Warriors trade Poole, Rollins, Baldwin Jr., 2027 #2, 2030 protected #1 to Wizards for Chris Paul

[tarantism]

This isn't directed specifically at you, but I feel as if we'd all be better off watching the game with good eyes instead of looking at DPM numbers. But I'm not a big fan of on/off or +/- being used as a catch-all shortcut in general.

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[CDM_Stats]

What do the metrics look like for Biyombo? He seemed to have decent BBIQ the few times I’ve seen him.

not great.. before last season I'd argue hes not even worth a roster spot anywhere in the league, due to him being such a massive offensive liability. He had an OK year last year, but looks to be mostly smoke and mirrors. Main thing the guy is good at is post defense, but that's a dying art in the game. Like being fluent in Latin, its cool, but its not very useful

For all his strength, he's not much of an impact team rebounder, awful hands, and his shot blocking (while somewhat useful) only works if you keep him around the rim, likely in zone more than man. So to bring him in is a very niche fit that will cause problems too, as its not like the 2nd unit is going to be offensively powerful as is.. certainly not powerful enough to accommodate an offensive zero with defensive limitations

But the most damning thing is that the Suns, who are really selling out to win this year, have not brought him back despite his OK year with them last year. Even they dont believe in it.. why should we?

Thanks. From what I’ve seen he’s capable if switched outside. But is still reluctant to switch so gets there late and allows too many open 3’s. Didn’t even consider hands because I didn’t notice anything in the limited minutes.

One of the things I like about TJD is he looks to have above average hands.

Stats have him as below average perimeter defender (for Cs, even), though his athleticism always makes teams believe he could, or should, be able to do it. And yea.. he has worse hands than Wiseman by miles. I'm not even sure he has fingers tbh

Someone like Biyombo's only value would be as a placeholder for TJD, someone for him to leapfrog. But since we arent carrying 15 to start, thats a huge luxury and something I dont think we need.. especially since its very unlikely Biyombo would work out here

[EvanZ]

This isn't directed specifically at you, but I feel as if we'd all be better off watching the game with good eyes instead of looking at DPM numbers. But I'm not a big fan of on/off or +/- being used as a catch-all shortcut in general.

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People asked for metrics...this is one of the best metrics and the difference between Biyombo and Muscala is huge. That's also what my eyes have showed me over the years watching them.

Do you think Biyombo is a plus NBA player?

[CDM_Stats]

This isn't directed specifically at you, but I feel as if we'd all be better off watching the game with good eyes instead of looking at DPM numbers. But I'm not a big fan of on/off or +/- being used as a catch-all shortcut in general.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

I dont think *individual* numbers can be used in that way (or comparing them across players, conclusively). Like if I just cited last year's Biyombo/Muscala numbers.. would that conclusively tell me that one is better than the other? No.. but this kind of graph is very useful because it shows that Biyombo's defensive numbers are more credible than not, as they've been consistently below neutral his entire career, and thats supposed to be his calling card. Conversely, known 3pt shooting big Mike Muscala started off brutal and has learned how to play in systems and the results have improved. I wouldn't compare the different colored lines, just look at trajectory.. and even Biyombo's spike was that one year in Toronto where he looked like he was figuring it out. But then right back to being a scrub

[tarantism]

This isn't directed specifically at you, but I feel as if we'd all be better off watching the game with good eyes instead of looking at DPM numbers. But I'm not a big fan of on/off or +/- being used as a catch-all shortcut in general.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

I dont think *individual* numbers can be used in that way (or comparing them across players, conclusively). Like if I just cited last year's Biyombo/Muscala numbers.. would that conclusively tell me that one is better than the other? No.. but this kind of graph is very useful because it shows that Biyombo's defensive numbers are more credible than not, as they've been consistently below neutral his entire career, and thats supposed to be his calling card. Conversely, known 3pt shooting big Mike Muscala started off brutal and has learned how to play in systems and the results have improved. I wouldn't compare the different colored lines, just look at trajectory.. and even Biyombo's spike was that one year in Toronto where he looked like he was figuring it out. But then right back to being a scrub

That's another way of looking at the graph I hadn't considered. It does track better when I think of it that way.

Your first statement is how I feel and where I get hung up. I don't mind using catch all defensive +/- metrics for five man units. But parsing it out individually doesn't tell the whole story for me. When it comes to modern NBA defense the devil is in the details and without access to expensive tracking data we can possibly glean enough to tell the whole story and accurately rate a player.

But I digress. Not trying to derail the thread. I just see stats like DARKO thrown around as if they're definitive more often than I'd like - not that EvanZ was necessarily doing that.

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[tarantism]

This isn't directed specifically at you, but I feel as if we'd all be better off watching the game with good eyes instead of looking at DPM numbers. But I'm not a big fan of on/off or +/- being used as a catch-all shortcut in general.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

People asked for metrics...this is one of the best metrics and the difference between Biyombo and Muscala is huge. That's also what my eyes have showed me over the years watching them.

