Breaking: Varsho in, Moreno, Gurriel out

[Mehar]

I have never said Varsho is just like Bradley Zimmer. That could never be the case, since Zimmer is one of the worst hitters I have ever seen, and a late inning bench player who is out of the league. I simply said they were both below average hitters, who in my opinion cannot be called "good players" because of their hitting stats, despite their great outfield defense. I have called Varsho an improved version of Bradley Zimmer, Zimmer 2.0, and Bradley Zimmer with a bit more pop. I simply said they were both below average. My point was I do not consider either Varsho and Bradley Zimmer good players, since they are both terrible at the plate, desire their solid outfield defense. Zimmer happens to be even more terrible hitter than Varsho, which is a hard feat to do since Zimmer is historically bad. However, they are still both below average players offensively in their careers despite their solid outfield defense.

Zimmer is a very good defensive player, and a defensive specialist off the bench. Varsho did hit 20 home runs, but he was below average in BA, OPS, SLG, ON Base, Strikeouts and Advanced Batting stats in 2023. So since they are both below average offensively, I grouped them together as guys who were defensive specialists, but were black holes at the plate that cannot be called good players. I never said Varsho is just like Zimmer, since he is a better hitter than Zimmer in his career as evidenced by their numbers. But Varsho is still a below average hitter versus a guy like Zimmer, who is a historically bad hitter.

[Michael Bradley]

Varsho hit .302/.372/.527 for his career in the minor leagues, and then had a 102 wRC+ in the big leagues from 2020-22. The only time he's ever resembled a below average hitter was in 2023 when I'm guessing someone in the org got in his ear about using all fields and hitting more singles, or whatever stupid philosophy the entire team decided to adopt that lead to 75% of the offense underachieving. If he put up a 102 wRC+ in 2024 while playing CF all season, then he's likely a 4-5 WAR player assuming his defense doesn't fall off. If you assume he's going to be an 80 wRC+ player moving forward, then he'd still be a 2-3 WAR CF just based on his D and base running, though obviously that would not be an ideal scenario. Regardless, it's way too early to write him off as a below average hitter.

[Mehar]

Varsho hit .302/.372/.527 for his career in the minor leagues, and then had a 102 wRC+ in the big leagues from 2020-22. The only time he's ever resembled a below average hitter was in 2023 when I'm guessing someone in the org got in his ear about using all fields and hitting more singles, or whatever stupid philosophy the entire team decided to adopt that lead to 75% of the offense underachieving. If he put up a 102 wRC+ in 2024 while playing CF all season, then he's likely a 4-5 WAR player assuming his defense doesn't fall off. If you assume he's going to be an 80 wRC+ player moving forward, then he'd still be a 2-3 WAR CF just based on his D and base running, though obviously that would not be an ideal scenario. Regardless, it's way too early to write him off as a below average hitter.

Being a great Minor League player does not always translate to MLB. Just simply looking at the numbers- Varsho has been a below average hitter in his MLB career in terms of BA, OBP, OPS, SLG, his Strikeout Rate, and his advanced batting statistics. Those mean more to me that wRC+. Obviously, Varsho is a solid defender. Just talking about his below average bat, which he was in 2023 and taking his defense out of the equation. Just need to pair him with a better hitting Left Fielder in 2024 to complement Varsho's solid defense in CF.

[s e n s i]

by my definition, matt chapman is a "solid" defender, if not slightly better.

daulton varsho is an absolutely elite defender, is probably the best defensive outfielder in the league, and will likely end up being the best defensive outfielder in franchise history after moving to CF especially. to say he is merely "solid" is really understating just how good he is out there.

[Michael Bradley]

Varsho hit .302/.372/.527 for his career in the minor leagues, and then had a 102 wRC+ in the big leagues from 2020-22. The only time he's ever resembled a below average hitter was in 2023 when I'm guessing someone in the org got in his ear about using all fields and hitting more singles, or whatever stupid philosophy the entire team decided to adopt that lead to 75% of the offense underachieving. If he put up a 102 wRC+ in 2024 while playing CF all season, then he's likely a 4-5 WAR player assuming his defense doesn't fall off. If you assume he's going to be an 80 wRC+ player moving forward, then he'd still be a 2-3 WAR CF just based on his D and base running, though obviously that would not be an ideal scenario. Regardless, it's way too early to write him off as a below average hitter.

