Can Ausar and Duren play together in today’s NBA?

[Kalamazoo317]

I definitely think moving two younger "developmental" players in Bagley and Livers (even if they were low in the pecking order for development) helped balance out our roster. Getting Morris back and moving on from Hayes would help as well.

[sc8581]

Sick of watching Duren get clowned by true 7 footers
Sick of watching Ausar dribble into a turnover with no defensive players around him
Sick of watching Cade dribble the air out of the ball
Sick of watching basically everything about Ivey

Pick two of these guys and surround them with true professionals that actually know and accept their role. With the other two, a top 5 pick and a ton of cap space it shouldn't be that difficult

[buzzkilloton]

The early enthusiasm for Thompson was fun. We were passing around clips of him from when he two-hand volleyball blocked people at the rim, put star ball handlers in jail with his ultra-twitchy power, and caught ambitious lobs. But his inability to space the floor is hard to overlook.

Ausar has had some wild misses from 3. Here’s an arctic gust of a stat that’ll send a shiver up your spine: Thompson’s 15.5 percent mark from 3 is the second lowest for any player who has attempted at least 75 in a season, behind only Mookie Blaylock’s 15.4 percent. And that’s particularly troublesome considering the other young players Ausar’s been put around in Detroit.

The Pistons front office finally punted on the Killian Hayes Experience and cashed in its Bojan Bogdanovic and Alec Burks trade chips (for what I guess they saw as their best offer?), but major surgery still needs to be done on this roster. That leaves the presumed young core of Jalen Duren, Jaden Ivey, Cade Cunningham, and Thompson, a group of players that sets off all sorts of spacing alarms. Give me any of them individually, and I will find reasons to be enthused, but together, they worry me. Watching their penetrators attack dense traffic and occasionally kick it back out to a shooter gives me what feels like one of those barometric pressure headaches.

But the 3-point shot is gruesome right now, and the players Detroit is putting alongside him are only making it worse. Outside of early-season Wemby, Ausar may be the most poorly optimized rookie of this class.


https://nbarankings.theringer.com/rookie-rankings

[A_dub06]

I think we badly need a young centre that can shoot but can defend opposing centres but I don’t see a way surefire way of getting one. Personally I’d trade Duren since I think he projects to be a better rebounding/passing worse everywhere else version of prime Deandre Jordan, whereas Ausur is an average jump shot away from being a Swiss Army knife. I don’t believe that Duren will develop a reliable shot even from midrange and I think in this modern league having a centre that needs to be respected from 3 but can play decent post defence just opens the game up so much more. I think fans here cling to Duren because he’s one of the guys that seems to be actually developing and doing his job, but what that’s going to cost and the value it actually provides on the floor just simply isn’t worth it.

[bstein14]

The numbers are in, and they can play together. The numbers say Ausar and Killian couldn't play together even though Monty put them together for 472 minutes this season. The numbers are pretty interesting as well. Let's take a look at some of our duos.

The numbers show, Beef Stew is our #1 most important player when it comes to playing winning basketball this year.

Bojan Bogdanovic is our #1 least important player when it comes to playing winning basketball this year. When Bojan played our defensive rating fell off big time. His defensive drop off hurt more than what he added on offense this season.

MP = Minutes Played

Cade + Duren 792 MP = -7.7 Net Rating
Cade + Stew 791 MP = -4.5 Net Rating
Cade + Ivey 788 MP = -8.8 Net Rating
Ivey + Duren 783 MP = -6.2 Net Rating
Cade + Ausar 766 MP = -10.5 Net Rating
Bojan + Ivey 638 MP = -11.2 Net Rating (3rd worst defensive combo)
Cade + Bojan 596 MP = -10.4 Net Rating (Worst defensive combo but best offensive combo)
Stew + Ausar 593 MP = -6.8 Net Rating
Bojan + Duren 534 MP = -10.1 Net Rating (2nd worst defensive combo)
Ivey + Ausar 506 MP = -7.6 Net Rating
Stew + Ivey 494 MP = -2.5 Net Rating
Stew + Duren 479 MP = -1.9 Net Rating (Just 22 games played together)
Killian + Ausar 472 MP = -12.2 Net Rating (Our worst offensive duo)
Duren + Ausar 447 MP = -5.0 Net Rating (Our best defensive duo)