Do you think Biyombo is a plus NBA player?

I don't have an issue with the graph itself or how you used it. I was more generally pontificating, ha.

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[CDM_Stats]

That's another way of looking at the graph I hadn't considered. It does track better when I think of it that way.

Your first statement is how I feel and where I get hung up. I don't mind using catch all defensive +/- metrics for five man units. But parsing it out individually doesn't tell the whole story for me. When it comes to modern NBA defense the devil is in the details and without access to expensive tracking data we can possibly glean enough to tell the whole story and accurately rate a player.

But I digress. Not trying to derail the thread. I just see stats like DARKO thrown around as if they're definitive more often than I'd like - not that EvanZ was necessarily doing that.

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I look at metrics like they are clues to a crime.. they can really help understand the past and piece it together, but the details have to be filled in with old-fashioned legwork. And like clues in a crime, they *could* point to future information/understanding, but very frequently don't unless the context/situation is the same

FWIW, I dont think people need access to all kinds of data to evaluate defense.. re-watching key plays, especially off-ball plays that usually influence the result most, is the biggest thing I've learned in the past few years. Offensively too, actually. Fans too often look at results and walk it back from there, but the root causes are frequently overlooked. The Warriors brass has done an excellent job at finding people who are great at being root causes of good plays, with Looney/GP2/Wiggins being the more recent examples. Moody is knocking on the door of that, and Podz looks like he could be one of those guys too. Maybe even TJD? We'll see but assuming good health, we're going to have a lot of smart and unselfish players on the team

[and1GS]

The Darko stuff is super interesting. I don't think people here are using it as end all be all, but like FNQ said it helps point us to a probable outcome. Not gonna pretend to understand it all, but it does help me make sense of guys I don't watch as much.

If we're talking just eyes test...I've always liked Muscala and thought Suns Biyombo was empty calories outside of his random hot spurts - like what JaVale did with us. Interesting to see that matches up with the numbers, to an extent.

[Twinkie defense]

He's better off in Washington where he'll be top 3 in the league in scoring. Dubs are better off without him to scapegoat so they can truly see where their issues lie moving forward.. with Klays diminishing contributions, and Dray's just wanting to get one last contract.

[Twinkie defense]

like FNQ said

He left, no?

[HiRez]

I look at metrics like they are clues to a crime..

In Poole’s case it was literally a crime…that Kerr played him so much.

[DonaldSanders]

like FNQ said

He left, no?

Well... yes and no. There's a "new" guy that is way ahead of everyone on stats/tracking that you should listen to. They aren't the same name, but they are the same person

[CDM_Stats]

I look at metrics like they are clues to a crime..

In Poole’s case it was literally a crime…that Kerr played him so much.

nice

[CDM_Stats]

Was there ever any verification of the trade exception we got here?

[Warriorfan]

In hindsight would like to have seen what CP3 would have brought out of Wiseman

[Twinkie defense]

like FNQ said

He left, no?

Well... yes and no. There's a "new" guy that is way ahead of everyone on stats/tracking that you should listen to. They aren't the same name, but they are the same person

Wait, 510 Reggae is still here?!

[floppymoose]

It's possible everyone starts off terrible in DARKO. I dont know the model but most regression-based adjusted +- systems have to pick a starting value for any player who has not been seen before (ie, rookies), and typically a low initial value is assigned. So Maybe Saric and Muscala were always decent, even as rookies, and it took a while for the data to promote them out of their initially assigned value.

[watch1958]

He left, no?

Well... yes and no. There's a "new" guy that is way ahead of everyone on stats/tracking that you should listen to. They aren't the same name, but they are the same person

Wait, 510 Reggae is still here?!

No, it’s Rowell.

[Scotty2Hotty]

No one gets on with Draymond until HE says so. THAT’S the problem.

sure but losing KD.. that sucked, but he's also had a problem playing with others as well

in this case.. we lost Poole. I cant even pretend to mind that one

Draymond has narcissistic anger management issues. I worked with a guy with it and have an ex in-law with it. As long as he’s on the team, there will always be internal issues. They are the cancer… not the guys he attacks.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[Scotty2Hotty]

KD and Draymond are fine... in fact they blame Kerr for their beef

It's good that Draymond will yell at anyone, not just those guys "below" him. Like Klay said, you can't play for the Warriors if you can't handle getting yelled at by Draymond.

https://youtu.be/3x6DjeJNd64?t=12m50s

“The person that always went too far was Draymond Green.” - KD

"We all respected that, we all kinda looked up to that" - KD

Seems like either you didn't watch the interview, or it doesn't mean what you think it means! What you see there is a lot of praise and mutual respect.

"That was insane to see," Durant said. "Glad Nurk is all right. Never seen that before in a basketball court in an NBA game. I hope Draymond gets the help he needs. It's been incident after incident."