Black Monday (April 15th)

[whitehops]

the original black monday was in 1987 when the stock market dropped 22% in one day. the nfl has adopted the name and their black monday is known as the monday after the last games of the regular season where coaches usually get fired.

the last day of the regular season for the league is this coming sunday, so one week today could be our "black monday".

the question is simple: what do you think WILL happen (not what you want to happen) regarding monty and weaver?

[buzzkilloton]

Both stay and we max out T.Harris as our big move this offseason. Detroit Basketball!

[Moses ShamMoses]

Weaver honestly deserves to get fired based on performance, but will likely get one last chance to prove himself worthy of "restoring the Pistons". Gores talked about how we've positioned ourselves to really go after free agency with healthy books, yada yada yada, so if Weaver doesn't produce it's over for him.

[The Number 9]

If Williams is fired, I will be really really really surprised. I don't see Gores fire his overpayed coach after only one year.

I voted both stay even though I have more doubts about Weaver's future. I think he will be here for the free agency and could be fired after if things don't go well. But, as the roster he assembled is really bad, there's a chance he is out before.

[Billl]

Neither deserve to stay, but I don't see any sort of way that monte is fired. It's just too much cash on the line. And if gores wanted to can weaver, he would have done so before the deadline. That losing streak was the obvious time for a shakeup, but nothing really happened other than vets getting moved and killian getting cut.

[theBigLip]

Neither deserve to stay, but I don't see any sort of way that monte is fired. It's just too much cash on the line. And if gores wanted to can weaver, he would have done so before the deadline. That losing streak was the obvious time for a shakeup, but nothing really happened other than vets getting moved and killian getting cut.

Fontecchio isn’t nothing. Most all of the youngsters made significant progress. And as you mentioned we did get rid of Hayes.

[theBigLip]

Neither is getting fired.

Weaver is going to get to spend the cap space he created. Lots of trades/free agent dealings this summer. Looking forward to Fontecchio and Grimes helping our shooting, and that’s even before we get a couple of significant additions. It’s going to be a much better team next season. We won’t even have threads like this next year.

[vege]

100% of people think both will stay (including myself). I think that says enough. I might take next season off, or might be gone for good, we'll see.

[DBC10]

This team will continue being a mess if both are still here. Actually, it'll may be continue being a mess even afterwards due to Gores' ability to attract parasites to work for him

[buzzkilloton]

LOL 8/8 so far. Sharpest pistons talk spot on the internet no question.

[buzzkilloton]

This team will continue being a mess if both are still here. Actually, it'll may be continue being a mess even afterwards due to Gores' ability to attract parasites to work for him

At least if we get rid of Troy now the job is much more attractive to a new hire. We have Cade a few decent young players and cap space. If we let Troy blow all our cap space and it doesnt work out no decent GM is coming. We will get stuck with another Troy Weaver type GM.

[theBigLip]

This team will continue being a mess if both are still here. Actually, it'll may be continue being a mess even afterwards due to Gores' ability to attract parasites to work for him

At least if we get rid of Troy now the job is much more attractive to a new hire. We have Cade a few decent young players and cap space. If we let Troy blow all our cap space and it doesnt work out no decent GM is coming. We will get stuck with another Troy Weaver type GM.

It’s ironic that Weaver’s work has set things up to be attractive to other GMs, but at the same time this is seen as a failure to some fans. Which one is it?

I’m clearly in the camp that this might actually work. We do have that fore-mentioned cap space and a few decent young players.

Weaver will be here for another season. So do you want him to spend the cap or not? Seems like if he spends it, he’s “blowing” it. Yet we need more players to build around Cade. What exactly is it that you want him to do?

[zeebneeb]

BTW, if my research is correct from a few weeks ago, if Weaver is the GM to start the season, he will be the first GM to survive this many seasons of utter failure.

My memory is a touch fuzzy, and ill go through it again later, but it will be unprecedented if he is the GM on opening night.

[flow]

This team will continue being a mess if both are still here. Actually, it'll may be continue being a mess even afterwards due to Gores' ability to attract parasites to work for him

At least if we get rid of Troy now the job is much more attractive to a new hire. We have Cade a few decent young players and cap space. If we let Troy blow all our cap space and it doesnt work out no decent GM is coming. We will get stuck with another Troy Weaver type GM.

It’s ironic that Weaver’s work has set things up to be attractive to other GMs, but at the same time this is seen as a failure to some fans. Which one is it?

I’m clearly in the camp that this might actually work. We do have that fore-mentioned cap space and a few decent young players.

Weaver will be here for another season. So do you want him to spend the cap or not? Seems like if he spends it, he’s “blowing” it. Yet we need more players to build around Cade. What exactly is it that you want him to do?

He's been a complete disaster. You act as though clearing cap space was his sole plan from the moment he was hired. Like with Hinkie. It was not. If that had been the case, he'd have had his space long ago and we'd be on the upswing. He would not have signed Grant, would not have signed Plumlee, would not have signed Olynyk, would not have traded for Bagley, would not have extended Bagley, would not have signed Bojan, would not have extended Bojan, would not have kept Bojan, would not have traded for Wiseman....

