Game 71: Warriors @ Heat 4:30pm PDT

[Onus]

Joe Ingles was.. Derrick Favors, Dante Exum, George Hill, Ricky Rubio, and a host of other quality defenders were with him. And it didnt hurt that they were the slowest paced team in the league, which skews defensive stats despite normalizing/regularizing metrics

Quality defenders sure. Elite defenders though not really. Like Iguodala was elite, Bogut was elite, Wiggins is elite, GP2 was elite.

Prime Klay would be a #1 scoring option on most teams..

On most lottery teams sure. Not on any contending team. The last 2nd option that won a title that Klay had a better playoff run than was probably Pascal Siakam. Before that Parker or Kawhi?

and Dray might not be as effective on offense without Curry, kinda like how Curry wouldnt be as effective on defense if the team literally didnt make up a scheme to hide him. But 30 teams can use a PF/C player who can initiate an offense and create just from a standstill passing.

I think a lot of teams would be able to effectively hide a single player on defense for the most part. Especially if you're able to play 3 all nba level defenders.
Passing from a big is important and does unlock some things. Agreed.

And if were talking about elevation, how do Andrew Wiggins' metrics look without Draymond? Warriors have one elite defender independent of Draymond and its GP2 (not anymore, but was). And he was a backup. Klay was a heavy minutes starter, as was Poole when he subbed for Klay. But Poole would be the best example for Curry's impact. It just so happens he's also a great example for the case for Dray

Yea no doubt Dray enhances people on defense and can elevate them. He's a great defensive player one of the best. I just think Dray is like a tier or half tier below AD or Gobert. He has more help than the other 2 on defense. Dray is amazing, he just has more help on that end than Curry does on offense.

I really don't get the Gobert love. He is a one dimensional defender that, in a switch heavy league, can't really switch. He has to be in a drop on the perimeter or just parked at the rim. He is pretty great at rim protection and rebounding but other than that, I'm not seeing this generational defender that everyone else talks about. Considering he's about the win his 4th (?) DPOY which is more than AD and Dray combined, I'm flabbergasted at the love this guy gets. Here's hoping Wemby was right and after this season, it ain't gobert's time no more.

But he can somewhat switch. It's just not the best use of his talents if he's outside on the perimeter. He's constantly leading his team to elite defenses without elite talent around him. He's turned Mcdaniels into an elite perimeter defender, he's helped turn around KAT and Edwards. ANT still isn't great off ball but he cleans up so many mistakes by just being big and mobile. I mean I get it, his skillset isn't sexy. It seems like he's just tall and doesn't really even require basketball talent. But his awareness, size, and mobility make things difficult on defense. It's just the nature of the game. I mean didn't he get the no 1 seed with the Jazz? Now he's vying for the no 1 seed with the Wolves. The results speak for themselves.

Wemby is going to be a generational defender just based off of his physical attributes. I mean as a rookie he's already dominating the stat sheet and it's all basically just physical tools because he's tall, long and mobile. Wemby is taking it to another level. Wemby seriously has GOAT of all GOATs potential.

[Crazy-Canuck]

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Nothing is changing.

[vvoland]

Quality defenders sure. Elite defenders though not really. Like Iguodala was elite, Bogut was elite, Wiggins is elite, GP2 was elite.



On most lottery teams sure. Not on any contending team. The last 2nd option that won a title that Klay had a better playoff run than was probably Pascal Siakam. Before that Parker or Kawhi?


I think a lot of teams would be able to effectively hide a single player on defense for the most part. Especially if you're able to play 3 all nba level defenders.
Passing from a big is important and does unlock some things. Agreed.


Yea no doubt Dray enhances people on defense and can elevate them. He's a great defensive player one of the best. I just think Dray is like a tier or half tier below AD or Gobert. He has more help than the other 2 on defense. Dray is amazing, he just has more help on that end than Curry does on offense.

