Breaking: Varsho in, Moreno, Gurriel out

s e n s i · Post #881 » by **s e n s i** » Wed Nov 1, 2023 12:45 am

nobody worse in the league at playing caroms off the wall of their own ballpark than gurriel jr. makes retrieving a ball look so challenging so effortlessly. classic adventures in the outfield from him.

Randle McMurphy · Post #882 » by **Randle McMurphy** » Wed Nov 1, 2023 12:48 am

If you want to see what "carrying" a team in a WS actually looks like (as opposed to a light hitting catcher struggling to maintain a .300 OBP), see Corey Seager.

Mehar · Post #883 » by **Mehar** » Wed Nov 1, 2023 1:19 am

Wish the Jays had this Texas Offense. Run Prevention only goes so far, if your hitters like Varsho suck at the plate. No reason why the 2021 Jays could not have won it. Opportunity lost that year. Very unfortunate for Toronto fans. Will never have that type of offense ever again.

s e n s i · Post #884 » by **s e n s i** » Wed Nov 1, 2023 2:51 am

another massive (73 mph exit velo) bloop single for the next coming of mike piazza to bring his postseason wRC+ to a blistering 103.

s e n s i · Post #885 » by **s e n s i** » Wed Nov 1, 2023 3:30 am

you gotta hand it to 'em, moreno does have a knack at finding holes despite the weak contact. happy to see the kid have his world series signature moment with that 2 RBI seeing-eye single. that said, seems like the clock has struck midnight on the diamondbacks, as they look very much like the non-threatening team they were all season. helluva run, though.

Raps in 4 · Post #886 » by **Raps in 4** » Wed Nov 1, 2023 3:41 am

Mehar wrote:Wish the Jays had this Texas Offense. Run Prevention only goes so far, if your hitters like Varsho suck at the plate. No reason why the 2021 Jays could not have won it. Opportunity lost that year. Very unfortunate for Toronto fans. Will never have that type of offense ever again.

We've been consistently getting worse every year since 2021. We lost Semien and didn't replace him. Now we're about to lose Chapman, without a replacement, again. We traded Teo, without anyone who could pick up the offensive slack. Our farm system has been horrifically mismanaged. We have no players coming up to replace the outgoing players. Shatkins are literally mediocre at every facet of team building.

Post #887 » by **Cyrus** » Wed Nov 1, 2023 3:55 pm

This is interesting, for all the Kirk is best defensive catcher... (Kirk does lead in being the best defensive blocker/ a great framer, which is reflected below, but not overall the best).

Based on total Defensive Runs Saved (DRS) above average. Varsho recorded a DRS of +29 to lead all outfielders, Kirk was at +17, Jansen was -2, and Moreno was a +20 to lead all catchers. According to Statmuse, the D-backs also went 61-50 (.550) with Moreno catching

Also nothing new, that hasn't been discussed on here before. But I know is if Varsho had this "light" hitting playoffs that Moreno had, i know a member or two on here would be pounding their chest, as to what an offensive juggernaut ….. And really after the way he has hit this past season, in comparison that would be indeed an offensive juggernaut and be pounding the chest about it.

https://bluejaysnation.com/news/gabriel-moreno-was-surprised-by-d-backs-trade-i-thought-i-was-going-to-receive-a-call-wishing-me-happy-holidays

s e n s i · Post #888 » by **s e n s i** » Thu Nov 2, 2023 12:57 am

lovullo's confidence in moreno is so low right now that he asked him to sac bunt with 2 on and no one out, yet he still has him hitting 3rd. either that or moreno is dumber than we thought, but lovullo has proven to be as sharp as a bowling ball this series so maybe not. utterly confounding stuff in the world series.

