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Post#121 » by corona » Tue Jan 8, 2008 11:09 pm

i don't know....according to that when you juxtapose SG and PG for AI he gets just about the same point production, just by being the assist man instead....

2.4 more assists....4.8 points and more passing...only a 2 point diff. between scoring by pos.

thats his individual stats though, which aren't that relevant.

noone's talking about how the entire team does offensively when iverson's at the point vs. at the sg position. 82games doesn't record that.

the closest thing you could do is look at anthony carter's oncourt/offcourt stats, because he's the guy that plays point alongside iverson for 90% of his minutes. and the offensive production certainly takes a dip with AC on the court. but that's sketchy, because carter also plays some minutes without iverson...and you can see through iversons oncourt/offcourt numbers that the offense dies when he goes out.

the other thing you can do is look at 5 man units with iverson:
http://www.82games.com/0708/07DEN3B.HTM
it doesn't give you point per 100 possession offensive stuff....but it does give you +/-

what's interesting is that the iverson/khouba/melo/martin/camby combination has a way higher +/- (positive, at least), than carter/iverson/melo/martin/camby. and they've played essentially the same minutes.

unfortunately our offense sucks with khouba on the court...so i'm not sure that's an effective longterm solution. (even though our defense is deadly with khouba in the game)
also those stats may be misleading, because our schedule was super easy to start the year....and that's when that lineup was successful.

edit: i didn't see this before....
but in that 5 man unit page, the team's eFG% goes up 2% with iverson/diawara as opposed to carter/iverson.
and the eFGA (efg against) goes down over 8%
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Post#122 » by AI4life07 » Tue Jan 8, 2008 11:16 pm

Last nights lost had nothing to do with offense for crying out loud. We simply played one of our worst defensive games of the year! If we give teams wide open 3 pointers like we did last night consistently i expect us to lose everytime.
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Post#123 » by pickaxe » Tue Jan 8, 2008 11:22 pm

corona wrote: and denver did defend a lot better after the 1st quarter. without phoenix starting the game like 9/10, and then being 20/27 early in the 2nd quarter...its a different game. and it was basically over by that point. so things did get fixed as the game went along, and rotations were better for the most part....but without completely shutting down phoenix in all aspects or going crazy offensively, we weren't gonna win that game after the first quarter. phoenix is not indiana....without a total miracle, they can't be held to 32 second half points.


Right - especially at the end of the 3rd quarter things were clicking, but then that undefendable 3 at the buzzer hits the Nuggets again.

There's got to be something that could have been done better somewhere in there though - because the Nuggets, although known to be porous at times, should not have given up 130 points - even with bad luck.

I was hoping through the whole game that they would at least pull it together to come to within 10 points by end of game.

But, onto the next game...
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Post#124 » by king_of_kingz » Tue Jan 8, 2008 11:36 pm

For the idiot who wrote this below, how many times did Steve Nash play in the Eastern Conference? 0. How many times Allen Iverson played for the Eastern Conference? Every Year since last. Imagine if those Dallas or Phoenix teams played in the eastern conference, different story. At least a better chance than AI will ever get.

In addition, the only reason why AI is so hard to guard is because he will fall, wiggle, and do anything in his power to put his defender in foul trouble. So what do you do when you try to play bowen-like defense on a flobber, you let him score. AI truly sucks. Take away the referees, there wouldn't be AI.

Damn thugs in the NBA run the court. Look at how they interact with those fools in stripes.

sportsmikegm23 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Can you please tell me what NBA title team Steve Nash has been on? ok none? ok...can you tell me which NBA Finals team Steve Nash has been on?? ok none.... AI has gone further than Steve Nash has.

JR... I understand your point, while this team does lack a "traditional" style...it doesn't mean they can't compete for a title. yes, I agree the parts of the team don't fit, but honestly, you sound like you hate everything about the Nuggets, and if you have so much hate, why even watch or worry about it... We didn't have much success with Andre Miller as our point guard either and he was definitely a pass 1st pg. the Nuggets haven't had a shooting guard since...hell I don't even know anymore... Bryant Stith and he was all defense???.

