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is Klay done?

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Re: is Klay done? 

Post#1081 » by michaelm » Thu Apr 11, 2024 2:50 am

wco81 wrote:If DVV stayed with the team, they probably would have gone a different way with the draft than Podz. That may or may not be a good thing, won't know for awhile.

Otherwise, if he could have raised his 3PA volume while maintaining the shooting percentages from last year as well as provide some ballandling for 25 MPG or more, he absolutely would have helped the team this year.

For all those who didn't want Klay to get so many minutes, a productive DDV would have given the team options. I know the same people who wanted to reduce Klay's role also are Moody stans. But he only played in garbage time last night, in one of the key remaining games of the season.

That should tip you off that it's probably going to be Klay in the playoffs rotation, not Moody. But DDV might have provided an alternative option, because Moses just hasn't been consistent enough shooter to get an expanded role.

Someone said elsewhere recently that hoping a great player like Klay gets back to something like his former heights is a better bet than hoping a player who has never reached those heights will somehow get there, and this is indeed true imo, and you were correct all along. No one would want Klay benched and Moody in his place on current form, but Moody’s play-off form last season was better than Klay’s for much of this season when he was chucking, not defending or rebounding, and being too tired when in the closing line-up for a number of games GSW lost at the death.

Those including me who thought his injuries and age meant he couldn’t get back to his current form were wrong, and kudos to Kerr (and you) for having better judgement. We still have to see whether Klay taking this long to come good will mean they are eliminated early in the play-offs by the Lakers whom they might have avoided with a higher seeding.
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Re: is Klay done? 

Post#1082 » by wco81 » Thu Apr 11, 2024 3:13 am

Klay may or may not be good enough to fulfill the team and the fans' aspirations.

But clearly the alternatives on the roster are limited. It would be great if both JK and Wiggins could each play 30 minutes in the play-in game(s) and playoffs, if the team makes it. That would mean they're scoring well enough with good efficiency to be on the court, including a lot of the time on the court together.

Same thing with other role players who are untested, like Podz and TJD.

Then they might not have to rely as much on Klay shooting like his former self.
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Re: is Klay done? 

Post#1083 » by jozef » Thu Apr 11, 2024 7:27 am

xdrta+ wrote:
jozef wrote: I am not interested in capology,...

Well then, you shouldn't opine on what the team should and shouldn't do with contracts. Saying things like they failed with DDV shows you have no clue on what they can and can't do.

michaelm wrote:
jozef wrote:There are many options how to keep good roster. For sure giving guard Poole 30 M when point guard Steph and shooting guard Klay combined for 90 M is extremely stupid decision. Maybe early sign-and-trades could minimalize the damage. Late reality check and creating extremely unathletic and small frontcourt roster where a rookie saves the season are another mistakes. I am not interested in capology, it is the ballgame what I am passionate about but I am sure that spending 206 M on this group is a failure from front office and ownership standpoint.

I would like to disdain apology as well, but it affects who they can keep and who they can sign. Poole was a player they drafted and could sign above the cap because they had his bird rights and at least keep the salary slot. Klay and Steph were signed above the cap on the basis of bird rights as well as I understand it. At the time they gave Poole the contract he had just contributed significantly to a title, the punch was a consideration, he hadn’t yet had his woeful next/last season and DDV hadn’t played a game for GSW and had been discarded by his previous team. DDV had a player option which he turned down for more money at the Knicks. I don’t know if they could have somehow turned CP3 into DDV, as I said I am not a capologist myself.

I also share the doubts of others regarding DDV’s play late season and in the play-offs last season. On the other hand maybe he was stifled at GSW minutes-wise and 3 point shooting-wise because he was playing next to Steph and Klay.

I don't need to be an expert in capology to know that comitting 120 M in PG/SG is an awful idea.
I am enough of expert to see Poole being an iso player exploring the cushion in travelling and palming judgement and DDV a perfect combo guard fitting in Warriors style.
I have no doubts about anybody's play late in the season or in the playoffs. They all are the same players, same fits, the playoffs are tightened competition but they don't change the substance. It is just about roles and fits, not mental or other downfalls.
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Re: is Klay done? 

Post#1084 » by michaelm » Thu Apr 11, 2024 7:46 am

jozef wrote:
xdrta+ wrote:
jozef wrote: I am not interested in capology,...