Burks + Ausar 427 MP = +1.7 Net Rating (Duo with most minutes played and a positive net rating together)
Sasser + Ausar 377 MP = +1.8 (Our highest net rating duo of any pair that played 250+ minutes together)

Side Note, Stewart + Ivey + Cade + Duren have only played 11 games together this season for a total of 115 minutes and those four have a very impressive +5.7 Net Rating when on the floor together the defense is great (rating would put them as 2nd best defense in the league behind only Minny when you look at team average) and an above league average TS% of 61.2%

Of those 115 minutes for that group of four, 40 of those minutes were played with Bojan (over just 3 games) and the team overall was incredible with our starting 5 from last year but they did only get 3 games played together this season and just 40 total minutes. 68.4TS% with those five on the floor its a shame we only got them together for 3 games all season.

Perhaps the most concerning thing about these numbers is that Cade + Ausar have played pretty poorly together.

[Kalamazoo317]

I'm guessing the Cade/Ausar numbers are so poor in large part due to turnovers.

[Cowology]

The numbers are in..

Fascinating stuff, thanks for sharing. Most of it makes perfect sense to me.

I'd be willing to wager the Cade/Ausar pair was so bad because it was frequently accompanied by Killian or another non-shooter. Monty was killing us with that nonsense.

Although Ausar played better as a starter and Sasser does a lot of his damage vs. other benches, etc. Lots of possible factors to consider.

Not surprised to see BeefStew shine here. Good for him.

[BadMofoPimp]

The early enthusiasm for Thompson was fun. We were passing around clips of him from when he two-hand volleyball blocked people at the rim, put star ball handlers in jail with his ultra-twitchy power, and caught ambitious lobs. But his inability to space the floor is hard to overlook.

Ausar has had some wild misses from 3. Here’s an arctic gust of a stat that’ll send a shiver up your spine: Thompson’s 15.5 percent mark from 3 is the second lowest for any player who has attempted at least 75 in a season, behind only Mookie Blaylock’s 15.4 percent. And that’s particularly troublesome considering the other young players Ausar’s been put around in Detroit.

The Pistons front office finally punted on the Killian Hayes Experience and cashed in its Bojan Bogdanovic and Alec Burks trade chips (for what I guess they saw as their best offer?), but major surgery still needs to be done on this roster. That leaves the presumed young core of Jalen Duren, Jaden Ivey, Cade Cunningham, and Thompson, a group of players that sets off all sorts of spacing alarms. Give me any of them individually, and I will find reasons to be enthused, but together, they worry me. Watching their penetrators attack dense traffic and occasionally kick it back out to a shooter gives me what feels like one of those barometric pressure headaches.

But the 3-point shot is gruesome right now, and the players Detroit is putting alongside him are only making it worse. Outside of early-season Wemby, Ausar may be the most poorly optimized rookie of this class.


https://nbarankings.theringer.com/rookie-rankings

On a massively losing basketball team, I would have Auser shoot the 3 even more so maybe he can learn to shoot them better.

[buzzkilloton]

The numbers are in, and they can play together. The numbers say Ausar and Killian couldn't play together even though Monty put them together for 472 minutes this season. The numbers are pretty interesting as well. Let's take a look at some of our duos.

The numbers show, Beef Stew is our #1 most important player when it comes to playing winning basketball this year.

.

I dont see how a -5 net rating proves it can work in todays NBA. First off its still not positive I understand we dont have many positive lineups in general and its better then alot but its still losing. More importantly this is just regular season numbers.

When you get into the playoffs vs good teams its a chess match and teams will exploit a lineup with two non shooters big time. Having some serious flaws in your core like two non zero shooters completely limits the teams ceiling. Once your into the 1st round of the playoffs vs a good team they will exploit the hell out of us and we wont have a chance.

[Mr Peanut]

The numbers are in, and they can play together. The numbers say Ausar and Killian couldn't play together even though Monty put them together for 472 minutes this season. The numbers are pretty interesting as well. Let's take a look at some of our duos.