Unless you have a big "in" with Kroenke...I think all your hate is going to fall on deaf ears.
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Post#125 » by pickaxe » Tue Jan 8, 2008 11:42 pm

not sure if the gameflow charts might help in getting the iverson pg/sg team production stats.....just have to remember back to which games he played the point

pretty much whenever JR wasn't in a game in November

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Post#126 » by corona » Tue Jan 8, 2008 11:55 pm

not sure if the gameflow charts might help in getting the iverson pg/sg team production stats.....just have to remember back to which games he played the point

pretty much whenever JR wasn't in a game in November

popcornmachine.net

i suppose.
the thing i've always argued regarding iverson is that he handles the ball so much regardless of if he's a point guard or shooting guard, there's really little differentiating between the two...and someone like anthony carter doesn't have the ball in his hands enough to be a true point guard or make a substantial difference in any area besides shooting...which he's not that good at (he has racked up some assists though).
all a point guard's out there to do with iverson is get outlet passes (if camby's unselfish enough to give the ball up), and throw them ahead to melo/ai/martin...and throw post entry passes, or simple swing passes. because iverson should always be ahead on a break, not the outlet passer (he's just better at that), and because iverson is an awful post entry passer.

so basically what i'm saying is that its difficult to get a grasp on the offenses production as a whole when iverson plays a specific position...because even if he runs shooting guard alongside carter or smith, he's still handling the ball more than any other player on the team, and his sidekick doesn't handle the ball enough to make a substantial difference in the offensive production as a true point guard.

:dontknow:
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Post#127 » by The Rebel » Tue Jan 8, 2008 11:59 pm

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

For me being the only guy on here that starts the AI Melo Argument like mny like to claim, it sure did not take you guys long to start another at the end of another losing performance.

Anybody who did not expect this team to come out and struggle on defense has not been paying attention, they have played way to hard on that end, and were bound to run out of gas, but at the end of the day we went 3-1 which is much better then I expected. People can complain that the starters played too many minutes in the last three games, and they would be right, however they throw some of them into the other games and we may lose, as you cannot expect them to now have their confidence and timing after sitting on the bench for to weeks.

Ball movement still sucks, and what I would not give to have a few 3 point shooters on the bench that Karl could throw into this type of game when we are struggling. I still find the 2nd saddest legacy of Karl's career is that the only young player he has ever truly developed is Melo, and even with Melo he does not deserve much of the credit.
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Post#128 » by noone » Wed Jan 9, 2008 12:31 am

Your leaving Billups off the list because of what again?


Detroit was the first team and may also be the last team at least for a long time to win a championship with that kind of roster. You won't be able to find any other nba champion that didn't have a single offensively dominant player at any position. The Pistons had 5 guys (aside from Ben who was a game changer defensively on that squad) on that team who could put up 20+ points on any night and it wouldn't be considered an above average performance. And defensively that squad fit together perfectly for their system. That is why I left out Billups. And don't forget, he too was a journeyman until he fell into the perfect situation in Detroit. 4 different teams in 5 years.

The Bulls teams pg is irrlelevant because Pippen played point forward and handled it the majority of the time. ...Why don't we leave Williams off the list, because that heat team was unique also....the offense ran mainly through Wade and Shaq.....lol


And Melo and Iverson handle the ball the majority of the time, so wouldn't that make the Nuggets' pg irrelevant? Shouldn't the Nuggets also only worry about having a solid player at the position?

Side note: All the championship teams ran most of their offense through their 2 best players just like the Nuggets with Iverson and Melo. Unless a team had 3 or 4 all stars. And if you look into most of those teams, you'll also see that the top 2 players took the majority of the shots, with the third option offensively taking around 11-12 shots.

and Tony Parker isn't borderline, I hate him, but he's a good point.


I agree Parker is very good. The best on the list. I was only listing the point guards from the championship teams. And my point still stands, a lot of just solid players.

even Fischer did a good job of playing point...maybe not all-star caliber, but solid. AC is a journeymen at best, and would be a solid backup point, but not starter. Bottom line is most of the championship teams had somebody solid distributing the ball.