This guy has been flying by the seat of his pants from day one. He finds himself in the position he's in today, with the worst team in NBA History after 4 years on the job, not because it was his plan, but because he sucks at his job. The fact that he has cap space is at best a silver lining to the disaster. Certainly not an accomplishment.

.

[buzzkilloton]

This team will continue being a mess if both are still here. Actually, it'll may be continue being a mess even afterwards due to Gores' ability to attract parasites to work for him

At least if we get rid of Troy now the job is much more attractive to a new hire. We have Cade a few decent young players and cap space. If we let Troy blow all our cap space and it doesnt work out no decent GM is coming. We will get stuck with another Troy Weaver type GM.

It’s ironic that Weaver’s work has set things up to be attractive to other GMs, but at the same time this is seen as a failure to some fans. Which one is it?

I’m clearly in the camp that this might actually work. We do have that fore-mentioned cap space and a few decent young players.

Weaver will be here for another season. So do you want him to spend the cap or not? Seems like if he spends it, he’s “blowing” it. Yet we need more players to build around Cade. What exactly is it that you want him to do?

I said "more attractive" I didnt say we were attractive. If he messes it up were getting nobody at all.

I dont trust Troy spending the cap would much prefer a new GM. I want someone to come in and trade our pick+Ivey and spend the cap on the right guys and turn this around for next season. I dont think Troy has that in him.

[NYPiston]

Neither deserve to stay, but I don't see any sort of way that monte is fired. It's just too much cash on the line. And if gores wanted to can weaver, he would have done so before the deadline. That losing streak was the obvious time for a shakeup, but nothing really happened other than vets getting moved and killian getting cut.

Fontecchio isn’t nothing. Most all of the youngsters made significant progress. And as you mentioned we did get rid of Hayes.

Who?

Cade, who is already good anyway, made some progression at least in his shooting numbers even though the defense continues to be poor. Other than that, it's a bunch of young guys that have flatlined or regressed. Significant progress? Honestly dude, where in the world are you seeing this? Ausar was good to start the season then fell off, Ivey had a good stretch after starting the season poorly then went back to being poor, Duren continues to make dumb decisions on the regular, it's like Drummond with some nice raw numbers but when you watch him play you see a guy that is a bad starting NBA player, Sasser started off well and has been awful since. Where's the progress? Stewart shooting the 3 better so ok, there's that but there isn't much else there in terms of young player development.

Killian getting cut, at least a year too late, shouldn't be counted as a credit to Weaver. I know you tend to be optimistic but lets be real here, it's been a disaster for Weaver.
Fontecchio was a very nice move. That's it.

[theBigLip]

Neither deserve to stay, but I don't see any sort of way that monte is fired. It's just too much cash on the line. And if gores wanted to can weaver, he would have done so before the deadline. That losing streak was the obvious time for a shakeup, but nothing really happened other than vets getting moved and killian getting cut.

Fontecchio isn’t nothing. Most all of the youngsters made significant progress. And as you mentioned we did get rid of Hayes.

Who?

Cade, who is already good anyway, made some progression at least in his shooting numbers even though the defense continues to be poor. Other than that, it's a bunch of young guys that have flatlined or regressed. Significant progress? Honestly dude, where in the world are you seeing this? Ausar was good to start the season then fell off, Ivey had a good stretch after starting the season poorly then went back to being poor, Duren continues to make dumb decisions on the regular, it's like Drummond with some nice raw numbers but when you watch him play you see a guy that is a bad starting NBA player, Sasser started off well and has been awful since. Where's the progress? Stewart shooting the 3 better so ok, there's that but there isn't much else there in terms of young player development.

Killian getting cut, at least a year too late, shouldn't be counted as a credit to Weaver. I know you tend to be optimistic but lets be real here, it's been a disaster for Weaver.
Fontecchio was a very nice move. That's it.

Cade - 36 percent stroke from 3-point range—40 percent since the All-Star break
Duren - beast on offense, cleans up the glass. How can you not see that? Yes his D needs to improve but he hasn’t “regressed” And FFS, he’s 20 years old, it’s not like he’s peaked.
Wiseman - I’ve seen so many quotes that he doesn’t belong even in the G-league, yet he has gotten better all season long. Now that Bagley is gone, he’s gotten more minutes and he’s improved almost every aspect of his game. Still just see him as a backup big, but the improvement is evident.
Stewart - better defender, improved his 3pt shooting

These are just easy observations. And not all progress is going to immediately show up in wins, especially considering all of our injuries hurt a lot of team development.

[Crymson]

Fontecchio isn’t nothing. Most all of the youngsters made significant progress. And as you mentioned we did get rid of Hayes.

How so?