Well then, you shouldn't opine on what the team should and shouldn't do with contracts. Saying things like they failed with DDV shows you have no clue on what they can and can't do.

michaelm wrote:
jozef wrote:There are many options how to keep good roster. For sure giving guard Poole 30 M when point guard Steph and shooting guard Klay combined for 90 M is extremely stupid decision. Maybe early sign-and-trades could minimalize the damage. Late reality check and creating extremely unathletic and small frontcourt roster where a rookie saves the season are another mistakes. I am not interested in capology, it is the ballgame what I am passionate about but I am sure that spending 206 M on this group is a failure from front office and ownership standpoint.

I would like to disdain apology as well, but it affects who they can keep and who they can sign. Poole was a player they drafted and could sign above the cap because they had his bird rights and at least keep the salary slot. Klay and Steph were signed above the cap on the basis of bird rights as well as I understand it. At the time they gave Poole the contract he had just contributed significantly to a title, the punch was a consideration, he hadn’t yet had his woeful next/last season and DDV hadn’t played a game for GSW and had been discarded by his previous team. DDV had a player option which he turned down for more money at the Knicks. I don’t know if they could have somehow turned CP3 into DDV, as I said I am not a capologist myself.

I also share the doubts of others regarding DDV’s play late season and in the play-offs last season. On the other hand maybe he was stifled at GSW minutes-wise and 3 point shooting-wise because he was playing next to Steph and Klay.

I don't need to be an expert in capology to know that comitting 120 M in PG/SG is an awful idea.
I am enough of expert to see Poole being an iso player exploring the cushion in travelling and palming judgement and DDV a perfect combo guard fitting in Warriors style.
I have no doubts about anybody's play late in the season or in the playoffs. They all are the same players, same fits, the playoffs are tightened competition but they don't change the substance. It is just about roles and fits, not mental or other downfalls.

I am not from the US and don’t understand the salary cap rules well either, if at all. But as I understand it and has been said the question is not whether the money would have been better spent on other players, concerning which you are doubtless largely correct, but whether it was available to spend on other players, which it probably wasn’t. The salaries of all four of Curry, Thompson, Green and Poole, and Wiggins for that matter as well, are outside/above the cap and only allowed because of bird rights. It has cost the ownership hundreds of millions in luxury tax, which they were happy to pay because the players concerned, particularly Curry, have made them billions. When they signed Klay it was for market value for his play up until his injury, which was sustained in the service of GSW. Once the contracts are signed the organisation can only trade, stretch or waive them, they are otherwise committed to paying them regardless of injury or form.

If there is a way they could have kept DDV for the money he wanted (and got from the Knicks) I haven’t heard it, which doesn’t necessarily mean one didn’t exist I guess. If you are saying they should have kept DDV you do need by the conventions of debate to propose a mechanism by which this was possible though.
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Re: is Klay done? 

Post#1085 » by WarriorGM » Thu Apr 11, 2024 12:40 pm

I find all this DDV talk strange. Between Moody and DDV I'd go with Moody. Moody showed himself to be more useful in a playoffs setting. Despite this Kerr cannot find him minutes. Even Podz is a positive in a way DDV wasn't.

I'm happy for DDV. His decision to join the team last year displayed acumen that seems to be lacking in others. But both he and the Dubs are better off apart. That Villanova Reloaded Knicks team looks fun and special.
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Re: is Klay done? 

Post#1086 » by Warriors Analyst » Thu Apr 11, 2024 4:06 pm

With regards to DDV, I would wait until the playoffs before annoiting him. Last season, he had one of the highest variances of any NBA player in three-point shooting on a night-to-night basis. I was skeptical about his ability to translate to the playoffs last season and repeatedly harped on the fact that he barely shot at the rim and was a predictable turnover or terrible finisher at the rim. In the playoffs, Donte's shooting abandoned him and because he couldn't do anything on drives to the hoops, his offensive game fell apart. His shooting has been elite this season, but I still don't trust him as a playoff performer because of his overreliance on 3P shooting.

Beyond that, one certain poster's obsessive insistence that we should have kept DDV despite a clear inability to understand the salary cap/rules is quite amusing.
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Re: is Klay done? 

Post#1087 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Thu Apr 11, 2024 5:39 pm

No Klay is not done. Klay may not be starter quality but we have no starter quality replacement for Klay unless it is Kuminga. I don”t want Wiggins to shift to off guard defensively. Wiggins seems delicate so I want to keep Wiggins in his role.

