The Curry has elite handles/it's Monta's fault thread

[turk3d]

This way we can go back to discussing Harrison on the Harrison Barnes thread (since I'm getting the blame for sidetracking) and we can leave Curry out as well. W can re-kindle our arguments here if anyone wants to. Maybe we should make it a poll of some sort.

[Baby Face Curry]

Really

We still need a head trainer right?

[Onus]

I voted he has great handles. I mean really there isn't much he can't do with the ball. My only complaint is that he isn't stronger with the ball (pushing off and shielding with his body), but that has more to deal with his physical limitations than his actual skills. He still has room for improvement nonetheless, but he's shown great strides and I saw a lot to like especially in the playoffs.

[turk3d]

I voted he has great handles. I mean really there isn't much he can't do with the ball. My only complaint is that he isn't stronger with the ball (pushing off and shielding with his body), but that has more to deal with his physical limitations than his actual skills. He still has room for improvement nonetheless, but he's shown great strides and I saw a lot to like especially in the playoffs.

I actually have to agreww with you for the most part (much of what I've been saying although it hasn't been interpreted tbat wag bg some. One important point yu make here regarding good handles, it requires strength, one of the things that Curry is not as strong at, although I think that's one thing which really improved for him this year. He really needs to get stronger to become an elite PG in this league which is what you find in guys like Paul and even Billups (who I neglected to mention).

[JimmyTD3]

Why can't we just say...curry is a great player, a good passer with good handles, and already had a case to be the best 3pt shooter of all time. What is the point of debating whether his handles are good, great, or elite? Does this really warrant it's own thread?

Lets start a thread about whether lee is kind of ambidextrous, ambidextrous, or really ambidextrous. Or maybe about how biedrins is terrible, awful, or mediocre? At least those havent been discussed 8000 times already.
Seriously, it doesn't matter. Curry has good handles. Cool. Next.

[Onus]

I wouldn't classify nash as being strong and he has "good handles". I think the difference between the two right now is experience. Nash goes at his own pace, he'll back things out against a bigger defender and blow by them. Curry did a better job of it during the playoffs. The other thing is nash doesn't take off-balanced shots ( i don't consider his one footed shot off-balanced for him) and he'll just circle around the paint to see if anything else develops. Curry just gets so excited down there and will throw stuff up. Again I think that's experience and shot selection. You could also attribute it to Curry being forced to being more of a scorer. But anyway i'll be happy to watch his development.

Nash orchestrated some of the best offenses of all time, can't wait to see what Curry does in his prime.

[whocurrz]

So this thread is either going to become about Harrison Barnes or a stats vs eye test thread in 3,2,1 go...

[turk3d]

Why can't we just say...curry is a great player, a good passer with good handles, and already had a case to be the best 3pt shooter of all time. What is the point of debating whether his handles are good, great, or elite? Does this really warrant it's own thread?

Lets start a thread about whether lee is kind of ambidextrous, ambidextrous, or really ambidextrous. Or maybe about how biedrins is terrible, awful, or mediocre? At least those havent been discussed 8000 times already.
Seriously, it doesn't matter. Curry has good handles. Cool. Next.

The reason for this thread is
1) To get it out of the Barnes thread and
2) To prove Jester is wrong and that everyone disagrees with me the way he says they do.

[turk3d]

I wouldn't classify nash as being strong and he has "good handles". I think the difference between the two right now is experience. Nash goes at his own pace, he'll back things out against a bigger defender and blow by them. Curry did a better job of it during the playoffs. The other thing is nash doesn't take off-balanced shots ( i don't consider his one footed shot off-balanced for him) and he'll just circle around the paint to see if anything else develops. Curry just gets so excited down there and will throw stuff up. Again I think that's experience and shot selection. You could also attribute it to Curry being forced to being more of a scorer. But anyway i'll be happy to watch his development.

Nash orchestrated some of the best offenses of all time, can't wait to see what Curry does in his prime.

Actually Nash is an exception. M<ost things are generalization (which is typical of any stat). When you have an exception stat nerds call them "outliers". Strenght is definitely a good atrribute for a good ballhandler and is one of the things that I believe most improved on this year. One of his biggest problems imo is that he gets manhandled by bigger and stronger guys which is one of the reasons he gets stripped under pressure.

But yes, Nash is one of the very few guys with great handles that doesn't appear very strong in contracts to Paul, who's even smaller but built like a powerball. Guys like Paul, you can even get your hands on the ball but still are unable to pry it away because he's so strong. Tony Parker is another one who's very deceptive strength wise but is excellent at protecting the ball (another sign of a good ballhandler).

[cellomac1212]

Curry has great handles. The reason they aren't elite is because he does way too much with the ball only to get stuck in the same spot. Yeah, sometimes they work out and he gets a good looking shot, but most of the time he over dribbles, he takes a crap shot or throws the ball away. John Stockton had elite handles and never did anything special looking with the ball. When Curry learns how to use his handles to get him where he wants to go when he wants to go, he will have elite handles. With that said, he still does have great handles though, but for these reasons they are not elite, IMO...

[Jester_]

Curry has great handles. The reason they aren't elite is because he does way too much with the ball only to get stuck in the same spot. Yeah, sometimes they work out and he gets a good looking shot, but most of the time he over dribbles, he takes a crap shot or throws the ball away. John Stockton had elite handles and never did anything special looking with the ball. When Curry learns how to use his handles to get him where he wants to go when he wants to go, he will have elite handles. With that said, he still does have great handles though, but for these reasons they are not elite, IMO...

