GT: Blue Jays vs Twins - the Game2ining Oct 4th

[Raps in 4]

Well, that happened. Time to wait around for the hot stove.

I figure Shapiro is probably safe with what he's been doing with the renos, but Atkins has to be sent packing.

Amazing that all four WC series are done after just two games.

I don't understand why someone else can't take over the renovations. It's not rocket science. It's **** facilities management.

But if we feel we absolutely have to keep him around, then limit his baseball duties.

[C Court]

There was a sense that that this forum was overly negative towards a Blue Jays team which made the playoffs. Seems like we weren’t the only ones.

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[JN]

You have to look at what AA did from when he become GM to when he left. He had few assets and accumulated the most dominant lineup in Jays 20 years and strong enough bullpen to go all the way.

Just watch the trash heap Shapkins will leave for the next Jays GM when they get fired, then you will appreciate what AA left Shapkins with

What an odd point. We only needed like 2 years to see how the 2016 roster moved forward. It wasn't good - at all. Other than Vlad, there was literally nothing to appreciate. Well there as Donaldson too -- and that was flopped by Shatkins who waited too long to move on from him.

This team is much better positioned for new mgmt today in 2023 than it was for new mgmt in 2016. Now all we need though is new mgmt.

What! The post 2016 was still very strong and with veteran assets like MVP Josh Donaldson at peak performance with 2 years of control. If you want to argue the 2016 roster was a full of declining assets, then I argue it's because AA constructed the roster (trading away future prospects for current veterans) for the 2013-2017 window - and he had plenty to show for it with 2015 & 2016. Much of the assets AA accumulated were spent for the competitive run in 2015-2016, and it was totally worth it.

My main point was that Shatkins did not inherit the good situation that was asserted by one of the members here.

I never said that 2015 and 2016 wasn't worth it - those were great teams especially the 2015 one. Or that it was a poor decision to make the pushes for those years. AA made the right calls and those teams in terms of assessing what we had. But ultimately the lack of positional prospect development over the years (and not really the trading of some prospects) was the key factor in the short window. Not that I disagreed with his prospect deals in 2015 at all - short window is better than no window. His acquisitions of the 3 key players for those teams Bautista, Encarnacion, and Donaldson were all brilliant in terms of costs. But by the end of 2016 the window on that team had largely closed - old and budget constrained.

AA could have certainly done the rebuild as well. He's proven to be a great executive. But again my point is that Shatkins did not inherit the good situation that was asserted.

Personally I thought Shatkins did a better job than some gave them credit for up to 2021. That was a really good team, what seemed like a good farm system at the time. But looking how the team and organization has moved forward from 2021 to 2023 in terms of its roster management, its player development / coaching on the big team, and its clear they have been heading in the wrong direction in many aspects beyond just some questionable moves like the Varsho one.

[And1Skip]

Honestly it's sad all the talk is gonna be about the stupid berrios decision but let's get real, they only gsve up 3 runs in game 1 and 2 runs today. It's the offense that was atrocious. I don't even know how to address it this offseason. It seems mentally they just don't have IT. Whenever big risp moments come up everyone chokes. They had so many opportunities today and every one squandered. And that's been the story of the season.

And mentally the hitters were extremely shook after that Berrios/Kikuchi decision and being down 2-0 as a result of that. For an offence that has struggled all season - would have been much different mentally at the plate and on the bases if the score was 0-0 in the late innings vs being down 2-0. So yeah, the overall storyline of the Jays failures this season will be the offence, but man, that one idiotic decision (which I can't believe tops the decision last year in elimination game to take Gausman out for Mayza who almost had reverse splits vs a hitter who hits lefties better than righties).

[JN]

Honestly it's sad all the talk is gonna be about the stupid berrios decision but let's get real, they only gsve up 3 runs in game 1 and 2 runs today. It's the offense that was atrocious. I don't even know how to address it this offseason. It seems mentally they just don't have IT. Whenever big risp moments come up everyone chokes. They had so many opportunities today and every one squandered. And that's been the story of the season.

And mentally the hitters were extremely shook after that Berrios/Kikuchi decision and being down 2-0 as a result of that. For an offence that has struggled all season - would have been much different mentally at the plate and on the bases if the score was 0-0 in the late innings vs being down 2-0. So yeah, the overall storyline of the Jays failures this season will be the offence, but man, that one idiotic decision (which I can't believe tops the decision last year in elimination game to take Gausman out for Mayza who almost had reverse splits vs a hitter who hits lefties better than righties).

I thought the same thing. Of course this team is quite capable of scoring zero when it is in good spirits so it may not have mattered.

But if there is such a thing as momentum in baseball, that had to be a gut punch for a lot of the team.

[ItsDanger]

The modeling didn't include the WTF attitude of the players after the pitching change. That will be in next year's update. LOL

[Boogie!]

Honestly it's sad all the talk is gonna be about the stupid berrios decision but let's get real, they only gsve up 3 runs in game 1 and 2 runs today. It's the offense that was atrocious. I don't even know how to address it this offseason. It seems mentally they just don't have IT. Whenever big risp moments come up everyone chokes. They had so many opportunities today and every one squandered. And that's been the story of the season.

And mentally the hitters were extremely shook after that Berrios/Kikuchi decision and being down 2-0 as a result of that. For an offence that has struggled all season - would have been much different mentally at the plate and on the bases if the score was 0-0 in the late innings vs being down 2-0. So yeah, the overall storyline of the Jays failures this season will be the offence, but man, that one idiotic decision (which I can't believe tops the decision last year in elimination game to take Gausman out for Mayza who almost had reverse splits vs a hitter who hits lefties better than righties).

