Game 44: Sixers @ Warriors Game Thread

[whatisacenter]

For the record 18-2 without Klay, then Klay re-inserted into the starting lineup and the season spiraled down from there.

spiraled down into a 4th title

This is why I dislike the arguments that when someone wins, every single action is correct. And when they lose, every single action is wrong. Kerr could have absolutely gotten that result without tanking the entire team for 2 months just to feed Klay's Mount Olympus sized ego. Kerr started losing his locker since that season, Steph was just smart enough to add a bandaid to nuclear level thread to hold it down for the short term. Steph was the one that suggested he come from the bench then.

A lot of these young guys have been watching Klay make thousands of mistakes in the last 2 1/2 years as they get pulled when they make 1-2. Who would respect a coach that has that level of double standard or hypocrisy?

The sentiment around here in a nutshell - hey hey, ho ho, Klay and Kerr have got to go!

[Impuniti]

spiraled down into a 4th title

This is why I dislike the arguments that when someone wins, every single action is correct. And when they lose, every single action is wrong. Kerr could have absolutely gotten that result without tanking the entire team for 2 months just to feed Klay's Mount Olympus sized ego. Kerr started losing his locker since that season, Steph was just smart enough to add a bandaid to nuclear level thread to hold it down for the short term. Steph was the one that suggested he come from the bench then.

A lot of these young guys have been watching Klay make thousands of mistakes in the last 2 1/2 years as they get pulled when they make 1-2. Who would respect a coach that has that level of double standard or hypocrisy?

The sentiment around here in a nutshell - hey hey, ho ho, Klay and Kerr have got to go!

The sentiment is because Klay is playing awful basketball and kerr is doing a horrible job. But maybe you can explain to me how it's justified to start Looney and Saric together, the least athletic players vs the best combination of speed, shooting, and spacing in the Kings, or taking out guys that are hot and putting in vets who weren't playing well to close out games, or playing 3 to 4 guards.

The only reason Kerr still has a job is that on average in the last decade, he's been one of the best coaches in the league and won. His performances from this season would have gotten another coach fired a long time ago.

[Onus]

The deeper the dive, the more clear it becomes.. Klay has to go, since Kerr refuses to evaluate on a level playing field. Never forget that Kerr’s as much to blame for this as anyone.. all the online vitriol for Klay is because of him more than Klay

I mean Kerr deserves some blame, but more than Klay? Kerr has gotten Wiggins, Iguodala, CP3, Dray and Curry to come off the bench. So obviously he can communicate with big time players and get them to buy in for what's best for the team. Klay is the outlier in this situation. So yea Kerr not being able to get Klay to buy in, is partially on Kerr, but the majority has to be on Klay since Kerr has been able to do it with just about everyone else.

Kerr absolutely is more to blame. You ask first, and you tell later. It's the coaches job, his disgusting rotations and lineups have lost the Warriors a ton of games this season. Because he can't man up and do his job. How many games early in the season was Moody, JK or someone else lighting it up only for Klay and Wiggins were woeful to come and close.. and then lose that game?

If Klay doesn't buy in, he sees the bench. Or doesn't play at all.

I mean I agree but considering he's been able to do it with literally every other starter and Klay is the sole outlier... Hey if he can't coach Klay then Kerr or Klay should go. I'm fine with either.

[Onus]

The deeper the dive, the more clear it becomes.. Klay has to go, since Kerr refuses to evaluate on a level playing field. Never forget that Kerr’s as much to blame for this as anyone.. all the online vitriol for Klay is because of him more than Klay

I mean Kerr deserves some blame, but more than Klay? Kerr has gotten Wiggins, Iguodala, CP3, Dray and Curry to come off the bench. So obviously he can communicate with big time players and get them to buy in for what's best for the team. Klay is the outlier in this situation. So yea Kerr not being able to get Klay to buy in, is partially on Kerr, but the majority has to be on Klay since Kerr has been able to do it with just about everyone else.

Steph and dray need some blame too. I'm not sure they are open to bringing klay off the bench.