Randle McMurphy · Post #889 » by **Randle McMurphy** » Thu Nov 2, 2023 2:53 am

Moreno goes 3 for 20 as his fraud DBacks fall expectedly in a gentleman's WS sweep against the Rangers. Talk about your luck seriously running out.

s e n s i · Post #890 » by **s e n s i** » Thu Nov 2, 2023 3:08 am

Randle McMurphy wrote:Moreno goes 3 for 20 as his fraud DBacks fall expectedly in a gentleman's WS sweep against the Rangers. Talk about your luck seriously running out.

2 of those 3 hits we're absolutely flukey too

Mehar · Post #891 » by **Mehar** » Thu Nov 2, 2023 3:35 am

Moreno definitely struggled in the World Series, but only a hater would discount the solid post-season contributions he made in the prior 3 playoff rounds as a First Year player, to help his team to reach the World Series. Arizona's manager credited Moreno as one of the reasons they even reached the World Series (on a 119 million payroll). I would have taken a trip to the World Series, over an embarrassing Wild Card exit by the Jays. Arizona had a great run, but they were overmatched by Texas in all areas. I had Texas winning the World Series coming in, but thought it would be 6 or 7 games, with the games being a lot closer than they were.

It seems like Arizona won its World Series by beating the Phillies, and winning the NL Pennant. They were just overmatched by a great hitting Texas team, that also pitched great when it counted. Also helps that Texas has the 4th highest payroll of 251 million. Hopefully, Rogers could even up the ante this year, and spend a bit more money in the off-season, to bring some quality hitters in the lineup for 2024. Jays fans deserve better than seeing the garbage offense we had to endure all year. Happy for Marcus Semien who I had the pleasure to meet and chat with in downtown Toronto in August, 2021. Great classy guy who I wished was still a Jay, but can understand that giving him 175 million over 7 years was not the best course of action at that time.

VanWest82 · Post #892 » by **VanWest82** » Thu Nov 2, 2023 4:12 am

This is all Moreno and Gurriel's fault

Post #893 » by **Cyrus** » Thu Nov 2, 2023 4:37 am

s e n s i wrote:
Randle McMurphy wrote:Moreno goes 3 for 20 as his fraud DBacks fall expectedly in a gentleman's WS sweep against the Rangers. Talk about your luck seriously running out.

2 of those 3 hits we're absolutely flukey too

That's 2 more flukey hits that Varsho has shown he's able to do

But maybe Varsho could have done his patent bunts for hits.

Fairview4Life · Post #894 » by **Fairview4Life** » Thu Nov 2, 2023 10:38 am

Lourdes made a nice running catch at the wall when the no hitter was still in play which made me laugh out loud.

Fairview4Life · Post #895 » by **Fairview4Life** » Thu Nov 2, 2023 12:41 pm

VanWest82 wrote:This is all Moreno and Gurriel's fault

Well, they weren't really helping. When we're being told they are carrying the team and "putting on a show" and whatnot, watching them actually play and fail was a bit confusing to me.

Madvillainy2004 · Post #896 » by **Madvillainy2004** » Thu Nov 2, 2023 4:06 pm

Damn the next Buster Posey went out sad in the World Series lol

Madvillainy2004 · Post #897 » by **Madvillainy2004** » Thu Nov 2, 2023 4:07 pm

s e n s i wrote:lovullo's confidence in moreno is so low right now that he asked him to sac bunt with 2 on and no one out, yet he still has him hitting 3rd. either that or moreno is dumber than we thought, but lovullo has proven to be as sharp as a bowling ball this series so maybe not. utterly confounding stuff in the world series.

Having a player in your 3 hole who you ask to bunt twice is so funny man lmao just hat him 8th if you're gonna do that.

s e n s i · Post #898 » by **s e n s i** » Thu Nov 2, 2023 5:32 pm

so after all of that, gabriel moreno ends up with a 101 wRC+, .748 OPS, .238 AVG, and a 28.6% K rate through 63 AB's. the definition of an average postseason offensively from as large a sample size as you can derive from one postseason appearance. it's almost as if it's foolish to come to any sweeping conclusion of a trade based on a narrow 2 week window for one player involved.

the saddest part about this is how obsessed some people are at owning anyone who is remotely accepting of the trade, slandering good players like varsho and kirk in the process to justify their stance. now, these same people have to either awkwardly pretend to cheer for varsho and kirk or will be openly reveling at every strikeout, GIDP, error etc. at the expense of the success of the team they support. it's too late to go back now for these folks -- all for a player who had a gloriously average offensive regular season and postseason, all things considered. heartbreaking.