I agree, Carter would be a solid backup point and yes he has been a journeyman. But all that doesn't negate the fact that he has been a solid starting PG for this Nuggets' team. What he is doing right now is the only relevant thing about his career. And IMO, the Nuggets could win a championship with Carter as their starting PG.
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Post#129 » by noone » Wed Jan 9, 2008 12:38 am

edit: i didn't see this before....
but in that 5 man unit page, the team's eFG% goes up 2% with iverson/diawara as opposed to carter/iverson.
and the eFGA (efg against) goes down over 8%


I'm not too surprised about the efg against though I think over the course of a season, the number wouldn't be as high as 8%. And the Nuggets' eFG% going up 2% with Diawara could be partially due to Carter being the starting PG when Melo went through his slump. Carter is definitely the better jump shooter, and everything else being the same, I'd definitely expect the team to have a better eFG% with Carter as opposed to Diawara.
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Post#130 » by noone » Wed Jan 9, 2008 12:46 am

Ball movement still sucks, and what I would not give to have a few 3 point shooters on the bench that Karl could throw into this type of game when we are struggling. I still find the 2nd saddest legacy of Karl's career is that the only young player he has ever truly developed is Melo, and even with Melo he does not deserve much of the credit.


The irony of it is that Karl does have a few 3 point shooters on the bench, he just refuses to use them. In this type of game he would have been better suited putting out a small lineup with Melo at PF and only one of nene/martin/camby/najera. Rotations would have been better, quicker by default without any extra energy and it would have given Denver more options offensively.
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Post#131 » by IversonMVP » Wed Jan 9, 2008 1:07 am

king_of_kingz wrote:For the idiot who wrote this below, how many times did Steve Nash play in the Eastern Conference? 0. How many times Allen Iverson played for the Eastern Conference? Every Year since last. Imagine if those Dallas or Phoenix teams played in the eastern conference, different story. At least a better chance than AI will ever get.
In addition, the only reason why AI is so hard to guard is because he will fall, wiggle, and do anything in his power to put his defender in foul trouble. So what do you do when you try to play bowen-like defense on a flobber, you let him score. AI truly sucks. Take away the referees, there wouldn't be AI.

Damn thugs in the NBA run the court. Look at how they interact with those fools in stripes.

-= original quote snipped =-



I hate to get involved with this AI-Melo war, but do you know which team was the only team had won the Lakers in the playoffs? The Nash-led Suns?
I am not saying the Sixers was the 2nd team behind Lakers, but I just hate idiot who thinks he knows everything and trash AI like ****.
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Post#132 » by elbowthrower » Wed Jan 9, 2008 1:30 am

The Rebel wrote:
I still find the 2nd saddest legacy of Karl's career is that the only young player he has ever truly developed is Melo, and even with Melo he does not deserve much of the credit.


What about Payton, Kemp and McMillan?
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Post#133 » by corona » Wed Jan 9, 2008 3:02 am

What about Payton, Kemp and McMillan?

payton was almost 24 by the time karl was head coach in seattle.
kemp was in his 3rd year averaging 16/10 when karl took over.
mcmillan was 27 (though karl mentored him into being a coach)

i don't think he really developed any of those guys.
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Post#134 » by pickaxe » Wed Jan 9, 2008 4:23 am

The Rebel wrote::rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

For me being the only guy on here that starts the AI Melo Argument like mny like to claim, it sure did not take you guys long to start another at the end of another losing performance.

Anybody who did not expect this team to come out and struggle on defense has not been paying attention, they have played way to hard on that end, and were bound to run out of gas, but at the end of the day we went 3-1 which is much better then I expected. People can complain that the starters played too many minutes in the last three games, and they would be right, however they throw some of them into the other games and we may lose, as you cannot expect them to now have their confidence and timing after sitting on the bench for to weeks.

Ball movement still sucks, and what I would not give to have a few 3 point shooters on the bench that Karl could throw into this type of game when we are struggling. I still find the 2nd saddest legacy of Karl's career is that the only young player he has ever truly developed is Melo, and even with Melo he does not deserve much of the credit.



Not integrating these guys into the first three games to get the wins is cheating the team as a whole. Karl put everything down on the first three games and he got wins and because he didn't play guys they're not ready....he rolls the dice with the fourth one.