When they wanted loon to start, kerr obliged. If those 2 want klay off the bench, it might happen.

This is crazy that we want to blame everyone else around Klay but not Klay for the majority of it? When Klay himself is the issue.

[whatisacenter]

This is why I dislike the arguments that when someone wins, every single action is correct. And when they lose, every single action is wrong. Kerr could have absolutely gotten that result without tanking the entire team for 2 months just to feed Klay's Mount Olympus sized ego. Kerr started losing his locker since that season, Steph was just smart enough to add a bandaid to nuclear level thread to hold it down for the short term. Steph was the one that suggested he come from the bench then.

A lot of these young guys have been watching Klay make thousands of mistakes in the last 2 1/2 years as they get pulled when they make 1-2. Who would respect a coach that has that level of double standard or hypocrisy?

The sentiment around here in a nutshell - hey hey, ho ho, Klay and Kerr have got to go!

The sentiment is because Klay is playing awful basketball and kerr is doing a horrible job. But maybe you can explain to me how it's justified to start Looney and Saric together, the least athletic players vs the best combination of speed, shooting, and spacing in the Kings, or taking out guys that are hot and putting in vets who weren't playing well to close out games, or playing 3 to 4 guards.

The only reason Kerr still has a job is that on average in the last decade, he's been one of the best coaches in the league and won. His performances from this season would have gotten another coach fired a long time ago.

I'm not a fan of the offseason, the roster or the product on the court. It's just interesting to me how little loyalty there is and I am guilty as well when it comes to Draymond.

[Onus]

The sentiment around here in a nutshell - hey hey, ho ho, Klay and Kerr have got to go!

The sentiment is because Klay is playing awful basketball and kerr is doing a horrible job. But maybe you can explain to me how it's justified to start Looney and Saric together, the least athletic players vs the best combination of speed, shooting, and spacing in the Kings, or taking out guys that are hot and putting in vets who weren't playing well to close out games, or playing 3 to 4 guards.

The only reason Kerr still has a job is that on average in the last decade, he's been one of the best coaches in the league and won. His performances from this season would have gotten another coach fired a long time ago.

I'm not a fan of the offseason, the roster or the product on the court. It's just interesting to me how little loyalty there is and I am guilty as well when it comes to Draymond.

Loyalty is a 2 way street. Acting like a selfish entitled brat isn't really endearing especially when you're the cause of a lot of issues. If he had the self awareness to come off the bench and not try to be a max player (his camp constantly saying he's a max player, it coming out before the playoffs is absolutely wild), I think a lot of the vitriol would subside.

[CDM_Stats]

Klay was given a max contract despite 2 catastrophic injuries and has never taken a price break.. his loyalty dues have been paid out already. If he wants to be beloved by the fanbase then he should do what both Steph and Dray have done at some point in their W's careers: take less money, be willing to come off the bench.

But all of that should be considered through the lens of who Klay is as a player. Curry, Igudoala, Draymond.. guys who are unselfish to a fault. THAT was the culture of the team. Klay was a gunner and a talent who fortunately landed between them, just like Poole did, but Klay's timing was better

[billinder33]

Klay was given a max contract despite 2 catastrophic injuries and has never taken a price break.. his loyalty dues have been paid out already.

This is true.

If not for the 2022 title, the 3 prior, the surrounding talent, and the public perception of Lacob's endlessly deep pockets - that contract, simply evaluated based on Klay's on-court performance since the time of the signing, would have been considered one of the worst in the history of the NBA. Had any other team given him that contract, they would have been mercilessly derided for it the last 5 years.

Of course hindsight is always 20/20, and I don't fault Klay or Lacob for that contract. NFL running backs, even older ones, return from ACLs all the time and come back even better than they were before injury. At the time the contract was signed, no one saw the Achilles injury coming, which (combined with age) is probably the thing most responsible for Klay's performance degradation and general loss of mobility.

Bottom line, Klay is ~$180M richer (minus taxes and agent fees) thanks to that contract. I'm not going to feel sorry for Klay, regardless of what happens from here.