So at off guard we have Klay, kuminga playing a position he does not know, Payton, Moody Podz and Quinones. Kerr could be beter at figuring out who to play in what situation. These guys are very different from each other. We have no starting quality off guard but we have so many unique options of just below starter quality off guards.


Saric, Chris Paul, Moody, Payton, cash and draft picks for Dejounte Murray, a big mediocre center and a dribble harassing defensive point guard quicker than Payton and a defensive 6’ 6” 2-3 tweener. is my deal to fix the Warriors. Then Dejounte is the starting off guard and Klay is the shooting option back up for Dejounte and Wiggins.

With the defensive 6’ 6” 2-3 tweener I am looking for a player quicker than Moody and more intense than Moody who is cheap because he fails at offense. If we want some offense with better defense than Klay to back up DeJounte Murray we have Podz and Quinones. Let some other team try to unleash Moody’s potential.

I love Payton’s disruptive defense but I am not sure that Payton is quick enough to make a point guard give up his dribble. With Curry not being quick enough to defend some point guards it would be nice to have somebody that could defensively bother oposing point guards. Payton pre Dillon Brooks injury seemed better than current Payton. Payton may have begun his decline.

Looney and Trayce are undersized centers. Let’s have a full sized 3rd string center.

Chris Paul has been valuable but we do not need him. When Curry and Draymond sit I would be fine with A Dejointe Murray Podz back court handling the offensive point guard duties. If Dejounte can’t handle the defensive point guard job we would have our point guard stopping role player to bring in.

Klay is not done or useless but he should be our 7th man role player now not a starter. It is fine for the 7th man to start but not fine for the 7th man to play 30 minutes per game.
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Re: is Klay done? 

Post#1088 » by Nvnervous45 » Thu Apr 11, 2024 9:38 pm

I'm probably in the minority but I think Kerr has got the right rotation going now. A hot Klay should get 30+ minutes, whereas a cold klay should get less than . There seems to be no in-between Klay.
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Re: is Klay done? 

Post#1089 » by Nvnervous45 » Thu Apr 11, 2024 9:39 pm

I'm probably in the minority here, but I think Kerr has got the right rotation going now. A hot Klay should get 30+ minutes, whereas a cold klay should get less than . There seems to be no in-between Klay.
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Re: is Klay done? 

Post#1090 » by TB » Thu Apr 11, 2024 10:25 pm

Nvnervous45 wrote:I'm probably in the minority here, but I think Kerr has got the right rotation going now. A hot Klay should get 30+ minutes, whereas a cold klay should get less than . There seems to be no in-between Klay.


I think the problem is Kerr only sees it one way, and that way is Klay getting his 30 minutes regardless.
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Re: is Klay done? 

Post#1091 » by Old_Blue » Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:36 pm

TB wrote:
Nvnervous45 wrote:I'm probably in the minority here, but I think Kerr has got the right rotation going now. A hot Klay should get 30+ minutes, whereas a cold klay should get less than . There seems to be no in-between Klay.


I think the problem is Kerr only sees it one way, and that way is Klay getting his 30 minutes regardless.


Klay isn't the PROBLEM. Klay's the SOLUTION. Late on a Thursday afternoon in April, what I said back in November bears repeating:

Like it or not, Steve Kerr's got a fever and the only prescription is more Klay bell. And, if he's right, before we're done here, ya'll be wearing gold plated diapers. We just gotta let these guys explore the space. :D

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Re: is Klay done? 

Post#1092 » by michaelm » Fri Apr 12, 2024 12:12 am

Warriors Analyst wrote:With regards to DDV, I would wait until the playoffs before annoiting him. Last season, he had one of the highest variances of any NBA player in three-point shooting on a night-to-night basis. I was skeptical about his ability to translate to the playoffs last season and repeatedly harped on the fact that he barely shot at the rim and was a predictable turnover or terrible finisher at the rim. In the playoffs, Donte's shooting abandoned him and because he couldn't do anything on drives to the hoops, his offensive game fell apart. His shooting has been elite this season, but I still don't trust him as a playoff performer because of his overreliance on 3P shooting.

Beyond that, one certain poster's obsessive insistence that we should have kept DDV despite a clear inability to understand the salary cap/rules is quite amusing.

Pretty much my view as well, including in regard to the salary cap.
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Re: is Klay done? 

Post#1093 » by michaelm » Fri Apr 12, 2024 12:18 am

Old_Blue wrote:
TB wrote:
Nvnervous45 wrote:I'm probably in the minority here, but I think Kerr has got the right rotation going now. A hot Klay should get 30+ minutes, whereas a cold klay should get less than . There seems to be no in-between Klay.