• Cade has made the progress you'd expect on offense -- it took some time, in part because Monty was running him early in the season in extremely predictable PnR sets into no spacing -- but gives a whole lot of it back on defense; he's a lot worse as a defender than he was in year one and the short time he played last season.
• Ivey is worse than he was in the second half of last season and has been constantly jerked around by Monty for no good reason whatsoever in a way that's very, very bad to do to a young player, and he's concluding this season in a protracted slump.
• Duren has progressed on offense, but that was the case already at the start of the season; he's made only marginal improvements on defense, and that's when he's trying, as he's had enormous effort problems on defense that were not present at all last season. Not an issue under Casey, but most certainly an issue under Monty.
• Stewart's shot has improved and that's all (though that's not surprising; he's inherently got limited room for improvement).
• Sasser has had a blah and extremely inconsistent season, one in which Monty gave him a consistent role only in late January after constantly pushing Killian Hayes ahead of him, and he's ending it in a major slump.
• Ausar got short shrift on offense, as Monty made the beyond-dumbfounding decision to anchor him -- despite being the league's worst perimeter shooter -- to the corner for much of the season, thereby setting him up to fail and not allowing him much involvement in the offense. He got more run late in his season, but far too much of it passed with Monty not bothering to coach him. He did not improve much, if at all, as a scorer.
• Wiseman is Wiseman; we've seen his level of effort improve in the late stages of the season, but only in the late stages of the season, and he's still bad anyway.
• Bagley still sucks (albeit considerably less than Wiseman), but he's done a lot better with the Wizards than he did under Monty (who doghoused him for no reason).

I'd argue that this year has been extremely disappointing on the development end, possibly in large part because Monty has been absolutely brutal in his handling of the youth. He's coached this season in a way that has made no sense for either winning or development. That's quite a feat.

Edit: I see your previous response now. I'll cover the bits of it I haven't addressed.

Duren - beast on offense, cleans up the glass. How can you not see that? Yes his D needs to improve but he hasn’t “regressed” And FFS, he’s 20 years old, it’s not like he’s peaked.

His defense has absolutely regressed, in largest part because his defensive work ethic has evaporated. Even when he's trying, his processing and decision making has not shown substantive improvement over last season.

Wiseman - I’ve seen so many quotes that he doesn’t belong even in the G-league, yet he has gotten better all season long. Now that Bagley is gone, he’s gotten more minutes and he’s improved almost every aspect of his game. Still just see him as a backup big, but the improvement is evident.

He could now do well in the G-League. He still sucks as an NBA player. He works harder, but his ability to process the game is still dreadful.

Stewart - better defender, improved his 3pt shooting

I don't see the better defender. Stewart has been a strong defender at center since he was a rookie. He's nowhere near so strong at power forward. That hasn't changed, and -- because it's a function of his poor mobility -- it's unlikely to change.

[NYPiston]

Cade - 36 percent stroke from 3-point range—40 percent since the All-Star break
Duren - beast on offense, cleans up the glass. How can you not see that? Yes his D needs to improve but he hasn’t “regressed” And FFS, he’s 20 years old, it’s not like he’s peaked.
Wiseman - I’ve seen so many quotes that he doesn’t belong even in the G-league, yet he has gotten better all season long. Now that Bagley is gone, he’s gotten more minutes and he’s improved almost every aspect of his game. Still just see him as a backup big, but the improvement is evident.
Stewart - better defender, improved his 3pt shooting

These are just easy observations. And not all progress is going to immediately show up in wins, especially considering all of our injuries hurt a lot of team development.

Cade has improved but I think that was inevitable because he's too good not to and was finally healthy, at least for a time until of course.... he got injured again. Injuries are a bigger concern than his game going forward. Hopefully he puts it behind him for good starting next season but he's been ravaged with them throughout his career thus far.

I didn't say that Duren peaked, I'm saying that he hasn't progressed much thus far. He gobbles up a lot of rebounds and is a physical beast but in terms of overall basketball, he's still a well below average NBA starter. Granted, it's a bad situation but he has a lot of bad in his game that needs to be weeded out. I can't help but to get Drummond vibes when I watch him, same low IQ plays and inconsistent effort issues. He's young so there's still plenty of time for him to learn and grow but it's been an immense struggle for him especially defensively.

Wiseman is the new Killian. Had a nice stretch of games but, objectively, he's still a bad player. even if he's a bit improved from being like league worst rotation player. I don't think Wiseman should be a feather in the cap for the Pistons. Of course, part of that is him being thrust into a bigger role because of GM incompetence and injury but I don't think he's a case of somebody that has seen major progression.

Stewart has improved his 3 point shooting so that's a definite sign of progression. He was always solid defensively but the 3 pointer was an important add to his game.

I don't know man, I'm not trying to be difficult for the sake of being difficult. I think the results are pretty definitive of a team that hasn't shown much if any progress and that filters down to the individuals.
In fairness, it's hard to evaluate these guys because they aren't getting proper coaching, the ridiculous amount of injuries and the general low quality of the supporting cast but the reality is the reality and this has been a wasted season essentially.

[theBigLip]

I guess we watch different games

I’m pretty much done w trying to talk about this past season. The draft is, at least in the short term, a non issue. It basically comes down to who we can add during free agency/summer trade market.