Being a great Minor League player does not always translate to MLB. Just simply looking at the numbers- Varsho has been a below average hitter in his MLB career in terms of BA, OBP, OPS, SLG, his Strikeout Rate, and his advanced batting statistics. Those mean more to me that wRC+. Obviously, Varsho is a solid defender. Just talking about his below average bat, which he was in 2023 and taking his defense out of the equation. Just need to pair him with a better hitting Left Fielder in 2024 to complement Varsho's solid defense in CF.

Varsho by wRC+ and OPS+ was above average in both 2021 and 2022. Those metrics take a lot of different things into account. We have to wait and see if he can bounce back offensively in 2024-26, but what he did in 2023 is not representative of what he did prior. It's the aberration. If his 2024 looks like his 2023 season offensively, then it would become more worrisome. Definitely agree about getting a good hitting LF.

[Hottie McShotty]

It's amusing to read some of the posts on this trade, especially given how one-sided it was. It's clear that the Blue Jays lost out on this one, and yet some continue to defend Atkins. In doing so, they are only making themselves look foolish.

[Mehar]

by my definition, matt chapman is a "solid" defender, if not slightly better.

daulton varsho is an absolutely elite defender, is probably the best defensive outfielder in the league, and will likely end up being the best defensive outfielder in franchise history after moving to CF especially. to say he is merely "solid" is really understating just how good he is out there.

Let's not get carried away with the praise. Let's see how he does in CF next year over a full regular season, before proclaiming him the best in the league. Kiermaier was great defensively also in 2023. I wish Varsho was 3-4 inches taller like a 6 foot 1-2 Kiermaier, and his wingspan was much longer. Varsho's short height of 5 foot 9.5 inches and short arms, did prevent him from catching balls that went out of the park or landed for base hits, which a taller and player would have gotten to. Regardless, nobody is questioning his Outfield Defense. If Varsho is a below average hitter in 2024 like he was in 2023, whatever defense he provides is mitigated if he continues to be a Black Hole offensively. He is still counted on to come to the plate 4/5 times a game, and hopefully he is not one of the worst hitting starting outfielders like he was in 2023.

[Randle McMurphy]

Read on Twitter

[agkagk]

It's amusing to read some of the posts on this trade, especially given how one-sided it was. It's clear that the Blue Jays lost out on this one, and yet some continue to defend Atkins. In doing so, they are only making themselves look foolish.

My first thought after seeing what we gave up for varsho was “oh he must be another josh donaldson/ bautista/encarnacion unheralded prospect/late bloomer type.

Nope the jays willfully gave up the best catching prospect in the entire majors the past 15 years for a player they project to be league average.


Even if moreno never works out this echos the swanson/toussaint for shelby miller trade that got dave stewart fired.

[s e n s i]

It's amusing to read some of the posts on this trade, especially given how one-sided it was. It's clear that the Blue Jays lost out on this one, and yet some continue to defend Atkins. In doing so, they are only making themselves look foolish.

My first thought after seeing what we gave up for varsho was “oh he must be another josh donaldson/ bautista/encarnacion unheralded prospect/late bloomer type.

Nope the jays willfully gave up the best catching prospect in the entire majors the past 15 years for a player they project to be league average.


Even if moreno never works out this echos the swanson/toussaint for shelby miller trade that got dave stewart fired.

lol don't even know where to start here. out of all the posts in this thread, this one is certainly one of them.

- josh donaldson had already "bloomed" by the time he was acquired
- moreno was the best catching prospect in the entire majors in the past 15 years? lololololololololololololololololololololololololololol. you ever heard of buster posey? or adley rutschman? even francisco mejia had been ranked higher on prospect lists than moreno.
- yes you nailed it, the jays internally project varsho to be a league average player

[agkagk]

It's amusing to read some of the posts on this trade, especially given how one-sided it was. It's clear that the Blue Jays lost out on this one, and yet some continue to defend Atkins. In doing so, they are only making themselves look foolish.

My first thought after seeing what we gave up for varsho was “oh he must be another josh donaldson/ bautista/encarnacion unheralded prospect/late bloomer type.

Nope the jays willfully gave up the best catching prospect in the entire majors the past 15 years for a player they project to be league average.


Even if moreno never works out this echos the swanson/toussaint for shelby miller trade that got dave stewart fired.

lol don't even know where to start here. out of all the posts in this thread, this one is certainly one of them.

