Game 68 - Pistons @ Celtics - 7:30pm ET

[MortSahlfan]

Gosh, I remember when the Pistons gave away Chauncey, Dice, etc., to make cap room, and then spending 100 million on BG and CV who did nothing.

Pistons can't re-sign all their young players, and if Weaver waits, we'll get less or nothing... Trade and/or sign PROVEN players. This recycling needs to end, this constant kicking the can.

[MotownMadness]

You know interest is at an all-time low with this team when we still on page one well after a game has ended. Even during the massive losing streak and really all the years I've been posting here this really never happens. No one cares right now and the hope many people had about our "young core" continues to dwindle. The past few years the off seasons have been more exciting than the regular seasons.... especially come late in the season.

I saw that there was a game tonight, checked the thread, read that Cade was out. Immediately lost interest, played warzone instead, then watched replays of other games later.

There was, even with the Celtics missing a bunch of players, and the Pistons healthy, a less then 10% chance (im being nice) of a victory. Without Cade, that drops to virtually zero.

My interest in the team is at an all-time low. Even more so then the Gordon/Villanueva era, when I walked away for quite awhile. My interest is at an all-time high for the rest of the league though, and that is due to the Pistons organization driving me away. (By the way, peeps need to watch other games right now, as the refs have stopped blowing the whistle, and the games have been amazing to watch.)

This is, since I've been a fan, which is going on 40 damn years, the worst era of Pistons basketball I've ever witnessed, and the Pistons have statistically, one of the worst GM's of all-time


I see no way out of this mess. Why watch, when there is virtually no chance of the team winning?

Yeah i lost interest in watching it once i seen Cade was out

[buzzkilloton]

Trade Ivey or Cade.

Seriously. They don't fit together. Move one while there's still value to be had, there will be none after enough time of them never having good games together.

I still think that 99% of NBA coaches could make it work. Any rational human would see that Cade and Ivey should be staggered as .

Interestingly enough, it looks like its Ausar that doesn't fit with the Cade/Ivey duo... same goes for Hayes or Livers obviously. They need a shooter at the three to space the floor for what they want to do.

ICade + Ivey + Font have played 256 minutes together over 16 games and have a +2.3 net rating
Cade + Ivey + Ausar have played 504 minutes together over 41 games and have a -7.0 net rating
Cade + Ivey + Stew have played 553 minutes together over 33 games and have a -0.7 net rating (60.4 TS% which is good)

Its not a surprise that the numbers go down with Ausar on the court. Hes a rookie and is also a negative shooter. The hope with him being a rookie is he will improve his shooting going into next season with a off-season of working with NBA shooting coaches. Ausar projects to be a ALL NBA defensive level player which is something we desperately need but if he cant shoot he cant play.

This is the entire problem with our "core 4". Ivey is a bad shooter, Duren is a zero from outside, and Ausar cant shoot. Troy has built a foundation that doesnt work in theory or in practice.

Edit-
256 minutes of a positive net rating doesnt prove the backcourt can work with just an added shooter either. Those minutes were all post trade deadline when Cade+Tecch were scorching hot likely vs soft games. Ivey has really only played well in a couple games since Cade returned from the extended break he has not a been a diff maker.

[DBC10]

I still think that 99% of NBA coaches could make it work. Any rational human would see that Cade and Ivey should be staggered as .

Interestingly enough, it looks like its Ausar that doesn't fit with the Cade/Ivey duo... same goes for Hayes or Livers obviously. They need a shooter at the three to space the floor for what they want to do.

ICade + Ivey + Font have played 256 minutes together over 16 games and have a +2.3 net rating
Cade + Ivey + Ausar have played 504 minutes together over 41 games and have a -7.0 net rating
Cade + Ivey + Stew have played 553 minutes together over 33 games and have a -0.7 net rating (60.4 TS% which is good)

Its not a surprise that the numbers go down with Ausar on the court. Hes a rookie and is also a negative shooter. The hope with him being a rookie is he will improve his shooting going into next season with a off-season of working with NBA shooting coaches. Ausar projects to be a ALL NBA defensive level player which is something we desperately need but if he cant shoot he cant play.