Mehar · Post #899 » by **Mehar** » Thu Nov 2, 2023 9:57 pm

s e n s i wrote:so after all of that, gabriel moreno ends up with a 101 wRC+, .748 OPS, .238 AVG, and a 28.6% K rate through 63 AB's. the definition of an average postseason offensively from as large a sample size as you can derive from one postseason appearance. it's almost as if it's foolish to come to any sweeping conclusion of a trade based on a narrow 2 week window for one player involved.

the saddest part about this is how obsessed some people are at owning anyone who is remotely accepting of the trade, slandering good players like varsho and kirk in the process to justify their stance. now, these same people have to either awkwardly pretend to cheer for varsho and kirk or will be openly reveling at every strikeout, GIDP, error etc. at the expense of the success of the team they support. it's too late to go back now for these folks -- all for a player who had a gloriously average offensive regular season and postseason, all things considered. heartbreaking.

The difference between me and you is that I do not think you can call Varsho a good player. A very good defensive player, but a person with his hitting statistics cannot be labelled a good player. Just like how I feel Bradley Zimmer is not a good player, even though he is a solid defensive player. A good player cannot be a very below average hitter and a Black Hole in the lineup, according to my perspective (others like you disagree which is fine). Moreno struggled in the World Series, but was fantastic through 12 games in 3 Post-Season Rounds, and as a Rookie played a big part in taking his team to the World Series upsetting an 100 win team like LA, and a very good Phillies team. This was Varsho's 4th MLB Season, and his hitting numbers regressed from 2022, and further regressed from 2021. A good player does not have a batting average of .220, with an atrocious OPS of .674 like Varsho.

This was over an entire season, and not based on just two weeks of post-season play. The sweeping conclusion was made after watching a 162 Game Regular Season. If you think Kirk is a good player, Moreno in the Regular season had better hitting numbers than him in every offensive metric (except one less home run), despite missing 3 weeks in August. Moreno had a WAR of 4.3, and Kirk had a 1.9. Defensively as a a rookie, Moreno lead MLB in Defensive War. He was better at throwing runners out than Kirk with his cannon arm. So, Moreno definitely had a solid Rookie Year as a 23 year old Catcher. Nothing heartbreaking about pointing out the fact that the trade after year 1 was underwhelming at best for Toronto. Like I stated previously many times, I had no problem trading Moreno for a guy like Bryan Reynolds, that was an All-Star Left Fielder and good Left Handed Hitter. I just felt when you are trading a top 3 MLB prospect with 7 years of team control and his great arm behind the plate- I expected more than a below average bat like Varsho to come back in a trade.

Nobody in this forum is rooting for Varsho to fail. Ross Atkins said in Spring Training that Varsho was supposed to replace the production of Teoscar Hernandez. Instead Varsho was one of the worst hitting outfielders in all of MLB. It is not slander but a fact, if you look at Varsho's BA, OPS, SLG, ON Base, Strikeouts and Advanced Batting Statistics. He was below average in all those categories. I personally hope I am wrong about the Varsho trade. I have been wrong before, when I thought Texas signing Semien and Corey Seager to those ridiculous long-term contracts would come back to hurt them. Instead, they won the World Series two years later. So, I hope Varsho does have a better 2024 for the sake of this organization, especially offensively by not being the Black Hole he was in 2023.