I really don't get the Gobert love. He is a one dimensional defender that, in a switch heavy league, can't really switch. He has to be in a drop on the perimeter or just parked at the rim. He is pretty great at rim protection and rebounding but other than that, I'm not seeing this generational defender that everyone else talks about. Considering he's about the win his 4th (?) DPOY which is more than AD and Dray combined, I'm flabbergasted at the love this guy gets. Here's hoping Wemby was right and after this season, it ain't gobert's time no more.

But he can somewhat switch. It's just not the best use of his talents if he's outside on the perimeter. He's constantly leading his team to elite defenses without elite talent around him. He's turned Mcdaniels into an elite perimeter defender, he's helped turn around KAT and Edwards. ANT still isn't great off ball but he cleans up so many mistakes by just being big and mobile. I mean I get it, his skillset isn't sexy. It seems like he's just tall and doesn't really even require basketball talent. But his awareness, size, and mobility make things difficult on defense. It's just the nature of the game. I mean didn't he get the no 1 seed with the Jazz? Now he's vying for the no 1 seed with the Wolves. The results speak for themselves.

Wemby is going to be a generational defender just based off of his physical attributes. I mean as a rookie he's already dominating the stat sheet and it's all basically just physical tools because he's tall, long and mobile. Wemby is taking it to another level. Wemby seriously has GOAT of all GOATs potential.

That's giving gobert a lot of credit. He didn't get the no1 seed either time. IF I had to single out one player that "got the no 1 seed" with the Jazz, I would pick Mitchell, not Gobert. Much like this year, I'm going with Ant. McDaniels was one of the better wing defenders in the league, despite being very young, before Gobert got there. Ant is turning into a very good on-ball defender and giving Rudy the credit seems like.... a reach. Credit goes to Ant, the coaching staff, etc. KAT? Still pretty atrocious and the fact Minny hasn't taken a step back with KAT hurt and Naz playing in his place probably says something.

I don't know if I would say he can "somewhat switch"... I think he'll get abused in the playoffs by quicker backcourt players and if it's the dubs, Curry might play him off the court in stretches.

[Onus]

I really don't get the Gobert love. He is a one dimensional defender that, in a switch heavy league, can't really switch. He has to be in a drop on the perimeter or just parked at the rim. He is pretty great at rim protection and rebounding but other than that, I'm not seeing this generational defender that everyone else talks about. Considering he's about the win his 4th (?) DPOY which is more than AD and Dray combined, I'm flabbergasted at the love this guy gets. Here's hoping Wemby was right and after this season, it ain't gobert's time no more.

But he can somewhat switch. It's just not the best use of his talents if he's outside on the perimeter. He's constantly leading his team to elite defenses without elite talent around him. He's turned Mcdaniels into an elite perimeter defender, he's helped turn around KAT and Edwards. ANT still isn't great off ball but he cleans up so many mistakes by just being big and mobile. I mean I get it, his skillset isn't sexy. It seems like he's just tall and doesn't really even require basketball talent. But his awareness, size, and mobility make things difficult on defense. It's just the nature of the game. I mean didn't he get the no 1 seed with the Jazz? Now he's vying for the no 1 seed with the Wolves. The results speak for themselves.

Wemby is going to be a generational defender just based off of his physical attributes. I mean as a rookie he's already dominating the stat sheet and it's all basically just physical tools because he's tall, long and mobile. Wemby is taking it to another level. Wemby seriously has GOAT of all GOATs potential.

That's giving gobert a lot of credit. He didn't get the no1 seed either time. IF I had to single out one player that "got the no 1 seed" with the Jazz, I would pick Mitchell, not Gobert. Much like this year, I'm going with Ant. McDaniels was one of the better wing defenders in the league, despite being very young, before Gobert got there. Ant is turning into a very good on-ball defender and giving Rudy the credit seems like.... a reach. Credit goes to Ant, the coaching staff, etc. KAT? Still pretty atrocious and the fact Minny hasn't taken a step back with KAT hurt and Naz playing in his place probably says something.

