Game 68 - Pistons @ Celtics - 7:30pm ET

[Snakebites]

Gosh, I remember when the Pistons gave away Chauncey, Dice, etc., to make cap room, and then spending 100 million on BG and CV who did nothing.

Pistons can't re-sign all their young players, and if Weaver waits, we'll get less or nothing... Trade and/or sign PROVEN players. This recycling needs to end, this constant kicking the can.

We also gave Rip a bloated new contract. We could have had cap space without the trade.

We chose Rip over Chauncey. It makes me vomit to this day.

Well, we still could have kept Chauncey, and not traded him for AI, and the cap space we used was on guys who did nothing on either end. Rip was a great player for us.

Yes he was. Before that contract. Not after.

[MortSahlfan]

We also gave Rip a bloated new contract. We could have had cap space without the trade.

We chose Rip over Chauncey. It makes me vomit to this day.

Well, we still could have kept Chauncey, and not traded him for AI, and the cap space we used was on guys who did nothing on either end. Rip was a great player for us.

Yes he was. Before that contract. Not after.

I know Rip got the contract extension before the trade. I wanted to keep that backcourt. We were contenders for a long time, and even though we didn't win more than one title, I rather be a top team than this "let's blow it up" and get a decade of lottery picks and go nowhere.

The only time Denver got to the WCF was because of CB.

[buzzkilloton]

I think a onball player can work next to Cade fine. Just not Jaden Ivey a on ball combo who cant 3 or D ands best trait is slashing. This archetype is better suited as a 6thman.

Like if we could get old CP3 the version who went to the Suns not the washed one on the Warriors that would work perfect next to Cade. Booker and the Suns had a huge level up when they did that. Tons of players would work great next to Cade just Jaden Ivey doesnt.

Yeah, so it sounds like since we are aware that we need another guard playmaker next to Cade, but they also have to be a great shooter and defender to make up for Cade there, it really means we need someone better than Cade next to Cade lol.

I just feel like if the window of player that works next to you is that narrow, it's not a great sign.

For me, any player on the roster would be open for trading in the right deal, but I'd also lean toward a change at coach in the meantime toward someone that we can at least see TRY to make Cade/Ivey work be it with the play calling or rotations. This was game 68 and we still got Monty going through the motions.

No the problem isnt “better then Cade” the problem is the combo guard cant 3 and cant D.

A on ball player that could do those things or even one of those could be fine. A off ball player that could do those could work. A player like Jrue could work. Reed Sheppard projected top 5 in the draft could work too.

[Laimbeer]

I think a onball player can work next to Cade fine. Just not Jaden Ivey a on ball combo who cant 3 or D ands best trait is slashing. This archetype is better suited as a 6thman.

Like if we could get old CP3 the version who went to the Suns not the washed one on the Warriors that would work perfect next to Cade. Booker and the Suns had a huge level up when they did that. Tons of players would work great next to Cade just Jaden Ivey doesnt.

Yeah, so it sounds like since we are aware that we need another guard playmaker next to Cade, but they also have to be a great shooter and defender to make up for Cade there, it really means we need someone better than Cade next to Cade lol.

I just feel like if the window of player that works next to you is that narrow, it's not a great sign.

For me, any player on the roster would be open for trading in the right deal, but I'd also lean toward a change at coach in the meantime toward someone that we can at least see TRY to make Cade/Ivey work be it with the play calling or rotations. This was game 68 and we still got Monty going through the motions.

No the problem isnt “better then Cade” the problem is the combo guard cant 3 and cant D.

A on ball player that could do those things or even one of those could be fine. A off ball player that could do those could work. A player like Jrue could work. Ivey doesn’t work.

So you want an on-ball player (I assume playmaker?) who can shoot and play defense next to Cade? I mean, what is Cade doing really well, exactly? You want this other guy to check every box.

[Neptune]

Yeah, so it sounds like since we are aware that we need another guard playmaker next to Cade, but they also have to be a great shooter and defender to make up for Cade there, it really means we need someone better than Cade next to Cade lol.

I just feel like if the window of player that works next to you is that narrow, it's not a great sign.

For me, any player on the roster would be open for trading in the right deal, but I'd also lean toward a change at coach in the meantime toward someone that we can at least see TRY to make Cade/Ivey work be it with the play calling or rotations. This was game 68 and we still got Monty going through the motions.

No the problem isnt “better then Cade” the problem is the combo guard cant 3 and cant D.

A on ball player that could do those things or even one of those could be fine. A off ball player that could do those could work. A player like Jrue could work. Ivey doesn’t work.

So you want an on-ball player (I assume playmaker?) who can shoot and play defense next to Cade? I mean, what is Cade doing really well, exactly? You want this other guy to check every box.