Madvillainy2004 · Post #900 » by **Madvillainy2004** » Sat Nov 4, 2023 3:46 am

Mehar wrote:
s e n s i wrote:so after all of that, gabriel moreno ends up with a 101 wRC+, .748 OPS, .238 AVG, and a 28.6% K rate through 63 AB's. the definition of an average postseason offensively from as large a sample size as you can derive from one postseason appearance. it's almost as if it's foolish to come to any sweeping conclusion of a trade based on a narrow 2 week window for one player involved.

the saddest part about this is how obsessed some people are at owning anyone who is remotely accepting of the trade, slandering good players like varsho and kirk in the process to justify their stance. now, these same people have to either awkwardly pretend to cheer for varsho and kirk or will be openly reveling at every strikeout, GIDP, error etc. at the expense of the success of the team they support. it's too late to go back now for these folks -- all for a player who had a gloriously average offensive regular season and postseason, all things considered. heartbreaking.

The difference between me and you is that I do not think you can call Varsho a good player. A very good defensive player, but a person with his hitting statistics cannot be labelled a good player. Just like how I feel Bradley Zimmer is not a good player, even though he is a solid defensive player. A good player cannot be a very below average hitter and a Black Hole in the lineup, according to my perspective (others like you disagree which is fine). Moreno struggled in the World Series, but was fantastic through 12 games in 3 Post-Season Rounds, and as a Rookie played a big part in taking his team to the World Series upsetting an 100 win team like LA, and a very good Phillies team. This was Varsho's 4th MLB Season, and his hitting numbers regressed from 2022, and further regressed from 2021. A good player does not have a batting average of .220, with an atrocious OPS of .674 like Varsho.

This was over an entire season, and not based on just two weeks of post-season play. The sweeping conclusion was made after watching a 162 Game Regular Season. If you think Kirk is a good player, Moreno in the Regular season had better hitting numbers than him in every offensive metric (except one less home run), despite missing 3 weeks in August. Moreno had a WAR of 4.3, and Kirk had a 1.9. Defensively as a a rookie, Moreno lead MLB in Defensive War. He was better at throwing runners out than Kirk with his cannon arm. So, Moreno definitely had a solid Rookie Year as a 23 year old Catcher. Nothing heartbreaking about pointing out the fact that the trade after year 1 was underwhelming at best for Toronto. Like I stated previously many times, I had no problem trading Moreno for a guy like Bryan Reynolds, that was an All-Star Left Fielder and good Left Handed Hitter. I just felt when you are trading a top 3 MLB prospect with 7 years of team control and his great arm behind the plate- I expected more than a below average bat like Varsho to come back in a trade.

Nobody in this forum is rooting for Varsho to fail. Ross Atkins said in Spring Training that Varsho was supposed to replace the production of Teoscar Hernandez. Instead Varsho was one of the worst hitting outfielders in all of MLB. It is not slander but a fact, if you look at Varsho's BA, OPS, SLG, ON Base, Strikeouts and Advanced Batting Statistics. He was below average in all those categories. I personally hope I am wrong about the Varsho trade. I have been wrong before, when I thought Texas signing Semien and Corey Seager to those ridiculous long-term contracts would come back to hurt them. Instead, they won the World Series two years later. So, I hope Varsho does have a better 2024 for the sake of this organization, especially offensively by not being the Black Hole he was in 2023.

Comparing Varsho to Bradley Zimmer is not a serious argument lmao Varsho had more homeruns in 2022 than Zimmers whole career. Also Varsho is far from "solid" on defense. He might be the most valuable defender in the sport next year based on his numbers out in center field. Varsho had a poor offensive season but I still think there's something in his bat and to be a 4-4.5+ fWAR player isn't out of the question going forward.

Also citing baseball reference WAR for Kirk but saying Varsho is Bradley Zimmer is super funny cause Varsho had 3.9 WAR barely off Moreno lol. Bryan Reynolds (I player I liked in a Moreno deal) for reference had 2.3 fWAR to Varshos 2.1. So not a ton lost there based only on this year imo.

I just don't think in general this trade is worth this much vitriol. The Dbacks could easily not even make the postseason next year if they play more to their expected record.