Game 71: Warriors @ Heat 4:30pm PDT

[killmongrel]

Oh no, disaster; Klay started, lead the team in plus minus, lead the team in points and scoredrd efficiently. Disaster.

But Moody………..!!!

You have this same energy when Klay has a bad game, right? This was against an undermanned Heat team.

He has waited 71 games into a 82 game season for this. He has my sympathy.

[whatisacenter]

solid win! the wings played great and it was fun to see!

[Coxy]

Great win, so good.

Happy for Klay, love him playing like this again. I hate that it wont last due to the nature of age and injuries, but damn it's good to see him light it up today and shove it up peoples asses.

[Crazy-Canuck]

Read on Twitter

This is the defense we need. Dray still is amazing even if you dislike the person.

No blocks.
No steals.
No charges.

Just good positional defense and awareness. The only people that don't like this defense are the guys who need boxscore points for fantasy league.

[jozef]

Read on Twitter

This is the defense we need. Dray still is amazing even if you dislike the person.

To be fair it is a sample of Heat players making wrong reads. Adebayo missed wide open Mills on perimeter and instead of it he passed under basket. Next Caleb Martin hesitated to pass to open Mills. Finally Mills got the ball but he choosed wrong direction to blow by Wiggins - the right to the middle was packed while the left was open. So they ran the shot clock out.

In fact Warriors messed the rotation: initial mismatch was Green on Mills and Moody on Adebayo. Green went to help on Adebayo and then Moody ran to wrong guy under basket covered by Wiggins, that's why Mills was so open. It did take a long while to get in right positions and luckily Heat could not capitalize on it.

[Jester_]

You have this same energy when Klay has a bad game, right? This was against an undermanned Heat team.

He has waited 71 games into a 82 game season for this. He has my sympathy.

It's the same **** every time with these guys. After 10 horrible games we pull one out "where are all the haters now???"

[TB]

Just a world of difference when the splash bro's can shoot 37+ percent from 3 on really high volume, and everyone else plays with a ton of under control force (I'm sounding like Kerr lol). Dubs shot 72% from 2 pointers this game, taking advantage of tough perimeter defense by the Heat.

When the effort/force/toughness/whatever you want to call it is high and the whistles get swallowed, the dubs are a dangerous team. Thats why they have always been built for the playoffs. Unfortunately, the damage they have self-inflicted this regular season is probably going to cost them a chance at even having a 7 game series.

[Onus]

Just a world of difference when the splash bro's can shoot 37+ percent from 3 on really high volume, and everyone else plays with a ton of under control force (I'm sounding like Kerr lol). Dubs shot 72% from 2 pointers this game, taking advantage of tough perimeter defense by the Heat.

When the effort/force/toughness/whatever you want to call it is high and the whistles get swallowed, the dubs are a dangerous team. Thats why they have always been built for the playoffs. Unfortunately, the damage they have self-inflicted this regular season is probably going to cost them a chance at even having a 7 game series.

If we can hit shots and play defense we can play with anyone mostly just dominate the g league teams in the nba.

we haven't won in orlando in 5 years or something like that.

[ILOVEIT]

Eh....Miami without any firepower (no Butler and Bam as a primary scorer)....not impressed. I'll take it...but doesn't change the trajectory of this team.

[CDM_Stats]

Read on Twitter

This is the defense we need. Dray still is amazing even if you dislike the person.

No blocks.
No steals.
No charges.

Just good positional defense and awareness. The only people that don't like this defense are the guys who need boxscore points for fantasy league.

Took Viray a while but he's finally saying it.. most wont anyways. But since defense is valued less (appropriately so in most cases, but not in elite cases).. Dray is to the defense what Steph is to the offense. He's so good that he can carry ineffective players on his back

Also goes to show what the defense can be... notice who's on the court. Might be worth trying these mostly defensive units out. And if we do run one of those units, GP2 doesnt always have to be a part of them. We have several guys who legitimately could be 2 way guys

[Onus]

Read on Twitter

This is the defense we need. Dray still is amazing even if you dislike the person.

