Home game? Nawl leans in the Town 7:30 FSN 1/4/08

[Chris Cohan]

The Baron Davis debate comes down to this:

In the red corner - there are maybe 2 or 3 crazy fanboy videogame junkie teenageers who post here who feel like extending Davis at the predicted $20mil.

In the blue corner - there are maybe 1 1/2 crusty old "purist" jackoffs who hate Baron's personality so much that they undervalue his on court contribution and want to trade Davis for an expiring and an injury riddled 3rd tier PG today "for the future."

If you don't fall into either of these camps, how about we just stupulate that he's the best player we have access to at the position and we will have a ton of capspace when he expires after next season. Until then, let's stop rehashing the same tired sham arguments that he is either the devil incarnate or a perennial All Star? Theres been nothing new added to this discussion for most of 2 years, and at this point it makes for pretty boring and predictable reading,and it seemingly ALWAYS turns personal.

Shaddup already!

Agreed. But I'm not in either corner.

Can't trade him, wouldn't get anything for him, defniitely would lose in the immediacy by taking on expirings... but draft picks would have been nice when they might have been had!

Like him when he's on, sorry he's not on more than half a season, know he's a good guy in lots of ways but a pain in the a$$ if you're trying to manage his ego come payday/spotlight pointing. When he really comes to play against a big fat locomotive NBA powerhouse and we win, I'll let up on the postgame show.

Fin.

[BayArea_Warriors]

Cap'n Jack has got to start sailing his ship in the proper direction.

Dude's been on the wrong track these past games....

Cap'n Jack has been pissing me off lately. The dude forces bricks like no other and kills the chemistry. He's too damn selfish and if Nelllie was a good coach he'd yank his azz and sit him on the bench when he's complaining to the ref and not getting back on D.

Nellie has been terrible lately, terrible absolutely terrible rotations. Why put Jack on West when he clearly can't guard him? Al can do a better job with players like West and Boozer. In an important game as this for the battle of the 8th spot, he starts B Wright for 7 minutes! Al should've started, we all know how much of a better player he is in the first half and as a starter. Right when he subbed for Wright he hit a 3 immediately.

Baron shouldn't have went for all those steals when West was out in the 4th leaving Paul with more responsibility. Baron was out of gas but he shouldn't have went for steal after steal after steal attempts as it allowed CP3 to roast him. I mean Baron was playing him well throughout the game but in the fourth he played him absolutely terrible.

[FNQ]

[quote="BayArea_Warriors"][/quote]

People are as extreme as... well... Jack is... when they critique or praise Jack...

Most people haven't noticed yet, but - NO ONE - has been able to stop West this year. He has a quick, accurate hook. He can shoot semi-decently. And he's a very smart player. Jack did pretty well on him IMO - he kept him in front and needed help in the middle or low block, in the forms of Biedrins, Harrington, or one of the guards collapsing. Evidently, that wasn't part of the plan though...

It's silly to see people's expectations for some players... Jackson completely sealed West off the boards too. West was never even close to getting a board. Yes, Jackson was visibly sluggish when guarding on the perimeter and his shot was off... but now its trendy to hate on Jack... if everyone on the team did what he did on defense, we wouldn't have got outrebounded by a ton...

But according to the boxscores, Baron played extremely well and Jax was the Achilles'.... truth is no one ever put a body on Chandler, letting him just roam free (like D Wright, like Bonner, like Bass, and every other scrub with 30+ lbs on the W's)... Baron got into an ego-fest with Paul instead of feeding his hot hands (Harrington/Biedrins)... Jackson couldn't hit a shot... Monta "had the flu"... Buke has resorted to Pietrus status (standing in one spot and waiting)...

When Pietrus plays the most-mistake free game, there's something very wrong with the focus of the team. And when that many people are playing that bad, its the coach's fault. Bad rotations, and unmotivated team.

[Chris Cohan]

Right, Baron was actually really good in the first half when Paul guarded him for a bit and etc.-- Paul is a great perimeter defender but close to useless in the post against someone as good at that spot as Baron is.

And even though Baron's "defense" was a total joke on Paul in the second half/fourth quarter and even though his offense was NOWHERE (one made field goal after the half), he still somehow managed to outplay Jackson in the second half-- who was ALSO very, very good at times in the first half.

Let's blame the officials for ruining the team's focus (worked on the Suns against SA) because, otherwise, weve got very little.

Maybe it is minutes played. It'll have to be that if we're looking for a reason we can toss out that keeps the players in good standing.