I don't know if I would say he can "somewhat switch"... I think he'll get abused in the playoffs by quicker backcourt players and if it's the dubs, Curry might play him off the court in stretches.

Have you looked at the on/off numbers for those jazz teams? That was a Gobert carry job. Dmitch was just a long for the ride. They had a bunch of offensive only players that spaced the floor for him.

Before Gobert the Wolves were fighting for the 8th seed. Trying to find a defensive identity. People were saying KAT aint it until he learns to play defense. Insert Gobert defense is fixed. Took them a year and some health to figure out what they wanted to do, but now they're vying for the no 1 seed. No other real noticeable changes.

Mcdaniels is talented as is ANT. They're both very athletic and have tools to make them good defenders. But being able to just funnel everything in the middle to Gobert makes their job a lot easier. It's not a coincidence that everywhere Gobert goes they end up having a top defense when he's healthy.

We'll see what happens this year in the playoffs. I dont blame the loss to the clippers when he was on the jazz on gobert. And Denver last year was just insanely good. The Wolves have a good chance to get to the 2nd rd this year. If they don't and Gobert gets exposed defensively we can bring this back up. Gobert does get exposed offensively though.

[vvoland]

But he can somewhat switch. It's just not the best use of his talents if he's outside on the perimeter. He's constantly leading his team to elite defenses without elite talent around him. He's turned Mcdaniels into an elite perimeter defender, he's helped turn around KAT and Edwards. ANT still isn't great off ball but he cleans up so many mistakes by just being big and mobile. I mean I get it, his skillset isn't sexy. It seems like he's just tall and doesn't really even require basketball talent. But his awareness, size, and mobility make things difficult on defense. It's just the nature of the game. I mean didn't he get the no 1 seed with the Jazz? Now he's vying for the no 1 seed with the Wolves. The results speak for themselves.

Wemby is going to be a generational defender just based off of his physical attributes. I mean as a rookie he's already dominating the stat sheet and it's all basically just physical tools because he's tall, long and mobile. Wemby is taking it to another level. Wemby seriously has GOAT of all GOATs potential.

That's giving gobert a lot of credit. He didn't get the no1 seed either time. IF I had to single out one player that "got the no 1 seed" with the Jazz, I would pick Mitchell, not Gobert. Much like this year, I'm going with Ant. McDaniels was one of the better wing defenders in the league, despite being very young, before Gobert got there. Ant is turning into a very good on-ball defender and giving Rudy the credit seems like.... a reach. Credit goes to Ant, the coaching staff, etc. KAT? Still pretty atrocious and the fact Minny hasn't taken a step back with KAT hurt and Naz playing in his place probably says something.

I don't know if I would say he can "somewhat switch"... I think he'll get abused in the playoffs by quicker backcourt players and if it's the dubs, Curry might play him off the court in stretches.

Have you looked at the on/off numbers for those jazz teams? That was a Gobert carry job. Dmitch was just a long for the ride. They had a bunch of offensive only players that spaced the floor for him.

Before Gobert the Wolves were fighting for the 8th seed. Trying to find a defensive identity. People were saying KAT aint it until he learns to play defense. Insert Gobert defense is fixed. Took them a year and some health to figure out what they wanted to do, but now they're vying for the no 1 seed. No other real noticeable changes.

Mcdaniels is talented as is ANT. They're both very athletic and have tools to make them good defenders. But being able to just funnel everything in the middle to Gobert makes their job a lot easier. It's not a coincidence that everywhere Gobert goes they end up having a top defense when he's healthy.

We'll see what happens this year in the playoffs. I dont blame the loss to the clippers when he was on the jazz on gobert. And Denver last year was just insanely good. The Wolves have a good chance to get to the 2nd rd this year. If they don't and Gobert gets exposed defensively we can bring this back up. Gobert does get exposed offensively though.