[Onus]

Klay was given a max contract despite 2 catastrophic injuries and has never taken a price break.. his loyalty dues have been paid out already.

This is true.

If not for the 2022 title, the 3 prior, the surrounding talent, and the public perception of Lacob's endlessly deep pockets - that contract, simply evaluated based on Klay's on-court performance since the time of the signing, would have been considered one of the worst in the history of the NBA. Had any other team given him that contract, they would have been mercilessly derided for it the last 5 years.

Of course hindsight is always 20/20, and I don't fault Klay or Lacob for that contract. NFL running backs, even older ones, return from ACLs all the time and come back even better than they were before injury. At the time the contract was signed, no one saw the Achilles injury coming, which (combined with age) is probably the thing most responsible for Klay's performance degradation and general loss of mobility.

Bottom line, Klay is ~$180M richer (minus taxes and agent fees) thanks to that contract. I'm not going to feel sorry for Klay, regardless of what happens from here.

Hollinger said Klay's signing at the date of the signing was one of the worst contracts in the league the moment it was signed. It was an all time bad contract the moment it was signed.

[GQ Hot Dog]

Klay was given a max contract despite 2 catastrophic injuries and has never taken a price break.. his loyalty dues have been paid out already.

This is true.

If not for the 2022 title, the 3 prior, the surrounding talent, and the public perception of Lacob's endlessly deep pockets - that contract, simply evaluated based on Klay's on-court performance since the time of the signing, would have been considered one of the worst in the history of the NBA. Had any other team given him that contract, they would have been mercilessly derided for it the last 5 years.

Of course hindsight is always 20/20, and I don't fault Klay or Lacob for that contract. NFL running backs, even older ones, return from ACLs all the time and come back even better than they were before injury. At the time the contract was signed, no one saw the Achilles injury coming, which (combined with age) is probably the thing most responsible for Klay's performance degradation and general loss of mobility.

Bottom line, Klay is ~$180M richer (minus taxes and agent fees) thanks to that contract. I'm not going to feel sorry for Klay, regardless of what happens from here.

Hollinger said Klay's signing at the date of the signing was one of the worst contracts in the league the moment it was signed. It was an all time bad contract the moment it was signed.

The hyperbole is laughable. Hollinger's personnel analysis has always been average at best which is why he's not with the Grizzlies anymore after a totally forgettable run as VP.

I respect the hell out of Lacob for giving Klay a full year of salary for past service. It was worth it after another All-Star season. The best season for TOs in Klay's career. Prior to tearing his ACL, Klay was playing the best ball of his career against the Raps and was threatening to carry the Warriors to a G7 without KD.

Signing Klay to a max deal was the right move for so many reasons. Off the top of my head, the Lavine deal was obviously worse than Klay's was, the day it was signed.

[Onus]

This is true.

If not for the 2022 title, the 3 prior, the surrounding talent, and the public perception of Lacob's endlessly deep pockets - that contract, simply evaluated based on Klay's on-court performance since the time of the signing, would have been considered one of the worst in the history of the NBA. Had any other team given him that contract, they would have been mercilessly derided for it the last 5 years.

Of course hindsight is always 20/20, and I don't fault Klay or Lacob for that contract. NFL running backs, even older ones, return from ACLs all the time and come back even better than they were before injury. At the time the contract was signed, no one saw the Achilles injury coming, which (combined with age) is probably the thing most responsible for Klay's performance degradation and general loss of mobility.

Bottom line, Klay is ~$180M richer (minus taxes and agent fees) thanks to that contract. I'm not going to feel sorry for Klay, regardless of what happens from here.

Hollinger said Klay's signing at the date of the signing was one of the worst contracts in the league the moment it was signed. It was an all time bad contract the moment it was signed.

The hyperbole is laughable. Hollinger's personnel analysis has always been average at best which is why he's not with the Grizzlies anymore after a totally forgettable run as VP.

I respect the hell out of Lacob for giving Klay a full year of salary for past service. It was worth it after another All-Star season. The best season for TOs in Klay's career. Prior to tearing his ACL, Klay was playing the best ball of his career against the Raps and was threatening to carry the Warriors to a G7 without KD.