The numbers show, Beef Stew is our #1 most important player when it comes to playing winning basketball this year.

Bojan Bogdanovic is our #1 least important player when it comes to playing winning basketball this year. When Bojan played our defensive rating fell off big time. His defensive drop off hurt more than what he added on offense this season.

MP = Minutes Played

Cade + Duren 792 MP = -7.7 Net Rating
Cade + Stew 791 MP = -4.5 Net Rating
Cade + Ivey 788 MP = -8.8 Net Rating
Ivey + Duren 783 MP = -6.2 Net Rating
Cade + Ausar 766 MP = -10.5 Net Rating
Bojan + Ivey 638 MP = -11.2 Net Rating (3rd worst defensive combo)
Cade + Bojan 596 MP = -10.4 Net Rating (Worst defensive combo but best offensive combo)
Stew + Ausar 593 MP = -6.8 Net Rating
Bojan + Duren 534 MP = -10.1 Net Rating (2nd worst defensive combo)
Ivey + Ausar 506 MP = -7.6 Net Rating
Stew + Ivey 494 MP = -2.5 Net Rating
Stew + Duren 479 MP = -1.9 Net Rating (Just 22 games played together)
Killian + Ausar 472 MP = -12.2 Net Rating (Our worst offensive duo)
Duren + Ausar 447 MP = -5.0 Net Rating (Our best defensive duo)

Burks + Ausar 427 MP = +1.7 Net Rating (Duo with most minutes played and a positive net rating together)
Sasser + Ausar 377 MP = +1.8 (Our highest net rating duo of any pair that played 250+ minutes together)

Side Note, Stewart + Ivey + Cade + Duren have only played 11 games together this season for a total of 115 minutes and those four have a very impressive +5.7 Net Rating when on the floor together the defense is great (rating would put them as 2nd best defense in the league behind only Minny when you look at team average) and an above league average TS% of 61.2%

Of those 115 minutes for that group of four, 40 of those minutes were played with Bojan (over just 3 games) and the team overall was incredible with our starting 5 from last year but they did only get 3 games played together this season and just 40 total minutes. 68.4TS% with those five on the floor its a shame we only got them together for 3 games all season.

Perhaps the most concerning thing about these numbers is that Cade + Ausar have played pretty poorly together.

These are interesting stats, thanks. The Stewart numbers are reassuring - despite him getting a bit of a bad rap because he's being pigeonholed as a stretch PF when that doesn't really suit his game, there's no doubt that he is a guy that can help a team win and his value goes beyond just raw stats.

The Bojan numbers don't surprise me - offensive powerhouse yes, but his defense was terrible throughout and was a big factor in why we often gave up big leads or faltered late in games.

[bstein14]

The numbers are in, and they can play together. The numbers say Ausar and Killian couldn't play together even though Monty put them together for 472 minutes this season. The numbers are pretty interesting as well. Let's take a look at some of our duos.

The numbers show, Beef Stew is our #1 most important player when it comes to playing winning basketball this year.

.

I dont see how a -5 net rating proves it can work in todays NBA. First off its still not positive I understand we dont have many positive lineups in general and its better then alot but its still losing. More importantly this is just regular season numbers.

When you get into the playoffs vs good teams its a chess match and teams will exploit a lineup with two non shooters big time. Having some serious flaws in your core like two non zero shooters completely limits the teams ceiling. Once your into the 1st round of the playoffs vs a good team they will exploit the hell out of us and we wont have a chance.

The numbers are pretty clear, that out of the 6 young draft picks... The team has been the best with Stew on the floor... yes he's still not a positive overall with the players he's played with... but 100% the team is better with him on the floor than off.

Here's an interesting way to look at it... +/- PER 36 for players that have played at least 16 games for us this season.

Stew -3.3
Sasser -4.0
Knox -4.3
Bagley -4.3
Umude -5.5
Ausar -5.8
Ivey -5.8
Duren -6.5
Burks -6.5
Cade -7.9
Hayes -8.7
Bojan -9.9
Harris -10.2
Wiseman -11.8
Livers -15.3

Stewart has played 1045 minutes this season and is a -97 in those minutes... He's played 937 minutes without Livers and he is -45 in those minutes. He's played 448 minutes this season without Livers or Killian on the floor and he's a +8 in those minutes.