- josh donaldson had already "bloomed" by the time he was acquired
- moreno was the best catching prospect in the entire majors in the past 15 years? lololololololololololololololololololololololololololol. you ever heard of buster posey? or adley rutschman? even francisco mejia had been ranked higher on prospect lists than moreno.
- yes you nailed it, the jays internally project varsho to be a league average player

Oh smartly pants how long ago was buster drafted.

Yes rutschman is of better pedigree.

Yes high ranking scouts scross baseball have whispered and echoed the sentiment that moreno as a catching prospect literally has the best total package of tools SINCE posey - hence 15 years.


Idk man, maybe switch to decafe, it might help you “know where to start” next time.

Fun chat.

Bye!

Edit: also donaldsons break out status is irrelevant— at least try to connect the thoughts.

Double bye!

[s e n s i]

My first thought after seeing what we gave up for varsho was “oh he must be another josh donaldson/ bautista/encarnacion unheralded prospect/late bloomer type.

Nope the jays willfully gave up the best catching prospect in the entire majors the past 15 years for a player they project to be league average.


Even if moreno never works out this echos the swanson/toussaint for shelby miller trade that got dave stewart fired.

lol don't even know where to start here. out of all the posts in this thread, this one is certainly one of them.

- josh donaldson had already "bloomed" by the time he was acquired
- moreno was the best catching prospect in the entire majors in the past 15 years? lololololololololololololololololololololololololololol. you ever heard of buster posey? or adley rutschman? even francisco mejia had been ranked higher on prospect lists than moreno.
- yes you nailed it, the jays internally project varsho to be a league average player

Oh smartly pants how long ago was buster drafted.

Yes rutschman is of better pedigree.

Yes high ranking scouts scross baseball have whispered and echoed the sentiment that moreno as a catching prospect literally has the best total package of tools SINCE posey - hence 15 years.


Idk man, maybe switch to decafe, it might help you “know where to start” next time.

Fun chat.

Bye!

no, no, you summed it up flawlessly

the jays MO is "let's trade our top prospects for players we project to be league-average"

[agkagk]

lol don't even know where to start here. out of all the posts in this thread, this one is certainly one of them.

- josh donaldson had already "bloomed" by the time he was acquired
- moreno was the best catching prospect in the entire majors in the past 15 years? lololololololololololololololololololololololololololol. you ever heard of buster posey? or adley rutschman? even francisco mejia had been ranked higher on prospect lists than moreno.
- yes you nailed it, the jays internally project varsho to be a league average player

Oh smartly pants how long ago was buster drafted.

Yes rutschman is of better pedigree.

Yes high ranking scouts scross baseball have whispered and echoed the sentiment that moreno as a catching prospect literally has the best total package of tools SINCE posey - hence 15 years.


Idk man, maybe switch to decafe, it might help you “know where to start” next time.

Fun chat.

Bye!

no, no, you summed it up flawlessly

the jays MO is "let's trade our top prospects for players we project to be league-average"

Somebody hug this angry child lol

Here context to help your brain not explode:

Varsho projected as a league avg bat and elite defender in LEFT FIELD - the easiest to fill, least important position on the field.

Ya sounds like a league average talent to anyone with grown up comprehension skills.

This isn’t the love child of ichiro and robbie alomar out there defending.

Hes candy maldonado with foot speed!

You angry.

[Mehar]

My first thought after seeing what we gave up for varsho was “oh he must be another josh donaldson/ bautista/encarnacion unheralded prospect/late bloomer type.

Nope the jays willfully gave up the best catching prospect in the entire majors the past 15 years for a player they project to be league average.


Even if moreno never works out this echos the swanson/toussaint for shelby miller trade that got dave stewart fired.

lol don't even know where to start here. out of all the posts in this thread, this one is certainly one of them.

- josh donaldson had already "bloomed" by the time he was acquired
- moreno was the best catching prospect in the entire majors in the past 15 years? lololololololololololololololololololololololololololol. you ever heard of buster posey? or adley rutschman? even francisco mejia had been ranked higher on prospect lists than moreno.
- yes you nailed it, the jays internally project varsho to be a league average player

Oh smartly pants how long ago was buster drafted.

Yes rutschman is of better pedigree.

Yes high ranking scouts scross baseball have whispered and echoed the sentiment that moreno as a catching prospect literally has the best total package of tools SINCE posey - hence 15 years.


Idk man, maybe switch to decafe, it might help you “know where to start” next time.

Fun chat.

Bye!