Signing Klay to a max deal was the right move for so many reasons. Off the top of my head, the Lavine deal was obviously worse than Klay's was, the day it was signed.

So you agree it's one of the worst contracts comparing it to Lavine's

[vvoland]

This is true.

If not for the 2022 title, the 3 prior, the surrounding talent, and the public perception of Lacob's endlessly deep pockets - that contract, simply evaluated based on Klay's on-court performance since the time of the signing, would have been considered one of the worst in the history of the NBA. Had any other team given him that contract, they would have been mercilessly derided for it the last 5 years.

Of course hindsight is always 20/20, and I don't fault Klay or Lacob for that contract. NFL running backs, even older ones, return from ACLs all the time and come back even better than they were before injury. At the time the contract was signed, no one saw the Achilles injury coming, which (combined with age) is probably the thing most responsible for Klay's performance degradation and general loss of mobility.

Bottom line, Klay is ~$180M richer (minus taxes and agent fees) thanks to that contract. I'm not going to feel sorry for Klay, regardless of what happens from here.

Hollinger said Klay's signing at the date of the signing was one of the worst contracts in the league the moment it was signed. It was an all time bad contract the moment it was signed.

The hyperbole is laughable. Hollinger's personnel analysis has always been average at best which is why he's not with the Grizzlies anymore after a totally forgettable run as VP.

I respect the hell out of Lacob for giving Klay a full year of salary for past service. It was worth it after another All-Star season. The best season for TOs in Klay's career. Prior to tearing his ACL, Klay was playing the best ball of his career against the Raps and was threatening to carry the Warriors to a G7 without KD.

Signing Klay to a max deal was the right move for so many reasons. Off the top of my head, the Lavine deal was obviously worse the day it was than Klay's was.

As a standalone deal, it's much better than the the Mozgov, Lavine or Wall contracts. I don't know the kind of backlash, including from Curry and Dray, Lacob and Meyers would have gotten if they didn't give Klay the contract he had earned because Danny Green hit him from behind in the Finals and tore his acl. Not to mention there would have been plenty of teams looking to pay Klay that contract if he had been available.

Not so much after the Achilles, which he hurt because he was working hard to get back. That injury made him miss another 1.5 years, really derailed his career and made his contract worse than it looked when he signed. We still won a ring, in no small part to Klay's role, and that outweighs, by a landslide, his contract costs prior to or after that title run.

If we were a Klay contract away from signing a big name FA, maybe the conversation has merit, but that was never the case after Durant. The reputation around the league and possible future discount from Klay make that deal a fairly reasonable contract. It literally wouldn't impact the roster one bit if Klay made 15M this year instead of 43M. Just lacob's pockets.

[GQ Hot Dog]

Hollinger said Klay's signing at the date of the signing was one of the worst contracts in the league the moment it was signed. It was an all time bad contract the moment it was signed.

The hyperbole is laughable. Hollinger's personnel analysis has always been average at best which is why he's not with the Grizzlies anymore after a totally forgettable run as VP.

I respect the hell out of Lacob for giving Klay a full year of salary for past service. It was worth it after another All-Star season. The best season for TOs in Klay's career. Prior to tearing his ACL, Klay was playing the best ball of his career against the Raps and was threatening to carry the Warriors to a G7 without KD.

Signing Klay to a max deal was the right move for so many reasons. Off the top of my head, the Lavine deal was obviously worse than Klay's was, the day it was signed.

So you agree it's one of the worst contracts comparing it to Lavine's

That was just off the top of my head. If I sat down and did a careful accounting I could come up with many many more. I agree with the poster above 100%.

Klay, after a torn ACL, could have returned to All-Star play. It's revisionist and bankrupt logic to judge his post-torn ACL contract by the standards of his post-torn achilles play.

[Onus]

The hyperbole is laughable. Hollinger's personnel analysis has always been average at best which is why he's not with the Grizzlies anymore after a totally forgettable run as VP.