No blocks.
No steals.
No charges.

Just good positional defense and awareness. The only people that don't like this defense are the guys who need boxscore points for fantasy league.

Took Viray a while but he's finally saying it.. most wont anyways. But since defense is valued less (appropriately so in most cases, but not in elite cases).. Dray is to the defense what Steph is to the offense. He's so good that he can carry ineffective players on his back

Also goes to show what the defense can be... notice who's on the court. Might be worth trying these mostly defensive units out. And if we do run one of those units, GP2 doesnt always have to be a part of them. We have several guys who legitimately could be 2 way guys

But Dray has proven he can't carry ineffective players on his back on defense. He needs elite defenders around him to have this impact. Dray is the qb of the defense and is amazing, but he needs talent around him. Steph succeeds with defensive players on offense. Dray succeeds with other defensive players. 1 player can mess up the whole defense. Dray is top 5 good, but he's not carrying a defense by himself the way AD and Gobert do.

[CDM_Stats]

Read on Twitter

This is the defense we need. Dray still is amazing even if you dislike the person.

No blocks.
No steals.
No charges.

Just good positional defense and awareness. The only people that don't like this defense are the guys who need boxscore points for fantasy league.

Took Viray a while but he's finally saying it.. most wont anyways. But since defense is valued less (appropriately so in most cases, but not in elite cases).. Dray is to the defense what Steph is to the offense. He's so good that he can carry ineffective players on his back

Also goes to show what the defense can be... notice who's on the court. Might be worth trying these mostly defensive units out. And if we do run one of those units, GP2 doesnt always have to be a part of them. We have several guys who legitimately could be 2 way guys

But Dray has proven he can't carry ineffective players on his back on defense. He needs elite defenders around him to have this impact. Dray is the qb of the defense and is amazing, but he needs talent around him. Steph succeeds with defensive players on offense. Dray succeeds with other defensive players. 1 player can mess up the whole defense. Dray is top 5 good, but he's not carrying a defense by himself the way AD and Gobert do.

1 - neither AD nor Gobert carry a defense by themselves at all. AD is far, far closer to being that guy but Gobert absolutely not. Bring him to the perimeter and see what happens
2 - Steph has been a liability defensively for a while. Poole was a liability. Klay became a liability after his injuries. Barnes was a liability. All of whom were part of elite defenses.. has Curry not had help on offense? Steph has had one bad offensive player in 22, and that was Looney. Draymond had 2 bad defensive players in Steph + Poole or Klay. And thats despite defense having a distinct disadvantage because on offense, you can control where the ball goes.

So whats the difference? Both need competency around them to be meaningfully elite

[Onus]

Took Viray a while but he's finally saying it.. most wont anyways. But since defense is valued less (appropriately so in most cases, but not in elite cases).. Dray is to the defense what Steph is to the offense. He's so good that he can carry ineffective players on his back

Also goes to show what the defense can be... notice who's on the court. Might be worth trying these mostly defensive units out. And if we do run one of those units, GP2 doesnt always have to be a part of them. We have several guys who legitimately could be 2 way guys

But Dray has proven he can't carry ineffective players on his back on defense. He needs elite defenders around him to have this impact. Dray is the qb of the defense and is amazing, but he needs talent around him. Steph succeeds with defensive players on offense. Dray succeeds with other defensive players. 1 player can mess up the whole defense. Dray is top 5 good, but he's not carrying a defense by himself the way AD and Gobert do.

1 - neither AD nor Gobert carry a defense by themselves at all. AD is far, far closer to being that guy but Gobert absolutely not. Bring him to the perimeter and see what happens
2 - Steph has been a liability defensively for a while. Poole was a liability. Klay became a liability after his injuries. Barnes was a liability. All of whom were part of elite defenses.. has Curry not had help on offense? Steph has had one bad offensive player in 22, and that was Looney. Draymond had 2 bad defensive players in Steph + Poole or Klay. And thats despite defense having a distinct disadvantage because on offense, you can control where the ball goes.

