Game 83 (9-10 play-in) Tuesday April 16 vs. Sacramento Kings

[CDM_Stats]

it's waste of cap space to have a guy suspended, out doing drive-thru therapy again

You realize that we aren’t going to be under the cap even if Drays salary just vanishes, right?

I understand, I just don't want him around anymore. I think he's a ticking time bomb.

I dont know man, the downside is almost nil here. If he gets himself suspended - oh no, we lose more games as we try and find a new #1 for the future. If he goes nuclear on a teammate (that presumably we want to keep) - oh no, he's done something that could nullify his contract

In the meantime the young guys get to reap the benefits of a guy who's extremely smart, has coached up the young players historically, and is extremely loyal to the team. I'll take that over the garbage contract of some younger guy coming in with no history and no loyalty to the franchise

[CDM_Stats]

I've also been thinking that even though JK is highly athletic, the contrast between his athleticism and that of his teammates is distorting the true picture a bit. That his athleticism is more common than we think. But since we haven't actually seen a lot of freakish athleticism since Durant left, it seems like more of a unicorn than it actually is.

I can see both the upside and downside perspectives but the last couple of months I've drifted a little more into the "it's probably never going to fully materialize" line of thinking. I could easily get sucked back in if he comes out on fire next season. Regardless, I'd want a serious player coming back in any preseason trade, not just draft picks or roster filters. Otherwise I'd be content to hold for now and monitor the progress. It's not like his value is going to drastically drop. Plenty of other teams will want to take on this risk based on what he's done this season.

Think is well thought out and I agree with almost all, but want to point out that JK really is a freakish straight-line athlete. His straight-line speed would be elite for guards. Now if we're talking overall athleticism, specifically functional strength and COD, yea it dims the lights a bit. But in terms of downhill speed and leaping, he really is a freak. Gives him a wide margin of error on a lot of things

I still wouldnt invest heavily in it because I think his limitations are tough to overcome, but it is a great selling point for MJD to work with

[vvoland]

You realize that we aren’t going to be under the cap even if Drays salary just vanishes, right?

I understand, I just don't want him around anymore. I think he's a ticking time bomb.

I dont know man, the downside is almost nil here. If he gets himself suspended - oh no, we lose more games as we try and find a new #1 for the future. If he goes nuclear on a teammate (that presumably we want to keep) - oh no, he's done something that could nullify his contract

In the meantime the young guys get to reap the benefits of a guy who's extremely smart, has coached up the young players historically, and is extremely loyal to the team. I'll take that over the garbage contract of some younger guy coming in with no history and no loyalty to the franchise

This is just spot on. We disagree on a ton but not this. Dray's negatives are massive but they are mostly negative for Dray, not the team. He may get suspended, then the contract becomes way more bearable. He may even get his contract ripped up if he assaults someone else. But his intelligence and team first approach is something I'd def want for the next 2-3 years while we coach up the kids/draft more kids.

[vvoland]

I think the circumstances matter in this case. JK's late start in well-organized basketball and his scattered playing time the first couple seasons are certainly a factor in his slow development, especially defensively.

On the flip side, JK's inherent feel for the game just isn't where it should be by now. The ball is still a little too sticky in his hands for a guy who isn't a clear #1.. Last couple months his minutes have been like watching a big time HS prospect trying to learn the team game at a top university. Which ultimately is giving me a too much of a Kelly Oubre vibe.... that feeling that there's something exceptional inside the player just waiting to be unlocked, but it's not clear that any amount of coaching can actually unlock it.

I've also been thinking that even though JK is highly athletic, the contrast between his athleticism and that of his teammates is distorting the true picture a bit. That his athleticism is more common than we think. But since we haven't actually seen a lot of freakish athleticism since Durant left, it seems like more of a unicorn than it actually is.

I can see both the upside and downside perspectives but the last couple of months I've drifted a little more into the "it's probably never going to fully materialize" line of thinking. I could easily get sucked back in if he comes out on fire next season. Regardless, I'd want a serious player coming back in any preseason trade, not just draft picks or roster filters. Otherwise I'd be content to hold for now and monitor the progress. It's not like his value is going to drastically drop. Plenty of other teams will want to take on this risk based on what he's done this season.

Just seeing how much he improved passing on the drive and his FT% just this season, I see no reason why he won't improve on most other things. Just on FTs, he went from under 70% his first 3 months to over 80% the last 4, on much higher volume.