[buzzkilloton]

The numbers are in, and they can play together. The numbers say Ausar and Killian couldn't play together even though Monty put them together for 472 minutes this season. The numbers are pretty interesting as well. Let's take a look at some of our duos.

The numbers show, Beef Stew is our #1 most important player when it comes to playing winning basketball this year.

.

I dont see how a -5 net rating proves it can work in todays NBA. First off its still not positive I understand we dont have many positive lineups in general and its better then alot but its still losing. More importantly this is just regular season numbers.

When you get into the playoffs vs good teams its a chess match and teams will exploit a lineup with two non shooters big time. Having some serious flaws in your core like two non zero shooters completely limits the teams ceiling. Once your into the 1st round of the playoffs vs a good team they will exploit the hell out of us and we wont have a chance.

The numbers are pretty clear, that out of the 6 young draft picks... The team has been the best with Stew on the floor... yes he's still not a positive overall with the players he's played with... but 100% the team is better with him on the floor than off.

Here's an interesting way to look at it... +/- PER 36 for players that have played at least 16 games for us this season.

Stew -3.3
Sasser -4.0
Knox -4.3
Bagley -4.3
Umude -5.5
Ausar -5.8
Ivey -5.8
Duren -6.5
Burks -6.5
Cade -7.9
Hayes -8.7
Bojan -9.9
Harris -10.2
Wiseman -11.8
Livers -15.3

Stewart has played 1045 minutes this season and is a -97 in those minutes... He's played 937 minutes without Livers and he is -45 in those minutes. He's played 448 minutes this season without Livers or Killian on the floor and he's a +8 in those minutes.

I was saying your post doesnt prove that Ausar+Duren can play together in todays NBA the thread title. Maybe I mistook the meaning of your post as you opened with "The numbers are in and they can play together" as I took that as meaning Ausar+Duren.

I do agree with you on the numbers showing Stew is important for our current team. It makes since because Durens rim protection is lacking while Stew is a actually a good rim protector. He protects the rim by being in the right spot and bodying more then having big block numbers. Also he spaces the floor. Then you have to just factor in BB should not be a starter as hes such a negative on defense.

Of course that doesnt mean we are a good team with Stew in or its a optimal lineup configuration for being a winning team in the future. Its just we have a broken lineup with alot of non shooters in the core and alot of other players who cant defend. Weaver has really put together a awkward set of players for going in being year 4 and already having 4 draft classes+off seasons to make it work.

[bstein14]

I dont see how a -5 net rating proves it can work in todays NBA. First off its still not positive I understand we dont have many positive lineups in general and its better then alot but its still losing. More importantly this is just regular season numbers.

When you get into the playoffs vs good teams its a chess match and teams will exploit a lineup with two non shooters big time. Having some serious flaws in your core like two non zero shooters completely limits the teams ceiling. Once your into the 1st round of the playoffs vs a good team they will exploit the hell out of us and we wont have a chance.

The numbers are pretty clear, that out of the 6 young draft picks... The team has been the best with Stew on the floor... yes he's still not a positive overall with the players he's played with... but 100% the team is better with him on the floor than off.

Here's an interesting way to look at it... +/- PER 36 for players that have played at least 16 games for us this season.

Stew -3.3
Sasser -4.0
Knox -4.3
Bagley -4.3
Umude -5.5
Ausar -5.8
Ivey -5.8
Duren -6.5
Burks -6.5
Cade -7.9
Hayes -8.7
Bojan -9.9
Harris -10.2
Wiseman -11.8
Livers -15.3

Stewart has played 1045 minutes this season and is a -97 in those minutes... He's played 937 minutes without Livers and he is -45 in those minutes. He's played 448 minutes this season without Livers or Killian on the floor and he's a +8 in those minutes.

I was saying your post doesnt prove that Ausar+Duren can play together in todays NBA the thread title. Maybe I mistook the meaning of your post as you opened with "The numbers are in and they can play together" as I took that as meaning Ausar+Duren.