So whats the difference? Both need competency around them to be meaningfully elite

The Utah jazz were a top 5 defense with absolutely no one else on the team being anywhere near an elite defender.

I guess it depends on what you consider bad. Teams don't guard draymond at all, but Steph is able to make use out of him. No other superstar is running around screens as a decoy to make Draymond a threat to screen. Klay isn't a true 2nd option he's never had a playoff run as good as other secondary options and yet we've won 2 titles with him as that. Dray on the other hand has always had another player that is all nba defense worthy on the team if not multiple.

[vvoland]

Read on Twitter

This is the defense we need. Dray still is amazing even if you dislike the person.

No blocks.
No steals.
No charges.

Just good positional defense and awareness. The only people that don't like this defense are the guys who need boxscore points for fantasy league.

Took Viray a while but he's finally saying it.. most wont anyways. But since defense is valued less (appropriately so in most cases, but not in elite cases).. Dray is to the defense what Steph is to the offense. He's so good that he can carry ineffective players on his back

Also goes to show what the defense can be... notice who's on the court. Might be worth trying these mostly defensive units out. And if we do run one of those units, GP2 doesnt always have to be a part of them. We have several guys who legitimately could be 2 way guys

I believe the numbers I heard most recently was something like "in the last 5 games, warriors defense rating w/ dray on the court is 108 and with him off the court it is 140."

We had a bottom 5 defense during dray's suspensions, etc and when he came back, we, almost immediately, became a top 5 defense. There was a slide recently but I'm willing to bet the numbers post Jan 1 (or thereabouts) would say that dray is absolutely capable of dragging a bunch of mediocre or poor defenders on his back.

[CDM_Stats]

The Utah jazz were a top 5 defense with absolutely no one else on the team being anywhere near an elite defender.

Joe Ingles was.. Derrick Favors, Dante Exum, George Hill, Ricky Rubio, and a host of other quality defenders were with him. And it didnt hurt that they were the slowest paced team in the league, which skews defensive stats despite normalizing/regularizing metrics

I guess it depends on what you consider bad. Teams don't guard draymond at all, but Steph is able to make use out of him. No other superstar is running around screens as a decoy to make Draymond a threat to screen. Klay isn't a true 2nd option he's never had a playoff run as good as other secondary options and yet we've won 2 titles with him as that. Dray on the other hand has always had another player that is all nba defense worthy on the team if not multiple.

Prime Klay would be a #1 scoring option on most teams.. and Dray might not be as effective on offense without Curry, kinda like how Curry wouldnt be as effective on defense if the team literally didnt make up a scheme to hide him. But 30 teams can use a PF/C player who can initiate an offense and create just from a standstill passing.

And if were talking about elevation, how do Andrew Wiggins' metrics look without Draymond? Warriors have one elite defender independent of Draymond and its GP2 (not anymore, but was). And he was a backup. Klay was a heavy minutes starter, as was Poole when he subbed for Klay. But Poole would be the best example for Curry's impact. It just so happens he's also a great example for the case for Dray

[Onus]

The Utah jazz were a top 5 defense with absolutely no one else on the team being anywhere near an elite defender.

Joe Ingles was.. Derrick Favors, Dante Exum, George Hill, Ricky Rubio, and a host of other quality defenders were with him. And it didnt hurt that they were the slowest paced team in the league, which skews defensive stats despite normalizing/regularizing metrics

Quality defenders sure. Elite defenders though not really. Like Iguodala was elite, Bogut was elite, Wiggins is elite, GP2 was elite.

Prime Klay would be a #1 scoring option on most teams..

On most lottery teams sure. Not on any contending team. The last 2nd option that won a title that Klay had a better playoff run than was probably Pascal Siakam. Before that Parker or Kawhi?

and Dray might not be as effective on offense without Curry, kinda like how Curry wouldnt be as effective on defense if the team literally didnt make up a scheme to hide him. But 30 teams can use a PF/C player who can initiate an offense and create just from a standstill passing.