He is an incredible vertical athlete though he's not amazing laterally. If he can develop a reliable 3pt shot (he's had it up to 40% in a few months this season, albeit on low volume) he can be an elite scorer. His points are self created, he gets the other team in foul trouble and he's improved his rebounding. Yes, his on ball defense has declined and his off-ball defense hasn't really improved. He's not a perfect player but definitely trending in the right direction.

IF he gets a steady rotation spot and a clearly defined role on this team next season, I would expect another massive jump. He went from 9ppg to 16 on 53/75/32 splits at age 21 while improving his handle and vision. I'm not giving up on that.

[CS707]

I think the circumstances matter in this case. JK's late start in well-organized basketball and his scattered playing time the first couple seasons are certainly a factor in his slow development, especially defensively.

On the flip side, JK's inherent feel for the game just isn't where it should be by now. The ball is still a little too sticky in his hands for a guy who isn't a clear #1.. Last couple months his minutes have been like watching a big time HS prospect trying to learn the team game at a top university. Which ultimately is giving me a too much of a Kelly Oubre vibe.... that feeling that there's something exceptional inside the player just waiting to be unlocked, but it's not clear that any amount of coaching can actually unlock it.

I've also been thinking that even though JK is highly athletic, the contrast between his athleticism and that of his teammates is distorting the true picture a bit. That his athleticism is more common than we think. But since we haven't actually seen a lot of freakish athleticism since Durant left, it seems like more of a unicorn than it actually is.

I can see both the upside and downside perspectives but the last couple of months I've drifted a little more into the "it's probably never going to fully materialize" line of thinking. I could easily get sucked back in if he comes out on fire next season. Regardless, I'd want a serious player coming back in any preseason trade, not just draft picks or roster filters. Otherwise I'd be content to hold for now and monitor the progress. It's not like his value is going to drastically drop. Plenty of other teams will want to take on this risk based on what he's done this season.

I don't think there's a wrong or right answer with regard to the JK developmental curve conversation but the flipside to the late start to organized basketball point is that he's been a full-time basketball player for several years now, meaning he hasn't been burdened with class schedules, NCAA practice regulations, etc. and the things he's been asked to learn have been fairly consistent in his time here. That does offset the age thing a little bit for me.

[vvoland]

I think the circumstances matter in this case. JK's late start in well-organized basketball and his scattered playing time the first couple seasons are certainly a factor in his slow development, especially defensively.

On the flip side, JK's inherent feel for the game just isn't where it should be by now. The ball is still a little too sticky in his hands for a guy who isn't a clear #1.. Last couple months his minutes have been like watching a big time HS prospect trying to learn the team game at a top university. Which ultimately is giving me a too much of a Kelly Oubre vibe.... that feeling that there's something exceptional inside the player just waiting to be unlocked, but it's not clear that any amount of coaching can actually unlock it.

I've also been thinking that even though JK is highly athletic, the contrast between his athleticism and that of his teammates is distorting the true picture a bit. That his athleticism is more common than we think. But since we haven't actually seen a lot of freakish athleticism since Durant left, it seems like more of a unicorn than it actually is.

I can see both the upside and downside perspectives but the last couple of months I've drifted a little more into the "it's probably never going to fully materialize" line of thinking. I could easily get sucked back in if he comes out on fire next season. Regardless, I'd want a serious player coming back in any preseason trade, not just draft picks or roster filters. Otherwise I'd be content to hold for now and monitor the progress. It's not like his value is going to drastically drop. Plenty of other teams will want to take on this risk based on what he's done this season.

I don't think there's a wrong or right answer with regard to the JK developmental curve conversation but the flipside to the late start to organized basketball point is that he's been a full-time basketball player for several years now, meaning he hasn't been burdened with class schedules, NCAA practice regulations, etc. and the things he's been asked to learn have been fairly consistent in his time here. That does offset the age thing a little bit for me.

I'm not so sure about this part. JK seemed like he was very confused as to what will get him on the court vs what will get him pulled. He was just out there, freestyling, and getting pulled with the quickness. It took going to Shams for him and Kerr to have multiple conversations about his role, what the team needs and how he gets to stay in the rotation or start. Since that time, his improvement has been noticeable, particularly in the areas the team needs most: FTs and Rebs. It really makes me question whether or not he had clear instructions and goals set for him in the first 2.25 years.

