is he's not playing CF and for whatever reason his bat regressed big time in 2023. Of couse if his bat cannot bounce back then whether he plays CF or LF is sort of irrelevant as he'd be valuable but ultimately replaceable.

Ultimately I think people need to get over this deal. It's not the reason the Jays are in the spot they are in. If they still had Moreno and traded Jansen for Dylan Carlson instead (just throwing a name out there of a 2-ish WAR OF who plays good D), then they'd be in this exact same spot, more or less. The issues with this team run much deeper than this one trade.

Randle McMurphy · Post #988 » by **Randle McMurphy** » Wed Apr 3, 2024 12:22 am

Parataxis wrote:
Hoopstarr wrote:
Parataxis wrote:I, for one, love that we're going to keep on relitigating this trade every week for at least the next decade.

There's always so much new information to discuss!

There's not even anything to litigate and Gurriel is irrelevant. You simply don't trade a top 5 prospect for anything less than an established star coming back (BA actually ranked him #1 that summer). It doesn't matter what your scouts secretly think about the prospect. Can anyone think of a time when such a prospect was traded for less?

They got a prospect trade right the year prior when they traded #22 Austin Martin for a two-time all-star starter.

Sure.

I just don't get the motivation to harp on about it over and over and over and over and over and over again. Like, okay, it was a bad trade. But all the whinging isn't going to make it undo itself.

Surely there's a point where we don't need to keep complaining about it multiple times every week, in multiple threads, right?

Especially when the trade actually remains a good one from a value perspective.

s e n s i · Post #989 » by **s e n s i** » Wed Apr 3, 2024 3:05 am

people are still shamelessly hung up on trading light-hitting gabby moreno i see

Mehar · Post #990 » by **Mehar** » Wed Apr 3, 2024 4:20 pm

s e n s i wrote:people are still shamelessly hung up on trading light-hitting gabby moreno i see

Light Hitting Moreno only had one less homer (in 10 fewer games) in 2023 than the supposed Power Bat of Kirk. However, Moreno had a much higher OPS, SLG, RBI's, On Base, and Batting Average than the supposed "Power Bat" of Kirk in 2023. Not to mention him being Number 1 in Defensive WAR in all of MLB, and winning the Gold Glove as a 23 year old Rookie.

Fact of the matter is Kirk since the Second Half of 2022 up until now, has been a mediocre player at best. Not too mention how he is one of the slowest players in MLB, when he runs like a turtle and gets thrown out by a mile when hitting weak ground balls. Yet some delusional posters on here call him a (Top 5 to Top 10 Catcher) which is laughable.

Ignore his first half of 2022 when he was an All-Star, and Kirk is the definition of a slow, mediocre, Light Hitting Catcher. One of the reasons I hoped he would be traded for a great return after the 2022 Season when his value would never be higher. In addition to his "load management" and days off due to his fat and out of shape frame. Kirk is one of the most overrated players currently wearing a Blue Jays uniform.

s e n s i · Post #991 » by **s e n s i** » Sat Apr 6, 2024 2:58 am

Read on Twitter

vintage gurriel jr

Randle McMurphy · Post #992 » by **Randle McMurphy** » Sat Apr 6, 2024 5:12 am

s e n s i wrote:

Read on Twitter

vintage gurriel jr

Imagine people actually longing to watch another year of this guy

Mehar · Post #993 » by **Mehar** » Sat Apr 6, 2024 6:11 am

Funny how the Varsho lovers are blaming Gurriel for the loss, when the error was made by the Shortstop which the manager mentioned after the game (lol). Anything to distract from the fact that Varsho is again complete garbage at the plate to start the year. Gurriel was on base 4 times in this game (2 hits, 2 walks and RBI). That is the what Varsho has produced in the last 5 games combined.

bluerap23 · Post #994 » by **bluerap23** » Sat Apr 6, 2024 2:53 pm

Madvillainy2004 · Post #995 » by **Madvillainy2004** » Sat Apr 6, 2024 2:58 pm

Varsho is a better baseball player than Vlad Jr btw lol which makes it weird he draws so much more ire than him.

Mehar · Post #996 » by **Mehar** » Sat Apr 6, 2024 3:20 pm

bluerap23 wrote:

Only 8 games in, but Varsho has been complete garbage at the plate to start the year off. At least last year, he had a good first week. Apparently, he made some adjustments with his swing in the off-season. Hopefully, Varsho can see some positive results in the weeks ahead.

bluerap23 · Post #997 » by **bluerap23** » Sat Apr 6, 2024 6:21 pm

Mehar wrote:Only 8 games in, but Varsho has been complete garbage at the plate to start the year off. At least last year, he had a good first week. Apparently, he made some adjustments with his swing in the off-season. Hopefully, Varsho can see some positive results in the weeks ahead.

I am routing for him. Just doesn't look like a good hitter though. I hope I am proven wrong, but this deal is looking worse all the time.

Randle McMurphy · Post #998 » by **Randle McMurphy** » Sat Apr 6, 2024 7:39 pm

bluerap23 wrote:

Lourdes can have all the hot streaks he wants every season but he’s still gonna end up as the one dimensional mediocre player he always is in the end.

Mehar · Post #999 » by **Mehar** » Sun Apr 7, 2024 12:23 am

Randle McMurphy wrote:
bluerap23 wrote:

Lourdes can have all the hot streaks he wants every season but he’s still gonna end up as the one dimensional mediocre player he always is in the end.

One Dimensional mediocre player is a definition that fits Varsho perfectly actually, with his beyond atrocious production at the plate ever since he arrived in Toronto.

Randle McMurphy · Post #1000 » by **Randle McMurphy** » Sun Apr 7, 2024 12:35 am

Mehar wrote:
Randle McMurphy wrote:
bluerap23 wrote:

Lourdes can have all the hot streaks he wants every season but he’s still gonna end up as the one dimensional mediocre player he always is in the end.

One Dimensional mediocre player is a definition that fits Varsho perfectly actually, with his beyond atrocious production at the plate ever since he arrived in Toronto.

Lourdes can only dream of being as valuable as Varsho.