Black Monday (April 15th)

[whitehops]

as much as i want weaver gone i voted both stay because i think if weaver was going to be fired they would've done it already unless they really didn't like their options for an interim GM.

[Snakebites]

Trying to be optimistic, but even then I could only manage to vote for Troy to go.

It’s probably both.

[Cowology]

I can't imagine Gores eating the Monty contract. Pride. Greed. Stubbornness. Take your pick I guess, no matter what you call it that is a tough pill to swallow.

And I'd assume that Weaver has previously laid out his long term plans for Gores and presumably we've had some buy-in. We were expecting to be more competitive this year, but I'm not sure how much that really impacts anything in terms of team construction. It get's us a better draft pick. *shrug* But I'm guessing Weaver is still able to execute the FA plan he's laid out and been planning for years.

No change.

[Canadafan]

This team will continue being a mess if both are still here. Actually, it'll may be continue being a mess even afterwards due to Gores' ability to attract parasites to work for him

At least if we get rid of Troy now the job is much more attractive to a new hire. We have Cade a few decent young players and cap space. If we let Troy blow all our cap space and it doesnt work out no decent GM is coming. We will get stuck with another Troy Weaver type GM.

It’s ironic that Weaver’s work has set things up to be attractive to other GMs, but at the same time this is seen as a failure to some fans. Which one is it?

I’m clearly in the camp that this might actually work. We do have that fore-mentioned cap space and a few decent young players.

Weaver will be here for another season. So do you want him to spend the cap or not? Seems like if he spends it, he’s “blowing” it. Yet we need more players to build around Cade. What exactly is it that you want him to do?

Our guy Weaver about to trade for 2 starters with our cap and some of our "assets" and we gonna be a playoff team next year! Me and you Lip, ill see you next May at Little Caesars Arena for some fun playoff ball. Vege, I'll buy u a drink too

[SuperBad]

I had all this optimism coming into the season, then about two weeks before the season started, I really looked at the roster with honesty and not hope. We had two guys that ranked imo in the top 15 for there position, Cade and a stretch Duran that’s it. The rest of our roster were big swings and fringe rotation players on good teams. We need 7-8 guys that are rotation players around the league, and at least 5 that could compete for a rotation spot on a good team.
Now all that being said, I’ve always been under the impression we were building almost 100% through he draft, that was weavers plan to do as long as he could, free agency doesnt work in Detroit very well. I thought Monty was a bad coach in Phoenix, he’s proved to be worse here,he’s better with veterans, but still bad. I think weaver is actually at least an average Gm, that’s had no luck, and started at 0, which really never happens. I’m firing Monty Williams and giving weaver his last year

[Cowology]

Sooo... if you are Gores and you are trying to decide what to do with Weaver you have a few options. You could fire him before the draft & FA, after or somewhere in the middle. What happens if you go in thinking "I wanna see what he's going to do here" and then he comes to you with some bull? Do you just fire him on the spot? Overrule him (again) and do what you want? Then fire him later? This all sounds terrible, but it's kinda like the train crash you can't look away from.

[SuperBad]

I think they bring in a new front office president, then he fires Monty, gives Weaver a set goal for the season or he’s out with just a tad bit of gray area like Cade getting hurt for the season. But otherwise he’d have to meet the mark. Maybe 32 wins and keeping the roster average age under 25 I’d be content, we’d still be young, and close and rising. I guess.

[theBigLip]

At least if we get rid of Troy now the job is much more attractive to a new hire. We have Cade a few decent young players and cap space. If we let Troy blow all our cap space and it doesnt work out no decent GM is coming. We will get stuck with another Troy Weaver type GM.

It’s ironic that Weaver’s work has set things up to be attractive to other GMs, but at the same time this is seen as a failure to some fans. Which one is it?

I’m clearly in the camp that this might actually work. We do have that fore-mentioned cap space and a few decent young players.

Weaver will be here for another season. So do you want him to spend the cap or not? Seems like if he spends it, he’s “blowing” it. Yet we need more players to build around Cade. What exactly is it that you want him to do?

Our guy Weaver about to trade for 2 starters with our cap and some of our "assets" and we gonna be a playoff team next year! Me and you Lip, ill see you next May at Little Caesars Arena for some fun playoff ball. Vege, I'll buy u a drink too

I’m down! This is going to be a Detroit Lions level of turnaround! Can’t wait to see what our roster is going to be.

[Uncle Mxy]

What happens to black people on Monday?