Spyda was just along for the ride? That's just revisionist history. Mitchell carried that team offensively as much as Rudy did on defense. You have to score points to win, great defense isn't enough on it's own. Mitchell was also a decent perimeter defender, as was most of that team.

The story that Rudy was carrying some ymca players to the league's best defense is just not true. Conley, Royce O'neal, Dante Exum, Bogdanovic, Niang, and Ingles were, at that time, average to above average team defenders.

By the way, I'm not saying Rudy is trash or whatever. He is about to tie mutombo and ben wallace if he wins DPOY this year and I don't think he's anywhere near those guys. Dwight was better and Dray, with his one DPOY, is the better defensive player - by a mile.

The question with Rudy isn't IF he will get exposed in the playoffs. It's 'when' and 'by whom'. If they play the dubs in the first round, it'll be 'then' and 'steph.' The wolves may still win, but I don't think he'll look like the DPOY, much less like the guy that won 4 of them. It happens every year, check the numbers or the film, they'll both say the same thing.

[Onus]

Spyda was just along for the ride? That's just revisionist history. Mitchell carried that team offensively as much as Rudy did on defense. You have to score points to win, great defense isn't enough on it's own. Mitchell was also a decent perimeter defender, as was most of that team.

along for the ride is over top. Yes DMitch is a good player, but there was a massive gap in the impact stats between the Gobert and Mitch. I'd say Mitch was (a much worse) Dray and Gobert was Curry in this instance. Mitch had much more help on offense than Gobert did defensively.

The story that Rudy was carrying some ymca players to the league's best defense is just not true. Conley, Royce O'neal, Dante Exum, Bogdanovic, Niang, and Ingles were, at that time, average to above average team defenders.

Yes none of these players are elite defensively and yet they were elite defensively. Like none of these guys are like they should make all nba defensive teams on their own. These guys are all much more well known for offense and shooting than they are for defense.

By the way, I'm not saying Rudy is trash or whatever. He is about to tie mutombo and ben wallace if he wins DPOY this year and I don't think he's anywhere near those guys. Dwight was better and Dray, with his one DPOY, is the better defensive player - by a mile.

The question with Rudy isn't IF he will get exposed in the playoffs. It's 'when' and 'by whom'. If they play the dubs in the first round, it'll be 'then' and 'steph.' The wolves may still win, but I don't think he'll look like the DPOY, much less like the guy that won 4 of them. It happens every year, check the numbers or the film, they'll both say the same thing.

Didn't dwight win like 3 straight dpoy? AD should get one but he's' been street clothes for too long. Blame it on his competition that Rudy has made this his annual trophy. Maybe teams should try to make shots on Rudy in the regular season.

I don't think Gobert has been exposed in the playoffs. His teams have been exposed by their lack of talent on defense. Teams have been able to scheme his defensive impact and pick on other players forcing him to guard the rim and then no one else rotating to his initial man. But that's not on Gobert. Gobert's biggest downfall is that he's unable to punish teams for going small against him offensively.

[vvoland]

Spyda was just along for the ride? That's just revisionist history. Mitchell carried that team offensively as much as Rudy did on defense. You have to score points to win, great defense isn't enough on it's own. Mitchell was also a decent perimeter defender, as was most of that team.

along for the ride is over top. Yes DMitch is a good player, but there was a massive gap in the impact stats between the Gobert and Mitch. I'd say Mitch was (a much worse) Dray and Gobert was Curry in this instance. Mitch had much more help on offense than Gobert did defensively.

The story that Rudy was carrying some ymca players to the league's best defense is just not true. Conley, Royce O'neal, Dante Exum, Bogdanovic, Niang, and Ingles were, at that time, average to above average team defenders.

Yes none of these players are elite defensively and yet they were elite defensively. Like none of these guys are like they should make all nba defensive teams on their own. These guys are all much more well known for offense and shooting than they are for defense.