It's Karl's job to figure out how to integrate these guys so they're fresh. He saw the schedule and Phoenix sitting there at the end of two back to backs. Did he reserve any usable energy....nope.
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Post#135 » by elbowthrower » Wed Jan 9, 2008 5:34 am

corona wrote:
What about Payton, Kemp and McMillan?

payton was almost 24 by the time karl was head coach in seattle.
kemp was in his 3rd year averaging 16/10 when karl took over.
mcmillan was 27 (though karl mentored him into being a coach)

i don't think he really developed any of those guys.


Ok, Nate was a stretch.

But Payton had two bad years, performing way under expectations prior to Karl's arrival. His defense improved immensely under Karl. And he ranks Karl ahead of any coach he played for, including Jackson, Doc Rivers and Pat Riley.

Kemp had a good year prior to Karl's arrival but Karl is credited with showing Kemp how to mature and play under control. And look what happened after Kemp went to Cleveland.

Here's something from the Sonics page about the 92-93 season:

The team consisted of a potent mix of talent, masterfully molded by Coach George Karl. Power forward Shawn Kemp, who had always been capable of spectacular offensive moves and dramatic slam dunks, began to acquire a mature focus. Vociferous point guard Gary Payton developed a jump shot to augment his offensive repertoire and also gained a reputation as a tenacious on-the-ball defender.
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Post#136 » by Nutty Nats Fan » Wed Jan 9, 2008 7:33 am

Here's something from the Sonics page about the 92-93 season:

Right, 92-93 season. That is 15 years ago. A blind monkey could tell Karl is no longer a master of molding a potent mix of talent.
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Post#137 » by elbowthrower » Wed Jan 9, 2008 7:58 am

Nutty Nats Fan wrote:
Here's something from the Sonics page about the 92-93 season:

Right, 92-93 season. That is 15 years ago. A blind monkey could tell Karl is no longer a master of molding a potent mix of talent.


Sure it was a long time ago, but it was in response to the argument that Karl has never "developed" young players. (As if that's necessarily his job, btw).

I'm going to start an offshoot thread on this.
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Post#138 » by sportsmikegm23 » Wed Jan 9, 2008 10:10 am

king_of_kingz wrote:For the idiot who wrote this below, how many times did Steve Nash play in the Eastern Conference? 0. How many times Allen Iverson played for the Eastern Conference? Every Year since last. Imagine if those Dallas or Phoenix teams played in the eastern conference, different story. At least a better chance than AI will ever get.

In addition, the only reason why AI is so hard to guard is because he will fall, wiggle, and do anything in his power to put his defender in foul trouble. So what do you do when you try to play bowen-like defense on a flobber, you let him score. AI truly sucks. Take away the referees, there wouldn't be AI.

Damn thugs in the NBA run the court. Look at how they interact with those fools in stripes.

-= original quote snipped =-



For the moron that wrote this... above...

You are going to whine about the truth...Eastern conference or Western Conference Nash still has ZERO conference final wins and ZERO NBA Final appearences. You have to beat the best to be the best...

Take away the refs and there is no AI? Listen, Steve Nash is a brilliant point guard and my point was sometimes even brilliant players don't get to where they want to go. and as far as your refs thing? Nash gets his calls too...I have seem the a few good flops from Stevie... trust me a 2 time MVP gets a refs friendly whistle as well... Thugs run the court? did you really want to elorborate more on this??? Be careful....
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Post#139 » by pickaxe » Wed Jan 9, 2008 7:17 pm

Someone like Nash deserves to be in the Finals, but his team has to help him get there. No matter how he dissects the defense of any team - they have to overcome the same challenge of the Spurs that the Nuggets need to overcome.

Or maybe not. Maybe GS will knock SA out in the first round?
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Post#140 » by Nutty Nats Fan » Wed Jan 9, 2008 7:24 pm

elbowthrower wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Sure it was a long time ago, but it was in response to the argument that Karl has never "developed" young players. (As if that's necessarily his job, btw).

I'm going to start an offshoot thread on this.

Ah, yeah.. sorry then, lol.

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