Edit: also donaldsons break out status is irrelevant— at least try to connect the thoughts.

Double bye!

I do remember one scout saying in Spring Training this year that Moreno reminds him of a young Ivan Rodriguez, and had all the tools to have a career like him. That was high praise, since today's generation probably does not realize how unbelievable Rodriguez was defensively and offensively in the 90's with Texas, and early 2000's with Detroit. He had 8 straight seasons of hitting .300 or better in his prime, while being elite defensively. It was a privilege to watch that guy play baseball at the Skydome/Rogers Centre on a few times I had the chance. Rodriguez was a Hall of Fame Catcher, so that is big shoes to fill. Do not recall the Buster Posey comparison, but I am sure Arizona would be happy if Moreno could come close to either a Posey or Rodriguez, for the next 6 years of team control.

[s e n s i]

Oh smartly pants how long ago was buster drafted.

Yes rutschman is of better pedigree.

Yes high ranking scouts scross baseball have whispered and echoed the sentiment that moreno as a catching prospect literally has the best total package of tools SINCE posey - hence 15 years.


Idk man, maybe switch to decafe, it might help you “know where to start” next time.

Fun chat.

Bye!

no, no, you summed it up flawlessly

the jays MO is "let's trade our top prospects for players we project to be league-average"

Somebody hug this angry child lol

Here context to help your brain not explode:

Varsho projected as a league avg bat and elite defender in LEFT FIELD - the easiest to fill, least important position on the field.

Ya sounds like a league average talent to anyone with grown up comprehension skills.

You angry.

easy to misinterpret someone's mood over text. let me be clear. i am not angry in the slightest. i am actually overwhelmed by the sheer asinitity of your post and it's inducing some much needed laughter this morning.

on what planet is a league-average bat with elite defense in the outfield a "league-average talent"? that's one of the more valuable outfielders in the league.

they acquired varsho coming off a 4.8 fWAR season - again, why would they think he projects to be league average?

"high-ranking scouts have echoed and whispered" i honestly cannot stop laughing

[agkagk]

no, no, you summed it up flawlessly

the jays MO is "let's trade our top prospects for players we project to be league-average"

Somebody hug this angry child lol

Here context to help your brain not explode:

Varsho projected as a league avg bat and elite defender in LEFT FIELD - the easiest to fill, least important position on the field.

Ya sounds like a league average talent to anyone with grown up comprehension skills.

You angry.

easy to misinterpret someone's mood over text. let me be clear. i am not angry in the slightest. i am actually overwhelmed by the sheer asinitity of your post and it's inducing some much needed laughter this morning.

on what planet is a league-average bat with elite defense in the outfield a "league-average talent"? that's one of the more valuable outfielders in the league.

they acquired varsho coming off a 4.8 fWAR season - again, why would they think he projects to be league average?

"high-ranking scouts have echoed and whispered" i honestly cannot stop laughing

So when google using quotations help.

Try attaching morenos name next to phrases like buster posey, generational, pedigree, ceiling, rating etc

I just did it.

Im good. You should try it!

This took me 18 seconds to find — i didnt bother to read it, just the sub tag line is enough

Plenty of others who are much better informed then me, have echoed the same words as they came from inside mlb managerial offices. Theyre not fancy words from reporters, theyre paraphrasing what theyve been told.



https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/amphtml/news/world-series-2023-5-former-blue-jays-take-spotlight-in-rangers-diamondbacks-showdown-184239713.html

[s e n s i]

Somebody hug this angry child lol

Here context to help your brain not explode:

Varsho projected as a league avg bat and elite defender in LEFT FIELD - the easiest to fill, least important position on the field.

Ya sounds like a league average talent to anyone with grown up comprehension skills.

You angry.

easy to misinterpret someone's mood over text. let me be clear. i am not angry in the slightest. i am actually overwhelmed by the sheer asinitity of your post and it's inducing some much needed laughter this morning.

on what planet is a league-average bat with elite defense in the outfield a "league-average talent"? that's one of the more valuable outfielders in the league.

they acquired varsho coming off a 4.8 fWAR season - again, why would they think he projects to be league average?

"high-ranking scouts have echoed and whispered" i honestly cannot stop laughing

So when google using quotations help.

Try attaching morenos name next to phrases like buster posey, generational, pedigree, ceiling, rating etc

I just did it.

Im good. You should try it!