By the way, I'm not saying Rudy is trash or whatever. He is about to tie mutombo and ben wallace if he wins DPOY this year and I don't think he's anywhere near those guys. Dwight was better and Dray, with his one DPOY, is the better defensive player - by a mile.

The question with Rudy isn't IF he will get exposed in the playoffs. It's 'when' and 'by whom'. If they play the dubs in the first round, it'll be 'then' and 'steph.' The wolves may still win, but I don't think he'll look like the DPOY, much less like the guy that won 4 of them. It happens every year, check the numbers or the film, they'll both say the same thing.

Didn't dwight win like 3 straight dpoy? AD should get one but he's' been street clothes for too long. Blame it on his competition that Rudy has made this his annual trophy. Maybe teams should try to make shots on Rudy in the regular season.

I don't think Gobert has been exposed in the playoffs. His teams have been exposed by their lack of talent on defense. Teams have been able to scheme his defensive impact and pick on other players forcing him to guard the rim and then no one else rotating to his initial man. But that's not on Gobert. Gobert's biggest downfall is that he's unable to punish teams for going small against him offensively.

His teams get exposed because the opponent pulls Gobert out to the perimeter where he can't hang with guards and isn't mobile enough to get back and protect the rim. It's not like they would pick on mike conley and kill him with the midrange while gobert is hanging out near the paint. It's the opposite. Teams isolate Gobert 25 ft from the rim and go to work. It's really not that hard.

If I'm building a playoff defense and need a center I'm picking Bam, Dray, Wemby, AD and Embiid over Gobert every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

[Onus]

Spyda was just along for the ride? That's just revisionist history. Mitchell carried that team offensively as much as Rudy did on defense. You have to score points to win, great defense isn't enough on it's own. Mitchell was also a decent perimeter defender, as was most of that team.

along for the ride is over top. Yes DMitch is a good player, but there was a massive gap in the impact stats between the Gobert and Mitch. I'd say Mitch was (a much worse) Dray and Gobert was Curry in this instance. Mitch had much more help on offense than Gobert did defensively.

The story that Rudy was carrying some ymca players to the league's best defense is just not true. Conley, Royce O'neal, Dante Exum, Bogdanovic, Niang, and Ingles were, at that time, average to above average team defenders.

Yes none of these players are elite defensively and yet they were elite defensively. Like none of these guys are like they should make all nba defensive teams on their own. These guys are all much more well known for offense and shooting than they are for defense.

By the way, I'm not saying Rudy is trash or whatever. He is about to tie mutombo and ben wallace if he wins DPOY this year and I don't think he's anywhere near those guys. Dwight was better and Dray, with his one DPOY, is the better defensive player - by a mile.

The question with Rudy isn't IF he will get exposed in the playoffs. It's 'when' and 'by whom'. If they play the dubs in the first round, it'll be 'then' and 'steph.' The wolves may still win, but I don't think he'll look like the DPOY, much less like the guy that won 4 of them. It happens every year, check the numbers or the film, they'll both say the same thing.

Didn't dwight win like 3 straight dpoy? AD should get one but he's' been street clothes for too long. Blame it on his competition that Rudy has made this his annual trophy. Maybe teams should try to make shots on Rudy in the regular season.

I don't think Gobert has been exposed in the playoffs. His teams have been exposed by their lack of talent on defense. Teams have been able to scheme his defensive impact and pick on other players forcing him to guard the rim and then no one else rotating to his initial man. But that's not on Gobert. Gobert's biggest downfall is that he's unable to punish teams for going small against him offensively.

His teams get exposed because the opponent pulls Gobert out to the perimeter where he can't hang with guards and isn't mobile enough to get back and protect the rim. It's not like they would pick on mike conley and kill him with the midrange while gobert is hanging out near the paint. It's the opposite. Teams isolate Gobert 25 ft from the rim and go to work. It's really not that hard.