I disagree with your premise, but your take makes a lot more sense than Turks. "He has good handles but makes bad decisions with the ball" is a plausible explanation, "He makes bad decisions, therefore he has average handles" is not.

[FNQ]

Why can't we just say...curry is a great player, a good passer with good handles, and already had a case to be the best 3pt shooter of all time. What is the point of debating whether his handles are good, great, or elite? Does this really warrant it's own thread?

Lets start a thread about whether lee is kind of ambidextrous, ambidextrous, or really ambidextrous. Or maybe about how biedrins is terrible, awful, or mediocre? At least those havent been discussed 8000 times already.
Seriously, it doesn't matter. Curry has good handles. Cool. Next.

I feel this post is a good one, as long as it isn't embellished. That wouldn't be.

Agree. Its a ridiculous reason to start a thread offering the options like they are, since each adjective is independently defined. Better?

[JimmyTD3]

Why can't we just say...curry is a great player, a good passer with good handles, and already had a case to be the best 3pt shooter of all time. What is the point of debating whether his handles are good, great, or elite? Does this really warrant it's own thread?

Lets start a thread about whether lee is kind of ambidextrous, ambidextrous, or really ambidextrous. Or maybe about how biedrins is terrible, awful, or mediocre? At least those havent been discussed 8000 times already.
Seriously, it doesn't matter. Curry has good handles. Cool. Next.

I feel this post is a good one, as long as it isn't embellished. That wouldn't be.

Agree. Its a ridiculous reason to start a thread offering the options like they are, since each adjective is independently defined. Better?

Yeah, def. better. The adjectives "elite", "great", "good",etc. are subjective...there are no quantifiable factors (that I know of) that put someone at any of the tiers. Some may say that Kyrie, CP3, and Deron are elite while the others are just great...others may think Rondo, Crawford, and Rubio are elite, etc. And everyone has different reasons for thinking so, and a different definition for each level. And you can't say that anyone is wrong because, again, there is no set definition for each of those levels.

So this becomes a debate with two moving parts: is Curry elite? And also, what does elite mean? Don't think there is an 'answer', just an open door to debate in circles and switch from one part to the other.

[turk3d]

I'd probably have to agree with you. I've been saying all along that a lot of this stuff is subjective (one of the reasons which I don't get why people get bent out of shape when someone disagrees with them). In addition (after reflecting on all this) I would add to the poll Point Guard speciic which I figured would be implicit (but maybe not on this forum). Certainly Curry (if being compared to Centers and Power Forwards) would have "elite" handles and even most (if not all Small Forwards). But to me,

if you compare his handles to just other Point Guards than I feel that he's just average at this stage of his career. Even if I compared him to Lebron, I'd say that Curry's handles are better than his (just as is the average Point Guards). You can disagree with me on it, but unless you come up with something (other than you say so) I don't think you're going to change my mind but come up with a cogent argument and it's possible, but so far it's not.

The personal attacks or just blaming it on Monta just isn't going to get it done if you really want to convince me. There's quite a few things that Curry is very skilled at but not that I'd rate as elite yet aside from shooting long distance. Can he continue to get better? Yes. Will he continue to get better? He should but that remains to be seen.

[JimmyTD3]

I'd probably have to agree with you. I've been saying all along that a lot of this stuff is subjective (one of the reasons which I don't get why people get bent out of shape when someone disagrees with them). In addition (after reflecting on all this) I would add to the poll Point Guard speciic which I figured would be implicit (but maybe not on this forum). Certainly Curry (if being compared to Centers and Power Forwards) would have "elite" handles and even most (if not all Small Forwards). But to me,

if you compare his handles to just other Point Guards than I feel that he's just average at this stage of his career. Even if I compared him to Lebron, I'd say that Curry's handles are better than his (just as is the average Point Guards). You can disagree with me on it, but unless you come up with something (other than you say so) I don't think you're going to change my mind but come up with a cogent argument and it's possible, but so far it's not.

The personal attacks or just blaming it on Monta just isn't going to get it done if you really want to convince me. There's quite a few things that Curry is very skilled at but not that I'd rate as elite yet aside from shooting long distance. Can he continue to get better? Yes. Will he continue to get better? He should but that remains to be seen.

Ok, fine. He's only elite at one thing, good to great at the rest. No one outside maybe the top 5-10 players in the nba are elite at more than a couple of things among their position (if that). PG is also a pretty loaded position in the L right now so unlike say SF its harder to be elite with so many great players. I understand (and agree) with what you're trying to say, I just have no idea why it matters.

[Amazing Curry]

Doesn't matter if he has great handles if all he does is go side-to-side with them. If he ever learns to attack his defender, he'll be able to use those handles to his advantage.

[floppymoose]

When you can hit threes like Curry can, you are better off trying to get open on the perimeter rather than driving. Driving should be plan B if that's what the defense gives you.

[Onus]

I must admit i enjoyed Curry's dancing at the top of the key and sinking jumper after jumper on the spurs as their pgs were left on an island. We just have to find a way to keep their pg on curry.

[Amazing Curry]

When you can hit threes like Curry can, you are better off trying to get open on the perimeter rather than driving. Driving should be plan B if that's what the defense gives you.

Oh I'm all for Curry splashing down 3s. I just feel like having the ability to attack will give him more open looks because defenders have that to worry about.

[and1GS]

Well turked, I hope you learned something today.