I think a lot of teams would be able to effectively hide a single player on defense for the most part. Especially if you're able to play 3 all nba level defenders.
Passing from a big is important and does unlock some things. Agreed.

And if were talking about elevation, how do Andrew Wiggins' metrics look without Draymond? Warriors have one elite defender independent of Draymond and its GP2 (not anymore, but was). And he was a backup. Klay was a heavy minutes starter, as was Poole when he subbed for Klay. But Poole would be the best example for Curry's impact. It just so happens he's also a great example for the case for Dray

Yea no doubt Dray enhances people on defense and can elevate them. He's a great defensive player one of the best. I just think Dray is like a tier or half tier below AD or Gobert. He has more help than the other 2 on defense. Dray is amazing, he just has more help on that end than Curry does on offense.

[CDM_Stats]

Quality defenders sure. Elite defenders though not really. Like Iguodala was elite, Bogut was elite, Wiggins is elite, GP2 was elite.

Again I ask - is Wiggins elite without Draymond? Because without him he's actually been average, like he was with the Wolves. Dray is literally what made (makes?) him elite

Yea no doubt Dray enhances people on defense and can elevate them. He's a great defensive player one of the best. I just think Dray is like a tier or half tier below AD or Gobert. He has more help than the other 2 on defense. Dray is amazing, he just has more help on that end than Curry does on offense.

AD fine, because he actually is an elite defender. Gobert is an elite rim protector. Thats all though, as he has had just as good defenders as Draymond did (actually, much better) in 2022, and does not make others better like AD and Dray have done. Its not even close, frankly. Some people elevate, some people just are. AD and Dray elevate because they can play anywhere on the court and have insanely high BBIQ. Gobert is just really adept at changing shots that are near him, and a lot of centers bring 3/4 of the impact he does

But again, saying that Dray has more help than Curry is just a bad narrative. Isn't true. Can believe it or not, but Curry has had an elite shooter in his pocket for nearly his entire career. 2, when KD arrived. Dray has had 2 elite defenders in his career - Bogut and Iguodala - and one bench defender in GP2. And thats it.. Bogut was gone 7 years ago and prime Iguodala left 5 years ago. And in 2022 the Warriors had the best defense in the league led by Draymond, an bench defender, and an average defender who was made to be elite. And thats not diving into the impact he has on Klay, Poole, Curry, and especially Looney. If you give Steph the equivalent of that offensively, you think he could turn that into the #1 offense in the league?

[vvoland]

solid win! the wings played great and it was fun to see!

It's crazy to me what an average game from wiggins does to this team and how so many posters on this board seem to ignore it/blame others. While Kerr's rotations, Klay's shot selection and defensive effort, and our 4th quarter struggles have all played a role, the wiggins thing seems like the key to the season. Whenever he plays with effort, this team looks like a top 5 team in the league. When he doesn't, everyone else needs to play at an elite level to win.

Take last night for example. Awful CP3 game, podz was poor, Curry was not good by his own lofty standards. Dray couldn't score (but was amazing on defense) and GP2 was pretty poor. Wiggins, however, came to play with effort and was pretty good. Not exactly 2022 wigs or even the wigs that plays with real desire against the T-Wolves most nights (just not this season). He was just pretty decent. 17 and 7 with good defensive effort turned this team (especially in the 2nd half) into a dominant defensive unit.

Yes, Miami was missing some key players, particularly the engines of their offense. That said, they put up 121 in a 37pt blowout of Cleveland two nights prior (with Jimmy but not Bam) so they're not exactly the washington generals.

I don't know what motivates wiggins and, apparently, neither does Kerr or anyone else in the NBA. If someone were to identify that, this team really might reclaim some prior heights.

[vvoland]

The Utah jazz were a top 5 defense with absolutely no one else on the team being anywhere near an elite defender.

Joe Ingles was.. Derrick Favors, Dante Exum, George Hill, Ricky Rubio, and a host of other quality defenders were with him. And it didnt hurt that they were the slowest paced team in the league, which skews defensive stats despite normalizing/regularizing metrics

Quality defenders sure. Elite defenders though not really. Like Iguodala was elite, Bogut was elite, Wiggins is elite, GP2 was elite.