This is the entire problem with our "core 4". Ivey is a bad shooter, Duren is a zero from outside, and Ausar cant shoot. Troy has built a foundation that doesnt work in theory or in practice.

Edit-
256 minutes of a positive net rating doesnt prove the backcourt can work with just an added shooter either. Those minutes were likely all post trade deadline when Cade+Tecch were scorching hot vs soft teams. Iveys been struggling for quite awhile outside of a couple random games.

I think the point was the 256 minutes at least shows that anything and everything bad isn't exacerbated as opposed to shoehorning guys like Ausar, Stew, and to an extent Duren with Cade/Ivey. I think the backcourt can still work if they had willing guys that can show they can shoot it while not being disasters on defense. How many top teams are out there that are a complete nil in shooting/scoring at the 3, 4, and 5 like ours (minus Fontecchio)? Stew is ok as that 4 but he's still likely a sixth man/back up and we have been playing the twin towers line up as much as possible with Stew/Duren. It wasn't fair at the start

Ivey is going through a slump of sorts, give it some time

[buzzkilloton]

Ivey is going through a slump of sorts, give it some time

" had willing guys that can show they can shoot it while not being disasters on defense"

The bolded is literally describing Ivey. Hes a negative shooter and bad defender.

How many winning teams are starting two on ball guards that are bad on defense and one who cant shoot?

Our franchise player is Cade Cunningham. We need guys that have synergy with his game on the court. Guards are the easiest thing to replace through the draft or in FA. Replacing Ivey is the most logical way to improve the team while also recouping some value on the trade market.

Ivey has been on a slump since Cade came from his injury break. Hes had a few good games but overall hes been consistently inconsistent.

[bstein14]

Ivey has actually increased his 2 point FG% quite a bit in year two, he has increased his FT %, he's reduced his TO rate and he also has improved defensively (from horrible to poor).... It's really just his 3 point percentage that is down in his second year beyond that he has less assists but the ball is in his hands a lot less as well. I think is fine with Cade if Ivey can get to 38 or 39% from deep... hopefully at least 40% on corner catch and shoots as well.

[DBC10]

Ivey is going through a slump of sorts, give it some time

" had willing guys that can show they can shoot it while not being disasters on defense"

The bolded is literally describing Ivey. Hes a negative shooter and bad defender.

How many winning teams are starting two on ball guards that are bad on defense and one who cant shoot?

Our franchise player is Cade Cunningham. We need guys that have synergy with his game on the court. Guards are the easiest thing to replace through the draft or in FA. Replacing Ivey is the most logical way to improve the team while also recouping some value on the trade market.

Ivey has been on a slump since Cade came from his injury break. Hes had a few good games but overall hes been consistently inconsistent.

Bears repeating if we're bringing in his recent slump, his point before slump showed many flashes of potential as a shooter that can keep defenses honest since he got his shooting percentages up quite a bit from where he started with the whole Hayes/Livers fiasco

I think that's where the hang up is on his potential as a pair up with Cade or rather separate them indefinitely. Guys with his unique athleticism and scoring potential like Ivey don't grow on trees and where in a guard centric world, you'd rather keep the guards rather than throw them away barring some seismic trade

I've said this before, but Ausar, Stew, and Duren have been the drag to our back court play, not the other way around. It is not a secret that Ivey needs the ball in his hands with which we refuse to give him full green light, but also true is we need less heliocentric offense when Cade is in too. We're going to have the same issue regardless of who we get at the guard spot (that is realistically obtainable) and always wishing more & more when it's more symptom than cause

[buzzkilloton]

Ivey has actually increased his 2 point FG% quite a bit in year two, he has increased his FT %, he's reduced his TO rate and he also has improved defensively (from horrible to poor).... It's really just his 3 point percentage that is down in his second year beyond that he has less assists but the ball is in his hands a lot less as well. I think is fine with Cade if Ivey can get to 38 or 39% from deep... hopefully at least 40% on corner catch and shoots as well.