<thinks about the optics of firing both GM and coach>

[Invictus88]

This team will continue being a mess if both are still here. Actually, it'll may be continue being a mess even afterwards due to Gores' ability to attract parasites to work for him

At least if we get rid of Troy now the job is much more attractive to a new hire. We have Cade a few decent young players and cap space. If we let Troy blow all our cap space and it doesnt work out no decent GM is coming. We will get stuck with another Troy Weaver type GM.

It’s ironic that Weaver’s work has set things up to be attractive to other GMs, but at the same time this is seen as a failure to some fans. Which one is it?

I’m clearly in the camp that this might actually work. We do have that fore-mentioned cap space and a few decent young players.

Weaver will be here for another season. So do you want him to spend the cap or not? Seems like if he spends it, he’s “blowing” it. Yet we need more players to build around Cade. What exactly is it that you want him to do?

So there's 2 missing pieces that you are overlooking.

1. Blowing it up and going with a youth movement is not a bad direction to take. But a youth movement isn't just acquiring young players. A youth movement is taking those players and fostering growth. Cade is the only player progressing; and it's likely being done despite road blocks being thrown in front of him by management and coaching. Ivey, Duren and Thompson have regressed this year. It's not even debatable at this point.

2. Cap is only useful if you spend it productively. This year's crop of free agents doesn't instill a high confidence that will occur. A history of bad signings and acquisitions in the form of Bagley, Wiseman and Stew further predict it's more likely we will mismanage our ample cap space.

Everyone is in agreement that we have to continue to develop our youth and bring in substantial help with our cap space. But everyone but a select few have rightfully lost confidence that Weaver is the one who can do a good job of it.


And no. Signing Tobias Harris to a gaudy 2 year deal is not doing a good job.
And no. You can't complain that he's the only one left because Weaver chose to go this route to manage over the years. You don't get a cookie for diligently saving up all of your pennies only to waste it on magic beans at the end

[JennetteMcCurdy]

If anyone would be happy with Weaver handing out long term contracts so we can vault to 30 wins, all I can say is that the bar has successfully been lowered by leadership.

Get me a new GM who knows something about asset management, not the current guy.

[theBigLip]

At least if we get rid of Troy now the job is much more attractive to a new hire. We have Cade a few decent young players and cap space. If we let Troy blow all our cap space and it doesnt work out no decent GM is coming. We will get stuck with another Troy Weaver type GM.

It’s ironic that Weaver’s work has set things up to be attractive to other GMs, but at the same time this is seen as a failure to some fans. Which one is it?

I’m clearly in the camp that this might actually work. We do have that fore-mentioned cap space and a few decent young players.

Weaver will be here for another season. So do you want him to spend the cap or not? Seems like if he spends it, he’s “blowing” it. Yet we need more players to build around Cade. What exactly is it that you want him to do?

So there's 2 missing pieces that you are overlooking.

1. Blowing it up and going with a youth movement is not a bad direction to take. But a youth movement isn't just acquiring young players. A youth movement is taking those players and fostering growth. Cade is the only player progressing; and it's likely being done despite road blocks being thrown in front of him by management and coaching. Ivey, Duren and Thompson have regressed this year. It's not even debatable at this point.

2. Cap is only useful if you spend it productively. This year's crop of free agents doesn't instill a high confidence that will occur. A history of bad signings and acquisitions in the form of Bagley, Wiseman and Stew further predict it's more likely we will mismanage our ample cap space.

Everyone is in agreement that we have to continue to develop our youth and bring in substantial help with our cap space. But everyone but a select few have rightfully lost confidence that Weaver is the one who can do a good job of it.


And no. Signing Tobias Harris to a gaudy 2 year deal is not doing a good job.
And no. You can't complain that he's the only one left because Weaver chose to go this route to manage over the years. You don't get a cookie for diligently saving up all of your pennies only to waste it on magic beans at the end

There’s a lot that’s debatable but I doubt we are going to change each other’s minds

1. I don’t see the regression in our rookies. I see unrealistic expectations.

2.a. There will never be a lot of quality free agents anymore. For the most part we will be making trades.

b. Bagley, Wiseman and Stewart? The first two were home run swings. Wiseman has progressed, Bagley is gone. And both were/are backup centers. Not a big deal. And Stewart was a solid signing. He does more in the locker room in addition to his play that he doesn’t get credit for. And there was supposed interest in him at the deadline so the contract must be reasonable.

c. I agree it’s a failure if we spend all our money on Harris. Or LaVine. And it seems most of this board is already trashing Weaver for moves HE HASN’T EVEN MADE! He’s got significant cap space, he’s not rolling it over like last year. If we get two or three new quality players that can shoot, Fontecchio and Grimes come back healthy, this is going to be a huge turnaround.