Exactly! Folks here want a guy that checks every box, in addition, a guy that actually wants to be here. You have two guards that's young, want to be here, had over a 60 point game together and are on there 1st year playing together. But just because we aren't instantly a playoff team, folks want change? How about we make a change at the PF spot we've been needing for years? Why not upgrade our bench?

[buzzkilloton]

So you want an on-ball player (I assume playmaker?) who can shoot and play defense next to Cade? I mean, what is Cade doing really well, exactly? You want this other guy to check every box.

Asking for a player that can play "on or off ball" that can shoot or play defense isnt "asking for every box".

If you need to ask what Cade is doing well then you havent been watching Cade sinces hes gotten his feet under him this season.

[bstein14]

If we want to take a big jump next year, we do need a good veteran (25+) guard who can calm the team in late game moments. Cade still makes a ton of crunch time mistakes and we desperately need a more experienced guard who can help the young guys better understand how to pace the game. Right now we constantly pile mistake onto mistake onto mistake. Jrue Holiday would be most ideal but obviously he isn't going to want to leave Boston to come here. CP3 is likely going to a place to try to win a championship in what will likely be his last season in the league. A guy like Tyus Jones could fill that role for us and there are a few other likely cheaper options as well of guys who can help our young guards out.

I'm also fine with pushing one of Sasser, Grimes, etc to the 11th man role they haven't been consistent enough to just be gifted a rotation spot for next year we need to be deeper and we needer to have more competition for playing time. Even this year it really just came down to Wiseman or Bagley for backup C minutes beyond that there weren't really any rotation battles the end of the bench was just too trash.

[vege]

If we want to take a big jump next year, we do need a good veteran (25+) guard who can calm the team in late game moments. Cade still makes a ton of crunch time mistakes and we desperately need a more experienced guard who can help the young guys better understand how to pace the game. Right now we constantly pile mistake onto mistake onto mistake. Jrue Holiday would be most ideal but obviously he isn't going to want to leave Boston to come here. CP3 is likely going to a place to try to win a championship in what will likely be his last season in the league. A guy like Tyus Jones could fill that role for us and there are a few other likely cheaper options as well of guys who can help our young guards out.

I'm also fine with pushing one of Sasser, Grimes, etc to the 11th man role they haven't been consistent enough to just be gifted a rotation spot for next year we need to be deeper and we needer to have more competition for playing time. Even this year it really just came down to Wiseman or Bagley for backup C minutes beyond that there weren't really any rotation battles the end of the bench was just too trash.

You described Monte Morris, but we had to get those late distant 2nds, they're too important.

We are not going to improve to a respectable team, bringing back 8 rotation players from a 12 wins team, that's laughable. The only way for us to improve is if the entire FO is fired.

[buzzkilloton]

If we w.

You described Monte Morris, but we had to get those late distant 2nds, they're too important.

We are not going to improve to a respectable team, bringing back 8 rotation players from a 12 wins team, that's laughable. The only way for us to improve is if the entire FO is fired.

Just add former Piston Tobias Harris, grab a vet guard, and draft another French guy and were on our way to the promised land.

Seriously this roster needs alot of work. We have tons of cap space we need to hit the trade market to get a good player.

[buzzkilloton]

Past 15 games stats:

Cade-22.4 ppg 7.9apg 3.2tov 4.9 reb 46% FG, 39% 3pt 6.43pa, 3.9 FTA at 87%

Ivey-14.6 ppg 3.9apg 2.5 tov 2.4reb 37.4%fg 22.2% 3pt 5.43pa, 4.3fta at 86%


Cades is having one of best stretches of basketball lately. Meanwhile Ivey has been stinking up the joint ever since Cade came back outside of 1 or 2 games. This is because their games dont mesh on the court.

Cade is showing hes one of the best passers in the league already. Hes #11 in the league in assist per. Hes been getting double and at times triple teamed and we dont have the personal to make the other teams pay for it. Surround him with guys who can shoot and defend and hes going to be a superstar.

[buzzkilloton]

Ausar has actually been shooting a little better over the past 15 compared to ROS. 27% on 3 attempts per game. If Ausar can be a competent shooter hes going to be an awesome piece. Still a long ways to go but hopefully with a offseason working wiht NBA shooting coaches he improves.

Even with Ausar though if he cant shoot he cant start either. Pray that he makes one of those year two jumps. He brings things to the table with the defensive IQ and tools that arent easy to find. Gotta hold him and hope he gets their even if its a low % shot he does if it hits its worth it.

Clearly the best way to improve this roster is by trading Ivey+lotto pick to get a player worth using all a large amount of cap space on that fits our franchise player. Outside of that simply drafting Reed Sheppard and starting him will help us alot. Then we can move Ivey to a high usage 6th man role where his skillset is more fit which will bolster the bench unit.

[buzzkilloton]

Oh look even James Edwards is questioning the Cade+Ivey fit.