I respect the hell out of Lacob for giving Klay a full year of salary for past service. It was worth it after another All-Star season. The best season for TOs in Klay's career. Prior to tearing his ACL, Klay was playing the best ball of his career against the Raps and was threatening to carry the Warriors to a G7 without KD.

Signing Klay to a max deal was the right move for so many reasons. Off the top of my head, the Lavine deal was obviously worse than Klay's was, the day it was signed.

So you agree it's one of the worst contracts comparing it to Lavine's

That was just off the top of my head. If I sat down and did a careful accounting I could come up with many many more. I agree with the poster above 100%.

Klay, after a torn ACL, could have returned to All-Star play. It's revisionist and bankrupt logic to judge his post-torn ACL contract by the standards of his post-torn achilles play.

It's probably in the top 10% of bad contracts currently. Out of 450 players that means he's one of the top 45 worst contracts in the league.

I agree however that after the finals he was playing his best ball of his career and even then he's not a max contract player. A max contract player is a player that can get their own shot and makes others around you better, or at least makes an impact in other ways than just shooting. Klay was great in a few areas. Elite shooting, movement off of that shooting and poa defense. Outside of that though Klay has always been a limited player. You add in an acl tear it makes the contract even worse.

[vvoland]

So you agree it's one of the worst contracts comparing it to Lavine's

That was just off the top of my head. If I sat down and did a careful accounting I could come up with many many more. I agree with the poster above 100%.

Klay, after a torn ACL, could have returned to All-Star play. It's revisionist and bankrupt logic to judge his post-torn ACL contract by the standards of his post-torn achilles play.

It's probably in the top 10% of bad contracts currently. Out of 450 players that means he's one of the top 45 worst contracts in the league.

I agree however that after the finals he was playing his best ball of his career and even then he's not a max contract player. A max contract player is a player that can get their own shot and makes others around you better, or at least makes an impact in other ways than just shooting. Klay was great in a few areas. Elite shooting, movement off of that shooting and poa defense. Outside of that though Klay has always been a limited player. You add in an acl tear it makes the contract even worse.

You're talking about the 3 most necessary skills at the 2 spot for a team w. Steph Curry. Klay's movement is what allowed Loon and Dray to make plays and Wiggins and Curry to see single coverage and driving lanes.

I'm curious, what do you think happens to the roster if Klay takes a deal that's below market value, even an MLE level deal in the 18M range? We're still over the 2nd apron, still have no cap space, etc. If we paid him like 15M or lower, we'd be just under the 2nd apron and would be able to sign a buyout guy like lowry... i guess.

[Onus]

You're talking about the 3 most necessary skills at the 2 spot for a team w. Steph Curry. Klay's movement is what allowed Loon and Dray to make plays and Wiggins and Curry to see single coverage and driving lanes.

Is it though? because JP thrived as a 2 next to Steph with the same players and we were pretty elite. In the 2 games without Klay we've thrived with Moody and then Podz starting. It seems like we'd be fine with a lot of different options and different skillsets.

I'm curious, what do you think happens to the roster if Klay takes a deal that's below market value, even an MLE level deal in the 18M range? We're still over the 2nd apron, still have no cap space, etc. If we paid him like 15M or lower, we'd be just under the 2nd apron and would be able to sign a buyout guy like lowry... i guess.

what is market value?

We'd probably be just fine without him tbh. Like if he just retired after 2019. I think we'd be better in 2022-2024.

[CDM_Stats]

Klay isnt a problem just by being on the roster or whatever salary he demands. Hell the salary only matters to (sensible) fans because of its impact on the 2nd apron.. then again, some fans were deeply concerned about Wiggins getting paid while dealing with family matters last year, so who knows. I tend to let those psychos do their own thing

The problem is Klay's presence on the roster AND how Kerr decides to deploy him. Klay could absolutely re-sign here and it be fine... if Kerr adjusts to his current skill level and whats best for the team. Or if there was someone else making that call. But the Klay/Kerr combo is a fatal one, because here we are, over halfway through the season, and there have only been 4 games so far this season where he's played less than 25 minutes - the 2 he missed, and the 1 where he was ejected. The other game? 24 minutes against the Pelicans in the blowout 3 weeks ago