Neither of us are right or wrong, it’s just opinions at this point. I’m sure we’re both looking forward to this summer’s moves, just coming at it from a different angle. We’ll see who’s right next season.

[Mr Peanut]

Unfortunately I can't see either going. I'd love for Gores to fire someone however, like Arn Tellem. Won't happen though.

[Sort]

I'm not inside Gores head, and it's not like he speaks to the media much, and when he does, it's not exactly coherent. That aside, I refuse to imagine a world where someone like Weaver can that epically fail and have no accountability. Monty can and should get blame, but he's got a much longer contract and track record. Better to let the new GM make decisions.

Pistons need a hard reset under new leadership. It's not hard to see.

[Snakebites]

I'm not inside Gores head, and it's not like he speaks to the media much, and when he does, it's not exactly coherent. That aside, I refuse to imagine a world where someone like Weaver can that epically fail and have no accountability. Monty can and should get blame, but he's got a much longer contract and track record. Better to let the new GM make decisions.

Pistons need a hard reset under new leadership. It's not hard to see.

Gores views this as a financial investment.

And the primary things driving the value of an NBA team are not related to wins and losses.

Which is not to say he doesn’t care at all, but it’s not top of mind.

[Invictus88]

It’s ironic that Weaver’s work has set things up to be attractive to other GMs, but at the same time this is seen as a failure to some fans. Which one is it?

I’m clearly in the camp that this might actually work. We do have that fore-mentioned cap space and a few decent young players.

Weaver will be here for another season. So do you want him to spend the cap or not? Seems like if he spends it, he’s “blowing” it. Yet we need more players to build around Cade. What exactly is it that you want him to do?

So there's 2 missing pieces that you are overlooking.

1. Blowing it up and going with a youth movement is not a bad direction to take. But a youth movement isn't just acquiring young players. A youth movement is taking those players and fostering growth. Cade is the only player progressing; and it's likely being done despite road blocks being thrown in front of him by management and coaching. Ivey, Duren and Thompson have regressed this year. It's not even debatable at this point.

2. Cap is only useful if you spend it productively. This year's crop of free agents doesn't instill a high confidence that will occur. A history of bad signings and acquisitions in the form of Bagley, Wiseman and Stew further predict it's more likely we will mismanage our ample cap space.

Everyone is in agreement that we have to continue to develop our youth and bring in substantial help with our cap space. But everyone but a select few have rightfully lost confidence that Weaver is the one who can do a good job of it.


And no. Signing Tobias Harris to a gaudy 2 year deal is not doing a good job.
And no. You can't complain that he's the only one left because Weaver chose to go this route to manage over the years. You don't get a cookie for diligently saving up all of your pennies only to waste it on magic beans at the end

There’s a lot that’s debatable but I doubt we are going to change each other’s minds

1. I don’t see the regression in our rookies. I see unrealistic expectations.

2.a. There will never be a lot of quality free agents anymore. For the most part we will be making trades.

b. Bagley, Wiseman and Stewart? The first two were home run swings. Wiseman has progressed, Bagley is gone. And both were/are backup centers. Not a big deal. And Stewart was a solid signing. He does more in the locker room in addition to his play that he doesn’t get credit for. And there was supposed interest in him at the deadline so the contract must be reasonable.

c. I agree it’s a failure if we spend all our money on Harris. Or LaVine. And it seems most of this board is already trashing Weaver for moves HE HASN’T EVEN MADE! He’s got significant cap space, he’s not rolling it over like last year. If we get two or three new quality players that can shoot, Fontecchio and Grimes come back healthy, this is going to be a huge turnaround.

Neither of us are right or wrong, it’s just opinions at this point. I’m sure we’re both looking forward to this summer’s moves, just coming at it from a different angle. We’ll see who’s right next season.

1. Jaden Ivey: Counting numbers say he's about on par with last year. Given that he was playing well earlier in the year and has been playing awful for the last several weeks I'd call that a regression.
Jalen Duren: Slightly more minutes; slightly higher scoring and rebounds. His defense has been terrible all year. Nobody would ever have conceived trading him last year. They do now. Regression.
Ausar played great for the first few weeks when he was getting minutes. Then he was benched and has been getting yanked around ever since. His aggression has been mostly absent and he rarely affected games like he did before. Regression.