If I'm building a playoff defense and need a center I'm picking Bam, Dray, Wemby, AD and Embiid over Gobert every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

They aren't isolating on gobert. What?!? They're isolating on Bojan, Royce, Niang, Ingles and parked whoever Gobert was guarding in the corner. Gobert would then rotate to help them out since they were being dog walked to the rim and then no one would cover Gobert's guy. That's not on Gobert.

[vvoland]

along for the ride is over top. Yes DMitch is a good player, but there was a massive gap in the impact stats between the Gobert and Mitch. I'd say Mitch was (a much worse) Dray and Gobert was Curry in this instance. Mitch had much more help on offense than Gobert did defensively.


Yes none of these players are elite defensively and yet they were elite defensively. Like none of these guys are like they should make all nba defensive teams on their own. These guys are all much more well known for offense and shooting than they are for defense.

Didn't dwight win like 3 straight dpoy? AD should get one but he's' been street clothes for too long. Blame it on his competition that Rudy has made this his annual trophy. Maybe teams should try to make shots on Rudy in the regular season.

I don't think Gobert has been exposed in the playoffs. His teams have been exposed by their lack of talent on defense. Teams have been able to scheme his defensive impact and pick on other players forcing him to guard the rim and then no one else rotating to his initial man. But that's not on Gobert. Gobert's biggest downfall is that he's unable to punish teams for going small against him offensively.

His teams get exposed because the opponent pulls Gobert out to the perimeter where he can't hang with guards and isn't mobile enough to get back and protect the rim. It's not like they would pick on mike conley and kill him with the midrange while gobert is hanging out near the paint. It's the opposite. Teams isolate Gobert 25 ft from the rim and go to work. It's really not that hard.

If I'm building a playoff defense and need a center I'm picking Bam, Dray, Wemby, AD and Embiid over Gobert every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

They aren't isolating on gobert. What?!? They're isolating on Bojan, Royce, Niang, Ingles and parked whoever Gobert was guarding in the corner. Gobert would then rotate to help them out since they were being dog walked to the rim and then no one would cover Gobert's guy. That's not on Gobert.

Are you saying Gobert led defenses got beat by corner shooters that Rudy was guarding and rotating off of? That's not how I remember it but there's a good chance we get to see the dubs vs gobert this time around. I really hope you're right and rudy is gonna guard Klay and rotate off him to help at the rim because I doubt we put Loon, TJD or Dray in the corner and expect Rudy to guard them there.

[CDM_Stats]

The others were elite without Dray. Dray making Wiggins elite ok sure doesn't but Wiggins is still talented defensively.

Exactly my point - Wiggins had talent. He didnt make an impact. Dray makes him make a significant impact. He elevates a guy from being average to being very impactful. He's done that with Looney as well. And he's also anchored the #1 defense while having huge negatives - and thats not to be confused with people who are limited, which is what Curry has - in Curry, Klay and Poole. Even guys like Nemo, OPJ and GP2 had peak seasons, and in those peak seasons, peaked highest with Draymond. And not just in basic metrics, I mean individual metrics - things that actually have weight

Absolutely. We play with 2 shooters and then an avg shooter and no other shooting or scoring threat. That is the least amount of shooting across the league. We've played without any interior threat or vertical threat. We have the least amount of offensive threats on the floor. We got a 2nd option in kd and it wasn't fair, people don't even want to count those seasons. I maintain 2022 was the first year we actually had multiple shooting threats and scoring threats outside of the kd years, but probably had more depth of scoring and shooting than those years and Steph was unstoppable. And still didn't need a legit 2nd option.