I think the problem is Kerr only sees it one way, and that way is Klay getting his 30 minutes regardless.


Klay isn't the PROBLEM. Klay's the SOLUTION. Late on a Thursday afternoon in April, what I said back in November bears repeating:

Like it or not, Steve Kerr's got a fever and the only prescription is more Klay bell. And, if he's right, before we're done here, ya'll be wearing gold plated diapers. We just gotta let these guys explore the space. :D


Clearly those who wanted Moody to get his minutes were wrong, and yes he is the only player other than Curry likely to be a frequent volume scorer.

There is imo still some room for discussion of how best to utilise him, which is probably not for 35 minutes unless he is having an exceptional night, and not on the closing unit when he is tired for defensive possessions particularly when they have a significant lead.
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Re: is Klay done? 

Post#1094 » by DonaldSanders » Fri Apr 12, 2024 12:57 am

michaelm wrote:Clearly those who wanted Moody to get his minutes were wrong, and yes he is the only player other than Curry likely to be a frequent volume scorer.

There is imo still some room for discussion of how best to use him, which is probably not for 35 minutes unless he is having an exceptional night, and not on the closing unit for defensive possessions when he is tired and they have a significant lead.



The clamoring for Moody was because Klay was playing poorly and we wanted Steve to have a meritocracy. Eventually Klay went to the bench, where he found his groove again and he's been playing mostly well since. It was more about the meritocracy, which does/did work. I'm still a bit concerned about him having the energy to play closing defense, especially on a night where the shot isn't falling. I think we all hope he plays lights out of course.

I don't think if we had just left Klay in the starting lineup that he'd be playing this well. And if he's starting to play badly again, someone else should take some of his minutes.
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Re: is Klay done? 

Post#1095 » by watch1958 » Fri Apr 12, 2024 1:11 am

DonaldSanders wrote:
michaelm wrote:Clearly those who wanted Moody to get his minutes were wrong, and yes he is the only player other than Curry likely to be a frequent volume scorer.

There is imo still some room for discussion of how best to use him, which is probably not for 35 minutes unless he is having an exceptional night, and not on the closing unit for defensive possessions when he is tired and they have a significant lead.



The clamoring for Moody was because Klay was playing poorly and we wanted Steve to have a meritocracy. Eventually Klay went to the bench, where he found his groove again and he's been playing mostly well since. It was more about the meritocracy, which does/did work. I'm still a bit concerned about him having the energy to play closing defense, especially on a night where the shot isn't falling. I think we all hope he plays lights out of course.

I don't think if we had just left Klay in the starting lineup that he'd be playing this well. And if he's starting to play badly again, someone else should take some of his minutes.
I can’t speak for other people, but my “clamoring” for Moody was for him to play more minutes regularly. Didn’t care who the minutes came from, though there were times it should have been Klay.

The inability to figure out how to do it was stupid, and cost the team games.
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Re: is Klay done? 

Post#1096 » by michaelm » Fri Apr 12, 2024 1:26 am

DonaldSanders wrote:
michaelm wrote:Clearly those who wanted Moody to get his minutes were wrong, and yes he is the only player other than Curry likely to be a frequent volume scorer.

There is imo still some room for discussion of how best to use him, which is probably not for 35 minutes unless he is having an exceptional night, and not on the closing unit for defensive possessions when he is tired and they have a significant lead.


The clamoring for Moody was because Klay was playing poorly and we wanted Steve to have a meritocracy. Eventually Klay went to the bench, where he found his groove again and he's been playing mostly well since. It was more about the meritocracy, which does/did work. I'm still a bit concerned about him having the energy to play closing defense, especially on a night where the shot isn't falling. I think we all hope he plays lights out of course.

I don't think if we had just left Klay in the starting lineup that he'd be playing this well. And if he's starting to play badly again, someone else should take some of his minutes.


Pretty much agree, I thought Moody should get more minutes and Klay less myself, and also agree going to the bench and playing less minutes at least coincided with his turnaround, and may have caused him to re-think his game. Post the injuries and with age he is at the very least not the same iron man he once was, and I still think 35 minutes is too many.
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Re: is Klay done? 

Post#1097 » by CDM_Stats » Fri Apr 12, 2024 7:26 am

michaelm wrote:Clearly those who wanted Moody to get his minutes were wrong, and yes he is the only player other than Curry likely to be a frequent volume scorer.