I do agree with you on the numbers showing Stew is important for our current team. It makes since because Durens rim protection is lacking while Stew is a actually a good rim protector. He protects the rim by being in the right spot and bodying more then having big block numbers. Also he spaces the floor. Then you have to just factor in BB should not be a starter as hes such a negative on defense.

Of course that doesnt mean we are a good team with Stew in or its a optimal lineup configuration for being a winning team in the future. Its just we have a broken lineup with alot of non shooters in the core and alot of other players who cant defend.

He's another for ya. Ausar and Duren have played 219 minutes together this season without Hayes or Bojan on the court with them (34 different games)... and in those 219 minutes they are a -1 so they've played even ball when they didn't have Hayes and/or Bojan with them on the floor.... obviously all of their games moving forward this season will be without Hayes and/or Bojan so hopefully they are able to continue to play close to even ball in their minutes together moving forward this season.

[buzzkilloton]

T[/b]

.

He's another for ya. Ausar and Duren have played 219 minutes together this season without Hayes or Bojan on the court with them (34 different games)... and in those 219 minutes they are a -1 so they've played even ball when they didn't have Hayes and/or Bojan with them on the floor.... obviously all of their games moving forward this season will be without Hayes and/or Bojan so hopefully they are able to continue to play close to even ball in their minutes together moving forward this season.

I do respect you putting in work to show some numbers as its always interesting to look at things at diff angles.

That said you still have to factor in how is this going to work vs good teams in the postseason if were running a lineup with two complete zeros on the outside. It may work vs some teams at times in the reg season at times. How will it work vs the Bucks,Cavs,Celtics etc in the 1st round of the playoffs though?

Its not going to work they will destroy us. I understand were a long ways away from that 1st round playoff matchup but it still should be thought about now as were building the base.

Ofc their is time for improvements but do we really think they get there? We very well maybe better off moving one now while their value is high as their young so we front run the future problem rather then just sit back and pray. Hence why we need to get a good GM in here who is capable of solving these things.

[Piston Pete]

If Beef Stew is so important, should we be considering trading Duren for a large ransom?

That way, having two non-shooters next to each other (Ausar and Duren) wouldn’t be an issue:

Ivey
Cade
Font
Ausar
Stewart

[Kalamazoo317]

If Beef Stew is so important, should we be considering trading Duren for a large ransom?

That way, having two non-shooters next to each other (Ausar and Duren) wouldn’t be an issue:

Ivey
Cade
Font
Ausar
Stewart

If we end up in a draft spot where we can take that French Center who can somewhat shoot, we will really have to consider Duren's future fit on the roster and whether it makes sense to flip him. Though I'd also be open to trading our pick if we could get a good wing.

[Piston Pete]

If Beef Stew is so important, should we be considering trading Duren for a large ransom?

That way, having two non-shooters next to each other (Ausar and Duren) wouldn’t be an issue:

Ivey
Cade
Font
Ausar
Stewart

If we end up in a draft spot where we can take that French Center who can somewhat shoot, we will really have to consider Duren's future fit on the roster and whether it makes sense to flip him. Though I'd also be open to trading our pick if we could get a good wing.

Or any 3 or 4…


Ivey
Cade
Risacher
Ausar
Stewart

[A_dub06]

Regardless of whether people think Stewart starting at Center would make us a better team or not, he is not a starting centre or even a high minutes backup on a good team. We have Duren who should be getting minutes to develop. Yes we lack shooting but our young core should be getting as many minutes they can handle and Stewart isn’t going to become dominant at anything ever. Monty just needs to get creative with rotations.

[Kalamazoo317]

What's Duren going to become dominant at? Maybe rebounding? Anything else? Is he the starting center on a good team? Advanced stats are way more favorable on Stew's impact than Duren's.

[BDM22]

I'm guessing the Cade/Ausar numbers are so poor in large part due to turnovers.

Also Monty tended to play Ausar, Cade, and Killian (and Stew and Duren) all together in a lot of the minutes that Ausar and Cade shared for the first couple of months.

This is the issue with not firing Monty. We can't really judge this core properly because he is totally incompetent when it comes to putting semi-rational lineups on the floor.