So there wasn't balance.. kinda like how Dray didnt have a C in 22? Or hardly any perimeter defense? Ill be 100% clear - Steph couldn't. And its not a knock on Steph, its just how the game works. If he had 2 large net negative players and he could make them part of the leagues best offense, he'd be a god. Because thats exactly what he had the year before with guys like Oubre and Wiseman. Who offensively equates to guys like Curry, Poole, and Klay defensively? Because even guys like Looney can set screens and OREB... Dray can't score well but he can facilitate, screen, pass from the high post. They are cogs, not scorers, but they are helpful. Were Curry/Poole/Klay helpful defensively? Or hurtful?

[Onus]

His teams get exposed because the opponent pulls Gobert out to the perimeter where he can't hang with guards and isn't mobile enough to get back and protect the rim. It's not like they would pick on mike conley and kill him with the midrange while gobert is hanging out near the paint. It's the opposite. Teams isolate Gobert 25 ft from the rim and go to work. It's really not that hard.

If I'm building a playoff defense and need a center I'm picking Bam, Dray, Wemby, AD and Embiid over Gobert every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

They aren't isolating on gobert. What?!? They're isolating on Bojan, Royce, Niang, Ingles and parked whoever Gobert was guarding in the corner. Gobert would then rotate to help them out since they were being dog walked to the rim and then no one would cover Gobert's guy. That's not on Gobert.

Are you saying Gobert led defenses got beat by corner shooters that Rudy was guarding and rotating off of? That's not how I remember it but there's a good chance we get to see the dubs vs gobert this time around. I really hope you're right and rudy is gonna guard Klay and rotate off him to help at the rim because I doubt we put Loon, TJD or Dray in the corner and expect Rudy to guard them there.

He's going to guard dray or jk and just meet them at the rim.

But yes he was guarding terrence mann rotating off of him and no one would rotate to terrence mann and man had 40 +.

[Onus]

The others were elite without Dray. Dray making Wiggins elite ok sure doesn't but Wiggins is still talented defensively.

Exactly my point - Wiggins had talent. He didnt make an impact. Dray makes him make a significant impact. He elevates a guy from being average to being very impactful. He's done that with Looney as well. And he's also anchored the #1 defense while having huge negatives - and thats not to be confused with people who are limited, which is what Curry has - in Curry, Klay and Poole. Even guys like Nemo, OPJ and GP2 had peak seasons, and in those peak seasons, peaked highest with Draymond. And not just in basic metrics, I mean individual metrics - things that actually have weight

I mean we've seen when Klay is a real negative there's nothing Draymond is capable of doing to stop that. We've seen when Wiseman is a real negative there's nothing Draymond is capable of doing to stop that, etc, etc. He can't turn around someone who is a huge negative on defense. He can help limited players.

Absolutely. We play with 2 shooters and then an avg shooter and no other shooting or scoring threat. That is the least amount of shooting across the league. We've played without any interior threat or vertical threat. We have the least amount of offensive threats on the floor. We got a 2nd option in kd and it wasn't fair, people don't even want to count those seasons. I maintain 2022 was the first year we actually had multiple shooting threats and scoring threats outside of the kd years, but probably had more depth of scoring and shooting than those years and Steph was unstoppable. And still didn't need a legit 2nd option.

So there wasn't balance.. kinda like how Dray didnt have a C in 22? Or hardly any perimeter defense? Ill be 100% clear - Steph couldn't. And its not a knock on Steph, its just how the game works. If he had 2 large net negative players and he could make them part of the leagues best offense, he'd be a god. Because thats exactly what he had the year before with guys like Oubre and Wiseman. Who offensively equates to guys like Curry, Poole, and Klay defensively? Because even guys like Looney can set screens and OREB... Dray can't score well but he can facilitate, screen, pass from the high post. They are cogs, not scorers, but they are helpful. Were Curry/Poole/Klay helpful defensively? Or hurtful?[/quote]
Dray did have a C in 22. What is Looney? Hardly any perimeter defense? GP2, Wiggins? I mean what? Also OPJ has always been a good defender.

But Steph does do that. Dray is really limited. Looney is really limited. Looney isn't getting a contract with any other team, which is why he's so cheap.