His usage % is only down a small amount from year one. He was 25.4% this year its 24.5%. I actually expected the usage % to be down much more then that.

If you look at his per 36 numbers alot of the stats the same are similar this year too last. Shot attempts,,FT, and 3pa. His TS% is up a bit. Less turnovers but less assist. His TOV% is down 2% that could just be randomness. The biggest areas of improvement were his 2pt% and his blk %.

Like their is small improvements. Have to remember he didnt come out as a true Freshman he returned to school to raise his draft capital. He made a huge jump then esp in his shooting. Obv hes going to improve with time but sometimes players dont make huge jumps like fans think they will.

[buzzkilloton]

Ivey is going through a slump of sorts, give it some time

[b]" hnt.

Bears repeating if we're bringing in his recent slump, his point before slump showed many flashes of potential as a shooter that can keep defenses honest since he got his shooting percentages up quite a bit from where he started with the whole Hayes/Livers fiasco

I think that's where the hang up is on his potential as a pair up with Cade or rather separate them indefinitely. Guys with his unique athleticism and scoring potential like Ivey don't grow on trees and where in a guard centric world, you'd rather keep the guards rather than throw them away barring some seismic trade

I've said this before, but Ausar, Stew, and Duren have been the drag to our back court play, not the other way around. It is not a secret that Ivey needs the ball in his hands with which we refuse to give him full green light, but also true is we need less heliocentric offense when Cade is in too. We're going to have the same issue regardless of who we get at the guard spot (that is realistically obtainable) and always wishing more & more when it's more symptom than cause

Overall I'm looking at Iveys entire body of work. Like the post above me I made I've looked at all his numbers from year 2 to one many times. I've watched a ton of him in college as well. This way the ups and downs are considered equally. Of course I'm looking at his current season as the most important and most importantly my eye test.

His athleticism is for sure what keeps him on the map. That athleticism and still being on a rookie deal is what keeps his trade value up.

I think Ivey if he puts it all together could turn out being a D.Fox type player but with less steals(Ivey has never had a good steal rate ncaa either). I just dont see the fit with Cade. I wouldnt give him away or anything.

[flow]

Two pages, but not one comment on the game. There were a couple of somewhat interesting things:

1. Umude got a well-deserved nba start, and big minutes.

2. Evbuomwan played 18 minutes off the bench, and played well.

3. Fournier played a bad game following his good game.

4. Taj Gibson saw 10 minutes of action.

.

[MortSahlfan]

Ivey is going through a slump of sorts, give it some time

" had willing guys that can show they can shoot it while not being disasters on defense"

The bolded is literally describing Ivey. Hes a negative shooter and bad defender.

How many winning teams are starting two on ball guards that are bad on defense and one who cant shoot?

Our franchise player is Cade Cunningham. We need guys that have synergy with his game on the court. Guards are the easiest thing to replace through the draft or in FA. Replacing Ivey is the most logical way to improve the team while also recouping some value on the trade market.

Ivey has been on a slump since Cade came from his injury break. Hes had a few good games but overall hes been consistently inconsistent.

Weaver wants all his draft picks to work out.. He's very stubborn. You saw how much we had to endure of Killian Hayes. I think it's going to be the same with Ivey.

[BDM22]

Ivey is going through a slump of sorts, give it some time

" had willing guys that can show they can shoot it while not being disasters on defense"

The bolded is literally describing Ivey. Hes a negative shooter and bad defender.

How many winning teams are starting two on ball guards that are bad on defense and one who cant shoot?

Our franchise player is Cade Cunningham. We need guys that have synergy with his game on the court. Guards are the easiest thing to replace through the draft or in FA. Replacing Ivey is the most logical way to improve the team while also recouping some value on the trade market.

Ivey has been on a slump since Cade came from his injury break. Hes had a few good games but overall hes been consistently inconsistent.

Weaver wants all his draft picks to work out.. He's very stubborn. You saw how much we had to endure of Killian Hayes. I think it's going to be the same with Ivey.