There is imo still some room for discussion of how best to utilise him, which is probably not for 35 minutes unless he is having an exceptional night, and not on the closing unit when he is tired for defensive possessions particularly when they have a significant lead.


Clearly? Up until game 70, Moody was less of a drain offensively and clearly better defensively. Like the majority of the season too, because his variance game to game is nowhere near Klay's. And then Klay finally rattles off 4 consecutive good games (really 3 in 4, but whatever), in April - I think most Warriors fans have seen the late season good game mirage a hundred times before - and that erases the entire season? It justifies how this all played out? Because he beat up Houston, Utah and the Lakers in April? I immediately think of guys like Larry Hughes, Brandan Wright, Ike Diogu and Anthony Randolph pummeling non-playoff teams to end a year and the hope it gave every offseason.. until games started mattering again

Klay's been the worst subject on this board because on one hand, he's getting blamed for any defensive play he's involved in, and on the other, a mini-run to close the season proves he's back. It makes no sense.. he's a microwave player that is going to hurt the team if he's not making shots. Its who he's been for 3 years now.. a low floor, high ceiling player that has been averaging more towards the floor than the ceiling
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Re: is Klay done? 

Post#1098 » by svart » Fri Apr 12, 2024 7:29 am

DonaldSanders wrote:
michaelm wrote:Clearly those who wanted Moody to get his minutes were wrong, and yes he is the only player other than Curry likely to be a frequent volume scorer.

There is imo still some room for discussion of how best to use him, which is probably not for 35 minutes unless he is having an exceptional night, and not on the closing unit for defensive possessions when he is tired and they have a significant lead.



The clamoring for Moody was because Klay was playing poorly and we wanted Steve to have a meritocracy.


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Re: is Klay done? 

Post#1099 » by michaelm » Fri Apr 12, 2024 8:14 am

CDM_Stats wrote:
michaelm wrote:Clearly those who wanted Moody to get his minutes were wrong, and yes he is the only player other than Curry likely to be a frequent volume scorer.

There is imo still some room for discussion of how best to utilise him, which is probably not for 35 minutes unless he is having an exceptional night, and not on the closing unit when he is tired for defensive possessions particularly when they have a significant lead.


Clearly? Up until game 70, Moody was less of a drain offensively and clearly better defensively. Like the majority of the season too, because his variance game to game is nowhere near Klay's. And then Klay finally rattles off 4 consecutive good games (really 3 in 4, but whatever), in April - I think most Warriors fans have seen the late season good game mirage a hundred times before - and that erases the entire season? It justifies how this all played out? Because he beat up Houston, Utah and the Lakers in April? I immediately think of guys like Larry Hughes, Brandan Wright, Ike Diogu and Anthony Randolph pummeling non-playoff teams to end a year and the hope it gave every offseason.. until games started mattering again

Klay's been the worst subject on this board because on one hand, he's getting blamed for any defensive play he's involved in, and on the other, a mini-run to close the season proves he's back. It makes no sense.. he's a microwave player that is going to hurt the team if he's not making shots. Its who he's been for 3 years now.. a low floor, high ceiling player that has been averaging more towards the floor than the ceiling

I was on the Moody train myself and still am, he should be getting more minutes now regardless and I can only imagine Kerr has some strange prejudice against him.

I do think the team needs a second scorer/shooter, and those who argued Klay was the only likely candidate are looking to have been proven correct just now, admittedly from the evidence of only a few games. I still wouldn’t play Klay more than 30 minutes a game, preferably only 25 minutes, and definitely not on the closing unit for defensive possessions.

I thought he was alright in 2022 btw, particularly in the finals, but perhaps the short season he played aided his oft injured and somewhat old body.
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Re: is Klay done? 

Post#1100 » by wco81 » Fri Apr 12, 2024 9:14 am

Look at how Steph has struggled since the all star break.

Team still won because of better defense and weaker competition.

This last game vs. Portland, Curry struggled most of the game and then in the last 5-6 minutes, he made a couple of shots and created assists to pull out the game.


They got away with it because it was Portland, who didn’t have Simons or Grant or Sharpe and they went ice cold for the last 9 minutes.

So what happens vs. better teams if Curry struggles and they need scoring? Hope Wiggins and Dray are hitting their shots? Hope their defense keeps the team close while CUrry tries to get good looks?

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