That's why I routinely say that this is as much Kerr's fault, if not more. His rigidity about Klay is turning the narrative about Klay into something ugly, and it could be easily prevented by running the team like a true meritocracy. But its clear at this stage he has no interest in doing that

[Onus]

That's why I routinely say that this is as much Kerr's fault, if not more. His rigidity about Klay is turning the narrative about Klay into something ugly, and it could be easily prevented by running the team like a true meritocracy. But its clear at this stage he has no interest in doing that

I get that it's partially on Kerr, since he's the coach and he determines playing time. But why is Klay the only one Kerr can't "coach"? Wiggins struggling got benched. Looney struggling got benched. Draymond becomes unhinged kept him on the bench when his suspension was over and then brought him off the bench. CP3 benched. JP benched. Iguodala benched. David Lee benched. Kerr is able to coach every other player but Klay. Kerr kind of has a long track record of benching other players when needed.

I was on the same boat as you and really wanted to blame Kerr, but when you think back on his coaching career, he's been able to get players to buy into coming off the bench. The lone exception has been Klay. I agree Kerr's usage and lineups to play certain players has been truly awful but I feel like that's a separate discussion since with regards to starting Kerr has been able to get almost everyone to come off the bench at some point in time outside of Klay.

[superunknown]

That's why I routinely say that this is as much Kerr's fault, if not more. His rigidity about Klay is turning the narrative about Klay into something ugly, and it could be easily prevented by running the team like a true meritocracy. But its clear at this stage he has no interest in doing that

I get that it's partially on Kerr, since he's the coach and he determines playing time. But why is Klay the only one Kerr can't "coach"? Wiggins struggling got benched. Looney struggling got benched. Draymond becomes unhinged kept him on the bench when his suspension was over and then brought him off the bench. CP3 benched. JP benched. Iguodala benched. David Lee benched. Kerr is able to coach every other player but Klay. Kerr kind of has a long track record of benching other players when needed.

I was on the same boat as you and really wanted to blame Kerr, but when you think back on his coaching career, he's been able to get players to buy into coming off the bench. The lone exception has been Klay. I agree Kerr's usage and lineups to play certain players has been truly awful but I feel like that's a separate discussion since with regards to starting Kerr has been able to get almost everyone to come off the bench at some point in time outside of Klay.

yes but as some point you just bench his ass and call it a day. you are the coach for crying out loud.
his ego can't cope with it? he feels he comes before the team? trade his ass.
enough with this supposed-to-be grown up man behaving like a pouty child.

[Onus]

That's why I routinely say that this is as much Kerr's fault, if not more. His rigidity about Klay is turning the narrative about Klay into something ugly, and it could be easily prevented by running the team like a true meritocracy. But its clear at this stage he has no interest in doing that

I get that it's partially on Kerr, since he's the coach and he determines playing time. But why is Klay the only one Kerr can't "coach"? Wiggins struggling got benched. Looney struggling got benched. Draymond becomes unhinged kept him on the bench when his suspension was over and then brought him off the bench. CP3 benched. JP benched. Iguodala benched. David Lee benched. Kerr is able to coach every other player but Klay. Kerr kind of has a long track record of benching other players when needed.

I was on the same boat as you and really wanted to blame Kerr, but when you think back on his coaching career, he's been able to get players to buy into coming off the bench. The lone exception has been Klay. I agree Kerr's usage and lineups to play certain players has been truly awful but I feel like that's a separate discussion since with regards to starting Kerr has been able to get almost everyone to come off the bench at some point in time outside of Klay.

yes but as some point you just bench his ass and call it a day. you are the coach for crying out loud.
his ego can't cope with it? he feels he comes before the team? trade his ass.
enough with this supposed-to-be grown up man behaving like a pouty child.

Steve has some culpability in this for sure. And if he can't coach Klay, then either Klay or Kerr should be removed the equation. I'm completely down for trading Klay for nothing at this point. I'd send him home for conduct detrimental to the team just so we can get a real sample size of what our team looks like.