"However, if he’s going to play alongside Cunningham, he has to be better shooting the ball. Ivey is in the midst of a damaging 3-point shooting slump dating back to Feb. 1. Since then, he’s shooting 31.9 percent on close to 6.0 attempts per game. Over his last 10 games, the second-year guard is at 21.3 percent on 6.1 attempts per game. On the season, Ivey is in the low 30 percent on both pull-up 3s and catch-and-shoot 3s, per NBA.com.

Ivey has been the epitome of a streaky distance shooter since entering the NBA. Before this 10-game slump, he shot over 43 percent in February. Ivey has a trend of solid-to-great 3-point shooting one month and then truly detrimental 3-point shooting the next. Maybe Ivey will become the consistent 3-point threat the Pistons need, to make the pairing with Cunningham truly work. It’s just not there yet, and given the fragile state of the franchise at this point in time, Detroit’s decision-makers may need to figure out what they believe the future holds for Ivey as a shooter if the goal is to continue to make him a starter going forward."

[bstein14]

The biggest issue with their fit is whether or not Ivey can catch and shoot three pointers. If he can't space the floor for Cade the fit isn't there. If he can the fit is fine IMO. Ideally we'd be better if one of the two was an above average defender but the biggest issue with fit IMO is they both need to be able to sit at the three point line and catch and shoot at a high percentage.

[BDM22]

Past 15 games stats:

Cade-22.4 ppg 7.9apg 3.2tov 4.9 reb 46% FG, 39% 3pt 6.43pa, 3.9 FTA at 87%

Ivey-14.6 ppg 3.9apg 2.5 tov 2.4reb 37.4%fg 22.2% 3pt 5.43pa, 4.3fta at 86%


Cades is having one of best stretches of basketball lately. Meanwhile Ivey has been stinking up the joint ever since Cade came back outside of 1 or 2 games. This is because their games dont mesh on the court.

Cade is showing hes one of the best passers in the league already. Hes #11 in the league in assist per. Hes been getting double and at times triple teamed and we dont have the personal to make the other teams pay for it. Surround him with guys who can shoot and defend and hes going to be a superstar.

So wait, weren’t you earlier in the thread (or another one) talking about grading Ivey on a wider sample? But when it’s Cade we look at a tight window where he’s been shooting it great, even though we’ve seen BOTH Ivey and Cade go through big streaks and slumps throughout their short careers?

2 weeks ago Ivey had a better 3 point average on the season than Cade. Cade’s career 3 point percentage is still lower than Ivey’s. As is his TS%. But one’s a superstar and one’s a bum lol

Spoiler: we’re talking about a year 2 and a year 3 player. Both have shown some signs of being able to shoot the 3 but have been streaky. 2nd and 3rd year players improve, and shooting is one of the easier areas to improve. Neither are so bad that incremental improvements can’t get them into a good range. The other thing that tends to improve over time is DEFENSE. Both of them have the tools to become solid defenders and have shown flashes to go with the lapses. Having a lot of terrible defensive teammates will accentuate that.

Again, add some quality vets and get a coach that wants to make an attempt at playing guys in roles they’ll thrive at. This is the same dude who played Cade with Killian, Ausar, Stew, and Duren for a large portion of the season. Assuming he’s putting the Ivey and Cade pairing in any kind of position to succeed is obviously a mistake.

[buzzkilloton]

Past 15 games stats:



Cade is showing hes one of the best passers in the league already. Hes #11 in the league in assist per. Hes been getting double and at times triple teamed and we dont have the personal to make the other teams pay for it. Surround him with guys who can shoot and defend and hes going to be a superstar.

So wait, .

My point is that when Cade is playing his best ball Ivey stinks. Ivey was playing OK before Cade came back from injury I agree. This has been my point the entire season their games have no synergy together. Its not coaching its not experience its simply trying to fit a square peg into a round hole it doesnt work.

Even the biggest Pistons shill media in the business who says nothing negative about the Pistons can see the fit not working.

[buzzkilloton]

The biggest issue with their fit is whether or not Ivey can catch and shoot three pointers. If he can't space the floor for Cade the fit isn't there. If he can the fit is fine IMO. Ideally we'd be better if one of the two was an above average defender but the biggest issue with fit IMO is they both need to be able to sit at the three point line and catch and shoot at a high percentage.

Yeah if Ivey was a knock down shooter it would be completely diff. Hes never been a knock down shooter at any level though even college from the shorter line. Hes a streaky shooter with bad mechanics. He even returned to college to raise his draft stock and work on his shooting mechanics which were even worse before he did that.

Also the below average shooting is compounded by the fact our "core 4" has Duren and Ausar in it. The 2 guard is the position in the NBA with the highest average 3pt % at 37.4%. So rather then have a average 3pt shooter there we have a negative AND we have two other spots filled with guys who cant shoot.

I understand ignoring fit and just drafting BAP when you're in a rebuild. Eventually though you can get to the point where you need to start trading some players due to ignoring fit so you can actually have a winning team.