Prime Klay would be a #1 scoring option on most teams..

On most lottery teams sure. Not on any contending team. The last 2nd option that won a title that Klay had a better playoff run than was probably Pascal Siakam. Before that Parker or Kawhi?

and Dray might not be as effective on offense without Curry, kinda like how Curry wouldnt be as effective on defense if the team literally didnt make up a scheme to hide him. But 30 teams can use a PF/C player who can initiate an offense and create just from a standstill passing.

I think a lot of teams would be able to effectively hide a single player on defense for the most part. Especially if you're able to play 3 all nba level defenders.
Passing from a big is important and does unlock some things. Agreed.

And if were talking about elevation, how do Andrew Wiggins' metrics look without Draymond? Warriors have one elite defender independent of Draymond and its GP2 (not anymore, but was). And he was a backup. Klay was a heavy minutes starter, as was Poole when he subbed for Klay. But Poole would be the best example for Curry's impact. It just so happens he's also a great example for the case for Dray

Yea no doubt Dray enhances people on defense and can elevate them. He's a great defensive player one of the best. I just think Dray is like a tier or half tier below AD or Gobert. He has more help than the other 2 on defense. Dray is amazing, he just has more help on that end than Curry does on offense.

I really don't get the Gobert love. He is a one dimensional defender that, in a switch heavy league, can't really switch. He has to be in a drop on the perimeter or just parked at the rim. He is pretty great at rim protection and rebounding but other than that, I'm not seeing this generational defender that everyone else talks about. Considering he's about the win his 4th (?) DPOY which is more than AD and Dray combined, I'm flabbergasted at the love this guy gets. Here's hoping Wemby was right and after this season, it ain't gobert's time no more.

[Onus]

Quality defenders sure. Elite defenders though not really. Like Iguodala was elite, Bogut was elite, Wiggins is elite, GP2 was elite.

Again I ask - is Wiggins elite without Draymond? Because without him he's actually been average, like he was with the Wolves. Dray is literally what made (makes?) him elite

The others were elite without Dray. Dray making Wiggins elite ok sure doesn't but Wiggins is still talented defensively.

AD fine, because he actually is an elite defender. Gobert is an elite rim protector. Thats all though, as he has had just as good defenders as Draymond did (actually, much better) in 2022, and does not make others better like AD and Dray have done. Its not even close, frankly. Some people elevate, some people just are. AD and Dray elevate because they can play anywhere on the court and have insanely high BBIQ. Gobert is just really adept at changing shots that are near him, and a lot of centers bring 3/4 of the impact he does

We'll see what happens in the playoffs this year, but I dont blame Gobert for Utah flaming out when Utah was getting walked to the rim with no one else even rotating.

But again, saying that Dray has more help than Curry is just a bad narrative. Isn't true. Can believe it or not, but Curry has had an elite shooter in his pocket for nearly his entire career. 2, when KD arrived. Dray has had 2 elite defenders in his career - Bogut and Iguodala - and one bench defender in GP2. And thats it.. Bogut was gone 7 years ago and prime Iguodala left 5 years ago. And in 2022 the Warriors had the best defense in the league led by Draymond, an bench defender, and an average defender who was made to be elite. And thats not diving into the impact he has on Klay, Poole, Curry, and especially Looney. If you give Steph the equivalent of that offensively, you think he could turn that into the #1 offense in the league?

Absolutely. We play with 2 shooters and then an avg shooter and no other shooting or scoring threat. That is the least amount of shooting across the league. We've played without any interior threat or vertical threat. We have the least amount of offensive threats on the floor. We got a 2nd option in kd and it wasn't fair, people don't even want to count those seasons. I maintain 2022 was the first year we actually had multiple shooting threats and scoring threats outside of the kd years, but probably had more depth of scoring and shooting than those years and Steph was unstoppable. And still didn't need a legit 2nd option.