I think you're confusing huge negatives with people unwilling or unable to play within the system, because Wiseman and Oubre were just as negative on defense and Dray isn't doing anything with them on defense either.

Are we limiting Curry/Poole/Klay to just 22? Because we've seen Curry, Klay and Poole be cogs in a top rated defense. But at their worst, Dray isn't solving that issue. Once they give up and are complete negatives there's nothing dray is doing but pouting and throwing his hands up.

[CDM_Stats]

I mean we've seen when Klay is a real negative there's nothing Draymond is capable of doing to stop that. We've seen when Wiseman is a real negative there's nothing Draymond is capable of doing to stop that, etc, etc. He can't turn around someone who is a huge negative on defense. He can help limited players.

Klay was starting on the #1 defense 2 years ago, and only playing marginally better than he is right now. He didnt make Klay himself better, he was the anchor of the #1 defense in the league despite Klay. Curry cannot do that with the offense. And thats because of how the game works, but its still a fact. Yet only one gets the credit for carrying everyone's water

Dray did have a C in 22. What is Looney? Hardly any perimeter defense? GP2, Wiggins? I mean what? Also OPJ has always been a good defender.

Looney has been an undersized C, Nemo was used as C, OPJ was used as C. GP2 was the lone actual perimeter defender as Wiggins bounced everywhere. Leaving the majority of perimeter work to Curry, Klay, and Poole, who also got way more minutes than the rest. OPJ was a good man defender literally 6 years prior to him joining the Warriors. He was OK at it here, but where he was helpful was help defense. And he was never helpful in help defense anywhere else.

But Steph does do that. Dray is really limited. Looney is really limited. Looney isn't getting a contract with any other team, which is why he's so cheap.

STEPH NEVER TURNED THOSE PLAYERS INTO THE #1 OFFENSE. I'm just bored of this at this point, if you dont get it, you dont get it, I'm moving on. Dray, despite who he is personally, deserves the same credit Curry gets for elevating the people around him offensively. He won't get it, but he should. Thats all

[WarriorGM]

I mean we've seen when Klay is a real negative there's nothing Draymond is capable of doing to stop that. We've seen when Wiseman is a real negative there's nothing Draymond is capable of doing to stop that, etc, etc. He can't turn around someone who is a huge negative on defense. He can help limited players.

Klay was starting on the #1 defense 2 years ago, and only playing marginally better than he is right now. He didnt make Klay himself better, he was the anchor of the #1 defense in the league despite Klay. Curry cannot do that with the offense. And thats because of how the game works, but its still a fact. Yet only one gets the credit for carrying everyone's water

Dray did have a C in 22. What is Looney? Hardly any perimeter defense? GP2, Wiggins? I mean what? Also OPJ has always been a good defender.

Looney has been an undersized C, Nemo was used as C, OPJ was used as C. GP2 was the lone actual perimeter defender as Wiggins bounced everywhere. Leaving the majority of perimeter work to Curry, Klay, and Poole, who also got way more minutes than the rest. OPJ was a good man defender literally 6 years prior to him joining the Warriors. He was OK at it here, but where he was helpful was help defense. And he was never helpful in help defense anywhere else.

But Steph does do that. Dray is really limited. Looney is really limited. Looney isn't getting a contract with any other team, which is why he's so cheap.

STEPH NEVER TURNED THOSE PLAYERS INTO THE #1 OFFENSE. I'm just bored of this at this point, if you dont get it, you dont get it, I'm moving on. Dray, despite who he is personally, deserves the same credit Curry gets for elevating the people around him offensively. He won't get it, but he should. Thats all

BUT STEPH TURNED THOSE PLAYERS INTO THE #1 DEFENSE. Draymond's success is a function of Curry to a greater extent than the other way around. 2020 DefRtg: 26th. 2021 DefRtg: 5th. There's a reason Draymond has a tendency to go AWOL when Curry isn't playing.