Because the Dubs got totally owned at the end of that game.

As a team.

[turk3d]

Right, Baron was actually really good in the first half when Paul guarded him for a bit and etc.-- Paul is a great perimeter defender but close to useless in the post against someone as good at that spot as Baron is.

And even though Baron's "defense" was a total joke on Paul in the second half/fourth quarter and even though his offense was NOWHERE (one made field goal after the half), he still somehow managed to outplay Jackson in the second half-- who was ALSO very, very good at times in the first half.

Let's blame the officials for ruining the team's focus (worked on the Suns against SA) because, otherwise, weve got very little.

Maybe it is minutes played. It'll have to be that if we're looking for a reason we can toss out that keeps the players in good standing.

Because the Dubs got totally owned at the end of that game.

As a team.

Thank you.

[Souvlaki]

Sleepy are you missing the middle ground on Baron? I think there are less Baron ass kissers and less let's hang Baron posters than you think. Heck, I don't even think he's the devil anymore. Most people know what Baron is about at this point. Although, when a player is so highly touted and billed as the face of the team, he's going to take flak when the team doesn't produce. Why should he be an exception?

Last night's performance was just fine for a shooting guard. But we need him to take less shots and create for others more. 8 assists in almost 48 minutes is not going to cut it. He's capable of doing much better.

And what's wrong with suggestions of trading him? I'd rather sell high right now and get a cornerstone piece for the future rather than try to eek into the playoffs for another year and a half. Baron WILL get injured due to the way Nelson is playing him so much. I'd rather not wait for that shoe to drop.

[Souvlaki]

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Yeah, I'd like to see you play a guy 7 inches taller than you who all he does is shoot from the outside when defensively you're expected to help out on the double teams (because practically all of their other players can't guard their men or fight through the pick and rolls. This all for a 21 year old to have to figure out. If he sucked a$$ there was a bunch of other guys who sucked a$$ just as much. When you have a freakin' team defense that you play (for reason stated above) you can't pin it on just one guy (well I guess you can as you've proved here). After he came out their defense still sucked.

If one player is screwing up in the zone, it often leads to a cascade effect and an easy score. The thing is Monta is often the guy screwing up. And I personally don't care whether a player has difficulty defending because of his lack of physical attributes or his ball IQ. Monta is handicapped in both areas and his quickness isn't usually enough to bail him out.

I'm not sure people watch him play defense very closely. Wish I could post video and point out his numerous screw ups every game. It's pretty obvious and I think last night Nelson had had enough. He just doesn't look like he's putting in the effort on the defensive end.

As for Baron, yeah, I would rather have a rested Monta than a tired Baron on defense. When Baron's tired he does his stat padding slapping act way too much.

[Souvlaki]

By the way, +/- indicates that Pietrus was the best player on the floor in this game by a wide margin. Great stat. Give Pete the big contract.

[floppymoose]

The Mavs were 0-4 opening last season. Clearly they must have finished with the worst record.

[FNQ]

By the way, +/- indicates that Pietrus was the best player on the floor in this game by a wide margin. Great stat. Give Pete the big contract.

He was... we were best when he was on the court that game... seriously, give up

[FNQ]

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If one player is screwing up in the zone, it often leads to a cascade effect and an easy score. The thing is Monta is often the guy screwing up. And I personally don't care whether a player has difficulty defending because of his lack of physical attributes or his ball IQ. Monta is handicapped in both areas and his quickness isn't usually enough to bail him out.

I'm not sure people watch him play defense very closely. Wish I could post video and point out his numerous screw ups every game. It's pretty obvious and I think last night Nelson had had enough. He just doesn't look like he's putting in the effort on the defensive end.

As for Baron, yeah, I would rather have a rested Monta than a tired Baron on defense. When Baron's tired he does his stat padding slapping act way too much.

Its funny when someone who doesnt understand the game tries to critique a player he obviously has a beef with

Monta should be able to fight through screens... as if all elite PGs can do that

His job is to come over the top on screens and trail... it becomes the screening man's responsibility to stop the drive... then Monta's also supposed to dig on PFs, and close out on someone who obviously wont be threatened by a Monta block...

But yeah, keep blaming Monta... it makes Buke better

[Souvlaki]

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He was... we were best when he was on the court that game... seriously, give up

It could also mean the Hornets were worse, but not because of Pietrus. It could also mean we were better, but not because of Pietrus.