This took me 18 seconds to find — i didnt bother to read it, just the sub tag line is enough

Plenty of others who are much better informed then me, have echoed the same words as they came from inside mlb managerial offices. Theyre not fancy words from reporters, theyre paraphrasing what theyve been told.



https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/amphtml/news/world-series-2023-5-former-blue-jays-take-spotlight-in-rangers-diamondbacks-showdown-184239713.html

to be clear; which one of your arguments are you supporting by sharing this article?

[agkagk]

easy to misinterpret someone's mood over text. let me be clear. i am not angry in the slightest. i am actually overwhelmed by the sheer asinitity of your post and it's inducing some much needed laughter this morning.

on what planet is a league-average bat with elite defense in the outfield a "league-average talent"? that's one of the more valuable outfielders in the league.

they acquired varsho coming off a 4.8 fWAR season - again, why would they think he projects to be league average?

"high-ranking scouts have echoed and whispered" i honestly cannot stop laughing

So when google using quotations help.

Try attaching morenos name next to phrases like buster posey, generational, pedigree, ceiling, rating etc

I just did it.

Im good. You should try it!

This took me 18 seconds to find — i didnt bother to read it, just the sub tag line is enough

Plenty of others who are much better informed then me, have echoed the same words as they came from inside mlb managerial offices. Theyre not fancy words from reporters, theyre paraphrasing what theyve been told.



https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/amphtml/news/world-series-2023-5-former-blue-jays-take-spotlight-in-rangers-diamondbacks-showdown-184239713.html

to be clear; which one of your arguments are you supporting by sharing this article?

Omg this took me 42 seconds.

Here’s sportnet using statistical prospect analysis to form an argument that moreno is a generational prospect on par with joe major and buster posey.
.

Good luck learning how to google and learning how to connect thoughts and ideas from one sentence to the next.


https://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/article/history-elite-young-catchers-tells-us-jays-prospect-gabriel-moreno/

42 seconds.

Or you can just try to think and connect the dots.

Catchers are rarely the top prospect in baseball.

Catchers ranked the top prospect with elite hit tools are exceptionally rare.

A child could think it through by literally just saying those words out loud

[s e n s i]

So when google using quotations help.

Try attaching morenos name next to phrases like buster posey, generational, pedigree, ceiling, rating etc

I just did it.

Im good. You should try it!

This took me 18 seconds to find — i didnt bother to read it, just the sub tag line is enough

Plenty of others who are much better informed then me, have echoed the same words as they came from inside mlb managerial offices. Theyre not fancy words from reporters, theyre paraphrasing what theyve been told.



https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/amphtml/news/world-series-2023-5-former-blue-jays-take-spotlight-in-rangers-diamondbacks-showdown-184239713.html

to be clear; which one of your arguments are you supporting by sharing this article?

Omg this took me 42 seconds.

Here’s sportnet using statistical prospect analysis to form an argument that moreno is a generational prospect on par with joe major and buster posey.
.

Good luck learning how to google and learning how to connect thoughts and ideas from one sentence to the next.


https://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/article/history-elite-young-catchers-tells-us-jays-prospect-gabriel-moreno/

42 seconds.

Or you can just try to think and connect the dots.

Catchers are rarely the top prospect in baseball.

Catchers ranked the top prospect with elite hit tools are exceptionally rare.

A child could think it through by literally just saying those words out loud

which argument are you supporting by sharing these articles. from your original post. which of your statements are you trying to corroborate here?

also, when was moreno ever the top ranked prospect in baseball?

[Mehar]

to be clear; which one of your arguments are you supporting by sharing this article?

Omg this took me 42 seconds.

Here’s sportnet using statistical prospect analysis to form an argument that moreno is a generational prospect on par with joe major and buster posey.
.

Good luck learning how to google and learning how to connect thoughts and ideas from one sentence to the next.


https://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/article/history-elite-young-catchers-tells-us-jays-prospect-gabriel-moreno/

42 seconds.

Or you can just try to think and connect the dots.

Catchers are rarely the top prospect in baseball.

Catchers ranked the top prospect with elite hit tools are exceptionally rare.

A child could think it through by literally just saying those words out loud

which argument are you supporting by sharing these articles. from your original post. which of your statements are you trying to corroborate here?

also, when was moreno ever the top ranked prospect in baseball?

I think agkagk was referring to this from July 2022-
Baseball America names Bisons' Moreno game's top prospect

https://www.milb.com/news/moreno-named-baseball-s-top-prospect