Killian was so horrible immediately that no one was going to offer anything for him in some kind of trade. That's why he had to be waived. It's like saying Washington is being "Stubborn" with Johnny Davis. When the reality is that he's so terrible at basketball that they have no option but ride it out and pray he becomes something.

I'd also say that trying to draw comparison between Ivey to Killian is pretty out there.

We need a coach that can find a balance in play calls that let both Cade and Ivey thrive, it's that simple. Nothing Monty has done in Detroit has shown that he's capable of that. This idea that we need to have Cade and a bunch of guys who just stand around waiting to shoot threes or dunk while Cade plays poor man's Luka is a very short sighted one, IMO.

Other teams manage to feature multiple guys that play with the ball in their hands, there is nothing Cade has shown that says he should be the only one on this team that ever touches the ball beyond just to shoot or dunk it. That's not a winning formula.

[buzzkilloton]

" had willing guys that can show they can shoot it while not being disasters on defense"

The bolded is literally describing Ivey. Hes a negative shooter and bad defender.

How many winning teams are starting two on ball guards that are bad on defense and one who cant shoot?
t.

I'd also say that trying to draw comparison between Ivey to Killian is pretty out there.

We need a coach that can find a balance in play calls that let both Cade and Ivey thrive, it's that simple. Nothing Monty has done in Detroit has shown that he's capable of that. This idea that we need to have Cade and a bunch of guys who just stand around waiting to shoot threes or dunk while Cade plays poor man's Luka is a very short sighted one, IMO.

Other teams manage to feature multiple guys that play with the ball in their hands, there is nothing Cade has shown that says he should be the only one on this team that ever touches the ball beyond just to shoot or dunk it. That's not a winning formula.

I think a onball player can work next to Cade fine. Just not Jaden Ivey a on ball combo who cant 3 or D ands best trait is slashing. This archetype is better suited as a 6thman.

Like if we could get old CP3 the version who went to the Suns not the washed one on the Warriors that would work perfect next to Cade. Booker and the Suns had a huge level up when they did that. Tons of players would work great next to Cade just Jaden Ivey doesnt.

[BDM22]

I'd also say that trying to draw comparison between Ivey to Killian is pretty out there.

We need a coach that can find a balance in play calls that let both Cade and Ivey thrive, it's that simple. Nothing Monty has done in Detroit has shown that he's capable of that. This idea that we need to have Cade and a bunch of guys who just stand around waiting to shoot threes or dunk while Cade plays poor man's Luka is a very short sighted one, IMO.

Other teams manage to feature multiple guys that play with the ball in their hands, there is nothing Cade has shown that says he should be the only one on this team that ever touches the ball beyond just to shoot or dunk it. That's not a winning formula.

I think a onball player can work next to Cade fine. Just not Jaden Ivey a on ball combo who cant 3 or D ands best trait is slashing. This archetype is better suited as a 6thman.

Like if we could get old CP3 the version who went to the Suns not the washed one on the Warriors that would work perfect next to Cade. Booker and the Suns had a huge level up when they did that. Tons of players would work great next to Cade just Jaden Ivey doesnt.

Yeah, so it sounds like since we are aware that we need another guard playmaker next to Cade, but they also have to be a great shooter and defender to make up for Cade there, it really means we need someone better than Cade next to Cade lol.

I just feel like if the window of player that works next to you is that narrow, it's not a great sign.

For me, any player on the roster would be open for trading in the right deal, but I'd also lean toward a change at coach in the meantime toward someone that we can at least see TRY to make Cade/Ivey work be it with the play calling or rotations. This was game 68 and we still got Monty going through the motions.

[DBC10]

I think a onball player can work next to Cade fine. Just not Jaden Ivey a on ball combo who cant 3 or D ands best trait is slashing. This archetype is better suited as a 6thman.

Like if we could get old CP3 the version who went to the Suns not the washed one on the Warriors that would work perfect next to Cade. Booker and the Suns had a huge level up when they did that. Tons of players would work great next to Cade just Jaden Ivey doesnt.