I thought the same thing. Of course this team is quite capable of scoring zero when it is in good spirits so it may not have mattered.

But if there is such a thing as momentum in baseball, that had to be a gut punch for a lot of the team.

They lost 2-0 in the 9th like last week to the yankees. Has nothing to do with momentum, they just suck at cashing in runs. They literally had bases loaded 1 out a few innings after the berrios swap, and Chapman was 1 foot away from clearing the bases. Momentum and all that is bull, it's just bad luck and lack of overall clutch offensively.

[linery88]

Honestly it's sad all the talk is gonna be about the stupid berrios decision but let's get real, they only gsve up 3 runs in game 1 and 2 runs today. It's the offense that was atrocious. I don't even know how to address it this offseason. It seems mentally they just don't have IT. Whenever big risp moments come up everyone chokes. They had so many opportunities today and every one squandered. And that's been the story of the season.

And mentally the hitters were extremely shook after that Berrios/Kikuchi decision and being down 2-0 as a result of that. For an offence that has struggled all season - would have been much different mentally at the plate and on the bases if the score was 0-0 in the late innings vs being down 2-0. So yeah, the overall storyline of the Jays failures this season will be the offence, but man, that one idiotic decision (which I can't believe tops the decision last year in elimination game to take Gausman out for Mayza who almost had reverse splits vs a hitter who hits lefties better than righties).

I thought the same thing. Of course this team is quite capable of scoring zero when it is in good spirits so it may not have mattered.

But if there is such a thing as momentum in baseball, that had to be a gut punch for a lot of the team.

I think we win if Berrios stays in LOL.
Gray was not manhandling us like Buck was talking him up,and the more we saw the more we had a better chance of actual damage.
We outhit them,and we had guys on in multiple innings.It looked like we were going to score eventually LOL.Plus the umps were giving Berrios favorable K calls,and on hitting,we were getting away with bad ump K calls LOL.
The hitters must have all said "But Berrios...he was kicking ass...why pull him now?"
These hitters need all the help they can get,and that was not helpful mentally,or physically.

[ItsDanger]

The top 4 teams in OPS with runners in scoring position this season had the 4 bye positions in the playoffs. Not a coincidence.

[Parataxis]

Well, that happened. Time to wait around for the hot stove.

I figure Shapiro is probably safe with what he's been doing with the renos, but Atkins has to be sent packing.

Amazing that all four WC series are done after just two games.

I don't understand why someone else can't take over the renovations. It's not rocket science. It's **** facilities management.

But if we feel we absolutely have to keep him around, then limit his baseball duties.

Oh, I don't think we SHOULD keep him. But I wouldn't be surprised if Rogers chooses to keep him. He's making them money.

[linery88]

There was a sense that that this forum was overly negative towards a Blue Jays team which made the playoffs. Seems like we weren’t the only ones.

Read on Twitter

Even after winning games guys like Roger Lajoie,and others were not that impressed.There were at least 20 wins like that this season,and its impossible to ignore your own eyes/ears/gut after a while.

[duppyy]

Even when we have the best offence in the league, we suck in the playoffs. Just a Toronto curse. We tried with pitching and defence that didn’t work this season. I guess we need a perfect team.

[Raps in 4]

Even when we have the best offence in the league, we suck in the playoffs. Just a Toronto curse. We tried with pitching and defence that didn’t work this season. I guess we need a perfect team.

Instead of loading up on one at the expense of the other, maybe we should try to be good at everything. We don't need to be elite at everything, just good.

[dafan590]

Analytics mean nothing if your manager is idiotic!!!!!

[linery88]

Harold Reynolds MLB said it best about a week ago."When your lineup/hitters are struggling to score runs,and not consistent,you dont constantly shift them all around etc,you keep the lineup consistent,because its the one place where you can maintain some kind of consistency,and see what happens"
This was my beef all year,but they just kept making panic decisions,and every game was "Groundhog Day" with a new lineup.The message to the players was that they suck,and they cant hit....just like today with Berrios...Sorry Jose.
They never gave the hitters a chance to stay in one slot.
The most miserable 89 win season ever.

[polo007]

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[Raps in 4]

Harold Reynolds MLB said it best about a week ago."When your lineup/hitters are struggling to score runs,and not consistent,you dont constantly shift them all around etc,you keep the lineup consistent,because its the one place where you can maintain some kind of consistency,and see what happens"
This was my beef all year,but they just kept making panic decisions,and every game was "Groundhog Day" with a new lineup.The message to the players was that they suck,and they cant hit....just like today with Berrios...Sorry Jose.
They never gave the hitters a chance to stay in one slot.
The most miserable 89 win season ever.

I'm fine with reshuffling the lineup when something isn't working, but a lot of the time, our lineups don't make any sense.

[Raps in 4]

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I really hope that SN getting the green light to **** all over the team the last few weeks is a sign that Rogers has soured on the FO and will make a change in the off-season.

[JN]

Someone has mentioned it here before, but somebody was successful in getting Rogers to open up the purse strings more than before. if it's Shapiro its worth something
In 2023, our team salary is 130% of league average... in 2016 it was about league average.

But after today that's one of the few positives I can give.

[Randle McMurphy]

There was a sense that that this forum was overly negative towards a Blue Jays team which made the playoffs. Seems like we weren’t the only ones.

Read on Twitter

I certainly found it interesting when I was labeled as too negative about this team just last week. Just about anybody who actually watched the games regularly hated this team.