If Baron shoots 7-8 in one game we can draw the conclusion that for that game his three point shooting was among the best ever. Yet if we look at his career three point shooting, we can see he's a slightly below average three point shooter. The stats add up to make sense. Both from a macro and micro perspective. His career stats are valuable because they are made up of discrete statistics that directly correlate to his individual performances.

Now with +/-, the individual game stats mean nothing. We can see in each and every game completely flawed and irrelevant numbers. Yet, you try to claim that these same numbers add up to mean something. That's absurd from a statistical sense. Garbage in, garbage out.

Ask yourself this question, if +/- indicates a positive impact on the team, according to last game we should've played a lineup of Pietrus, Barnes, Azubuike, Wright, Harrington most of the game. Biedrins should've just sat at then end of the bench since he had one of the worst +/-'s. Now, you are going to tell me you believe that?

I just don't understand the love for this seriously useless stat.

[Souvlaki]

Its funny when someone who doesnt understand the game tries to critique a player he obviously has a beef with

Oh the irony. Beautiful.

But yeah, keep blaming Monta... it makes Buke better

This isn't about Buke. It's about Monta sucking. I haven't mentioned Buke for some time, but in your mind somehow if anyone criticizes Monta's poor play it MUST be because they like Buke. Funny.

Not handling screens well is a small part if his ineptitude. Half the time he's just lost on defense which is why Nelson yanked him in the playoffs last year and early this year and against the Hornets. But keep your blinders on the bull **** coming.

If Monta is not producing on the offensive end he's a liability. I like the kid and hope he can turn it around and improve his play because he's damn fun to watch streaking to the basket. Maybe he's just worried about padding his offensive numbers for a big contract and is dogging it on D. Dunno. Whatever reason, he needs to fix it to continue starting and getting playing time.

[Sleepy51]

Half the time he's just lost on defense which is why Nelson yanked him in the playoffs last year and early this year and against the Hornets. But keep your blinders on the bull **** coming.

Actually Nelson yanked him in the playoffs last year because he was an unmitigated disaster on offense, repeatedly dribbling off his foot and airballing 18 footers. Defense didn't even make the top 10 reasons he was benched in the playoffs.

[FNQ]

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It could also mean the Hornets were worse, but not because of Pietrus. It could also mean we were better, but not because of Pietrus.

If Baron shoots 7-8 in one game we can draw the conclusion that for that game his three point shooting was among the best ever. Yet if we look at his career three point shooting, we can see he's a slightly below average three point shooter. The stats add up to make sense. Both from a macro and micro perspective. His career stats are valuable because they are made up of discrete statistics that directly correlate to his individual performances.

Now with +/-, the individual game stats mean nothing. We can see in each and every game completely flawed and irrelevant numbers. Yet, you try to claim that these same numbers add up to mean something. That's absurd from a statistical sense. Garbage in, garbage out.

Ask yourself this question, if +/- indicates a positive impact on the team, according to last game we should've played a lineup of Pietrus, Barnes, Azubuike, Wright, Harrington most of the game. Biedrins should've just sat at then end of the bench since he had one of the worst +/-'s. Now, you are going to tell me you believe that?

I just don't understand the love for this seriously useless stat.

Do you see where you made a jump on one stat, and completely missed it on the other?

You basically say "Baron's 3PT% is grounded because you can fall back on his career #s to see what kind of shooter he is".

Then you say "Based on this one game, this lineup should have been played."

It shows to me that you truly don't grasp the concept of it, and it has been explained God knows how many times. EVERY stat is supplemental. What can you take from Biedrins' +/-? He got outrebounded and Chandler was able to put back a lot of offensive rebounds (8). Now despite that Biedrins was 10-11 from the field, did he play a good game? No. He didn't box out Chandler, he tried to tip rebounds to himself. Normally a good idea, not against Chandler, who's bigger, stronger, and to be honest, better at tipping the ball.

Once again - +/- is not for people who don't take a lot of stuff into account. If you want to look at things in an extremely basic way, then this stat is going to confuse you. Buke, POB, Beli... + because they were in garbage time. Pietrus/Barnes? They were not only on the court during the runs, but they were key contributors to it, a lot of which (Barnes) doesnt show up on the stat sheet.

Does that mean they are better than Baron, Ellis and Jack? Of course not. But if you look at things extremely basically, it can appear that way. The most simple way I can put it, is that +/- is a reflection of how well the person played their role that night, be it star PG, be it spark plug off the bench, or be it defensive/rebounding specialist.