How is expecting even a modest amount of improvement from 3 of our supposedly 4 core players an unrealistic expectation?

2a. It's been Weaver's strategy all along to amass a large sum of cap space. Whether it's a trade or FA signing is immaterial. So sure.

2b. Come on.
Bagley was resigning a player that we had already kicked the tires on for at least 3 million more than he was worth per season. He was not a home run swing. We ended up giving up value to offload the guy.
Wiseman was a home run swing, sure. But then instead of cutting our losses when it was clear he wasn't in our future (which would have allowed Stewart to finally play at a position he is good at) we play him *more*. And sure. For a small number of games he played decent after being horrible. And now he is back to playing horrible again.
Stewart: You do not pay a guy a starter's salary because he is good for the locker room (and since when is punching guys on the way to games good for the locker room). You pay the vet minimum for that. See Taj Gibson. And he's a great backup center who instead is being given Fontecchio's minutes at the 4; so he can pass up open 3pt shots while the defense clogs the lane for the other 4.

2c: Expectations for future moves are based on the performance of prior ones. How is this a hard concept to grasp? He has done a poor job of utilizing assets so far. It's not debatable even. So yeah. It's not a stretch that people would think he would do poorly once again.

I don't want to be right. I would take zero enjoyment if Weaver stayed and did as expected.

My goodness Ausar needs to find a 3pt shot this offseason. And Weaver needs to get his head out of his posterior and start Fontecchio where he belongs. And I said Weaver instead of Monty because it's too hard to fathom our coach being that stupid unless he was being forced by Weaver to save face by not benching a 15 million dollar player. If that's not it then Monty should be fired.
Straight up.

[tradez401]

sadly both will get the opportunity to turn this disaster of a season around next year.

[theBigLip]

I'm not inside Gores head, and it's not like he speaks to the media much, and when he does, it's not exactly coherent. That aside, I refuse to imagine a world where someone like Weaver can that epically fail and have no accountability. Monty can and should get blame, but he's got a much longer contract and track record. Better to let the new GM make decisions.

Pistons need a hard reset under new leadership. It's not hard to see.

Gores views this as a financial investment.

And the primary things driving the value of an NBA team are not related to wins and losses.

Which is not to say he doesn’t care at all, but it’s not top of mind.

Good point. He’s done well on franchise value, which he sort of rides the tide of the entire league. Net income is still important, don’t know about those details, but probably doing well with that as well.

[Snakebites]

I'm not inside Gores head, and it's not like he speaks to the media much, and when he does, it's not exactly coherent. That aside, I refuse to imagine a world where someone like Weaver can that epically fail and have no accountability. Monty can and should get blame, but he's got a much longer contract and track record. Better to let the new GM make decisions.

Pistons need a hard reset under new leadership. It's not hard to see.

Gores views this as a financial investment.

And the primary things driving the value of an NBA team are not related to wins and losses.

Which is not to say he doesn’t care at all, but it’s not top of mind.

Good point. He’s done well on franchise value, which he sort of rides the tide of the entire league. Net income is still important, don’t know about those details, but probably doing well with that as well.

For sure. He’d definitely LIKE the team to win more games, which would lead to more income and potentially playoff revenue. Those things matter too.

But they likely aren’t WHY he bought the team. He’s in a position to make a tidy profit whenever he decides to cut ties. He picked a pretty good time to buy an NBA franchise.

[theBigLip]

Gores views this as a financial investment.

And the primary things driving the value of an NBA team are not related to wins and losses.

Which is not to say he doesn’t care at all, but it’s not top of mind.

Good point. He’s done well on franchise value, which he sort of rides the tide of the entire league. Net income is still important, don’t know about those details, but probably doing well with that as well.

For sure. He’d definitely LIKE the team to win more games, which would lead to more income and potentially playoff revenue. Those things matter too.

But they likely aren’t WHY he bought the team. He’s in a position to make a tidy profit whenever he decides to cut ties. He picked a pretty good time to buy an NBA franchise.

Real good timing:

But even if the Pistons continue to misfire their way to NBA ignominy, there’s another bright spot for the owner. Gores purchased the Pistons in 2011 for $325 million. The franchise is now worth $3.1 billion, according to the latest
Sportico
NBA valuations. At an 854% return on investment, the Pistons are probably the billionaire’s best investment of all.