Yeah, so it sounds like since we are aware that we need another guard playmaker next to Cade, but they also have to be a great shooter and defender to make up for Cade there, it really means we need someone better than Cade next to Cade lol.

I just feel like if the window of player that works next to you is that narrow, it's not a great sign.

For me, any player on the roster would be open for trading in the right deal, but I'd also lean toward a change at coach in the meantime toward someone that we can at least see TRY to make Cade/Ivey work be it with the play calling or rotations. This was game 68 and we still got Monty going through the motions.

Correct, which again if we need another Cade or higher level player, then it just means that Cade may not be that guy to begin with. Symptoms vs actual cause

This discussion seems to track closely back when the debate was Drummond being our franchise guy. Lots of posters swore up and down that if Dre had this and this type of player (3&D, playmaker all 4 position) next to him, he'd be the next Shaq-ish. I mean at that point any low level all star would look like a superstar if we're that loaded and if he needs such perfect conditions to actually thrive...is he actually a franchise guy?

[MortSahlfan]

I just hope Duren isn't Drummond. We spent that max on Dre and got nothing much in return. He was much better when he scored from offensive rebounds and alley-oops. Not a focal point or a guy who kept sashaying (and turning it over). Give it to a guard and get position!

[Snakebites]

I just hope Duren isn't Drummond. We spent that max on Dre and got nothing much in return. He was much better when he scored from offensive rebounds and alley-oops. Not a focal point or a guy who kept sashaying (and turning it over). Give it to a guard and get position!

He already looks like a better offensive player than Drummond.

Defense? We’ll see.

[Snakebites]

Gosh, I remember when the Pistons gave away Chauncey, Dice, etc., to make cap room, and then spending 100 million on BG and CV who did nothing.

Pistons can't re-sign all their young players, and if Weaver waits, we'll get less or nothing... Trade and/or sign PROVEN players. This recycling needs to end, this constant kicking the can.

We also gave Rip a bloated new contract. We could have had cap space without the trade.

We chose Rip over Chauncey. It makes me vomit to this day.

[MortSahlfan]

Gosh, I remember when the Pistons gave away Chauncey, Dice, etc., to make cap room, and then spending 100 million on BG and CV who did nothing.

Pistons can't re-sign all their young players, and if Weaver waits, we'll get less or nothing... Trade and/or sign PROVEN players. This recycling needs to end, this constant kicking the can.

We also gave Rip a bloated new contract. We could have had cap space without the trade.

We chose Rip over Chauncey. It makes me vomit to this day.

Well, we still could have kept Chauncey, and not traded him for AI, and the cap space we used was on guys who did nothing on either end. Rip was a great player for us.

[BDM22]

Gosh, I remember when the Pistons gave away Chauncey, Dice, etc., to make cap room, and then spending 100 million on BG and CV who did nothing.

Pistons can't re-sign all their young players, and if Weaver waits, we'll get less or nothing... Trade and/or sign PROVEN players. This recycling needs to end, this constant kicking the can.

We also gave Rip a bloated new contract. We could have had cap space without the trade.

We chose Rip over Chauncey. It makes me vomit to this day.

I think trading Chauncey could be rationalized with the league being where it was. Boston and the Lebron Cavs were clearly better than us after we lost Ben. We got to the ECF a lot based on the rest of the east being weak below that.

The issue was targeting Iverson in that trade and not just trying to sell high on ALL of the vets for a mountain of future assets and young players in the way that this franchise has never done. We could have done the full rebuild in that very moment, but Joe D got lured in by washed up marquee names. What a waste.

Somehow we got the worst of both worlds. We sucked and didn't get any long term assets for the core championship players. Literally NOT ONE pick or young player for Chauncey, Rip, Tayshaun, Sheed, and Ben. We got washed Iverson and 31yo Jose Calderon in total for those players. I fail to believe that an expiring Iverson was all we could get for an all-NBA guard that was 32yo.