[FNQ]

[quote="Souvlaki"][/quote]

I've just realized that you have no concept of defense... it struck me reading your analysis of Baron

Apparently any time someone in the NBA drives on our guards, it means they suck at defense

What's funny, is that guys like Kidd, Baron, Nash, hell even CP3 get screened all the time... they are near impossible to get around, if set correctly. Yet for some reason, only Monta doesn't do it well (except that he does it better than anyone not named Jackson, who has the athletic ability to go under a screen and still contest a shot because of his freak length).

Its a limited understanding of the game... simple as that...

[Souvlaki]

Do you see where you made a jump on one stat, and completely missed it on the other?

You basically say "Baron's 3PT% is grounded because you can fall back on his career #s to see what kind of shooter he is".

Then you say "Based on this one game, this lineup should have been played."

What? You still don't get it. Ok. Try this. If Baron is shooting 7-8 on 3's in a GAME, who do you want playing the last 4 minutes of the game and taking a 3 to win the game?

Ok. Compare that to, Pietrus is +15 Beidrins is -20. Who do you want playing the last 4 minutes of crunch time? You don't see the difference?

It shows to me that you truly don't grasp the concept of it, and it has been explained God knows how many times. EVERY stat is supplemental. What can you take from Biedrins' +/-? He got outrebounded and Chandler was able to put back a lot of offensive rebounds (. Now despite that Biedrins was 10-11 from the field, did he play a good game? No. He didn't box out Chandler, he tried to tip rebounds to himself. Normally a good idea, not against Chandler, who's bigger, stronger, and to be honest, better at tipping the ball.

Is that really your take? Seriously? Did you really just type that for the world to see? We lost because Beidrins didn't box out? LOL How about the fact that he's the only Warrior trying to actually rebound and if he has to stop players penetrating, you know the one's Monta lets blow by him, he's not in good rebounding position.

Just unreal your skewed view of the game.

Once again - +/- is not for people who don't take a lot of stuff into account. If you want to look at things in an extremely basic way, then this stat is going to confuse you.

No. If you like to make BS up about what a stat means then this stat is perfect. And that BS could be anything you like (see your example above).

Buke, POB, Beli... + because they were in garbage time. Pietrus/Barnes? They were not only on the court during the runs, but they were key contributors to it, a lot of which (Barnes) doesnt show up on the stat sheet.

I specifically didn't include players who only played garbage time because I knew you'd go for this (lame) excuse.

Does that mean they are better than Baron, Ellis and Jack? Of course not. But if you look at things extremely basically, it can appear that way. The most simple way I can put it, is that +/- is a reflection of how well the person played their role that night, be it star PG, be it spark plug off the bench, or be it defensive/rebounding specialist.

More made up BS. On what grounds do you make that assertion? +/- has nothing to do with a particular players roll. Pietrus played pretty poorly even by his standards in the Hornets game. In other words he didn't perform his roll well. However, I can point to a better reason he has a good +/-. He just happened to be on the court when other Warriors were hitting their shots and forcing turnovers. Yeah, other players.

As I've said, +/- has more to do with the other 4 guys rather than the player the stat is being attributed to.

[FNQ]

Vaki.... I'm pretty close to putting you on ignore... people are dumber for reading your stuff...

Jax had no problem boxing out West, sealing him every shot... you don't seem to grasp it, yet a lot of people do, but everyone's wrong and you are correct?

BTW - Buke was in the - til he did get those garbage time minutes

But just because you don't understand something and refuse to understand it doesn't make it BS

[Souvlaki]

[quote="510Reggae"][/quote]

You're just trying to be willfully ignorant and never even responding to my primary criticism that Monta is out of position most of the time. You won't even touch that because you know it's true.

The other half of your argument is just BS ad hominem stuff. Weak sauce. But I guess you've run out of excuses for Monta, so that's the best you've got.

[Souvlaki]

Vaki.... I'm pretty close to putting you on ignore... people are dumber for reading your stuff...

Jax had no problem boxing out West, sealing him every shot... you don't seem to grasp it, yet a lot of people do, but everyone's wrong and you are correct?

BTW - Buke was in the - til he did get those garbage time minutes

But just because you don't understand something and refuse to understand it doesn't make it BS

Dude. Please. I beg you. Put me on ignore. Your posts lack any meaningful content. You see the game in a very warped sense and you never respond to legitimate points that are made to you, because you know it all already.

Anyway, I guess Nelson is wrong about Monta and you're right. Ah huh. I'm sure in your fantasy world you know so much about basketball that you think you really should be on the sidelines instead of him.

Buh bye.