[CS707]

I think the circumstances matter in this case. JK's late start in well-organized basketball and his scattered playing time the first couple seasons are certainly a factor in his slow development, especially defensively.

On the flip side, JK's inherent feel for the game just isn't where it should be by now. The ball is still a little too sticky in his hands for a guy who isn't a clear #1.. Last couple months his minutes have been like watching a big time HS prospect trying to learn the team game at a top university. Which ultimately is giving me a too much of a Kelly Oubre vibe.... that feeling that there's something exceptional inside the player just waiting to be unlocked, but it's not clear that any amount of coaching can actually unlock it.

I've also been thinking that even though JK is highly athletic, the contrast between his athleticism and that of his teammates is distorting the true picture a bit. That his athleticism is more common than we think. But since we haven't actually seen a lot of freakish athleticism since Durant left, it seems like more of a unicorn than it actually is.

I can see both the upside and downside perspectives but the last couple of months I've drifted a little more into the "it's probably never going to fully materialize" line of thinking. I could easily get sucked back in if he comes out on fire next season. Regardless, I'd want a serious player coming back in any preseason trade, not just draft picks or roster filters. Otherwise I'd be content to hold for now and monitor the progress. It's not like his value is going to drastically drop. Plenty of other teams will want to take on this risk based on what he's done this season.

I don't think there's a wrong or right answer with regard to the JK developmental curve conversation but the flipside to the late start to organized basketball point is that he's been a full-time basketball player for several years now, meaning he hasn't been burdened with class schedules, NCAA practice regulations, etc. and the things he's been asked to learn have been fairly consistent in his time here. That does offset the age thing a little bit for me.

I'm not so sure about this part. JK seemed like he was very confused as to what will get him on the court vs what will get him pulled. He was just out there, freestyling, and getting pulled with the quickness. It took going to Shams for him and Kerr to have multiple conversations about his role, what the team needs and how he gets to stay in the rotation or start. Since that time, his improvement has been noticeable, particularly in the areas the team needs most: FTs and Rebs. It really makes me question whether or not he had clear instructions and goals set for him in the first 2.25 years.

The root of that confusion is the thing we won’t know any time soon and that’s why I don’t get too invested in the debate one way or the other. I suspect it’s a little of both, but I was really only speaking to the lack of development time point. At face value I feel like three years as a full time professional basketball player in the same defensive system is enough time to have a better grasp than what we often see from him.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Yup Bob is the one who screwed us with his draft picks. Just horrible drafting by him.

I’ve got to commend Bob for leaving when he knew he couldn’t do the job anymore because he was more of a friend than a gm. Now if only kerr also had some self reflection and realized he’s no longer suitable to the head coach here.

Bob’s drafts were not really horrible. The draft classes were horrible.

If I was using the number 2 pick I would draft Wiseman. Wiseman’s upside potential fit with what we needed and there was nobody but Haliburton that we could have drafted that would have helped us. 10 other teams also failed to realize that Haliburton was the 2nd best player in the draft. Bob not being exceptional does no make Bob bad.

We probably should have traded the Wiseman pick.

I might draft Kuminga again.
A couple guys were better than Moody at 14 but that is normal for a 14th pick. Moody was not a bad pick. Kuminga was not a bad pick.

Believing in 2 timelines was dumb but if we were not going to trade the Wiseman pick drafting Wiseman was not a bad pick. I failed to predict Wiseman’s downside but the draft experts who all had Wiseman in their top 4 also failed to predict Wiseman’s downside.

The wiseman draft is whatever. Terrible draft. Took a swing and missed. Whatever.

The 2021 draft though is what killed us. Not drafting Franz and Murphy or Sengun or Herb. Not getting a real rotation player (not one that whined their way into one) from that draft killed the franchise when that draft was littered with impact players drafted after us at the same exact positions that we drafted.

JK was a terrible pick especially considering Franz fits exactly into what we do and what we need. They drafted in hopes of a superstar for a 2nd timeline rather than building on the system we have in place.

Moody was fine as a 14th pick but the fact we missed out on both picks just hurts even more. Not getting a single impact player out of that draft hurts.

We could have traded the Wiseman, Kuminga and Moody picks for future draft picks and singed chep vets in the Bjelica and Porter model and that would have given a better chance at winning one more championship while the Curry window was open and would have also given us a better bunch of draft picks for our post Curry rebuild.

I have no complainst with Kuminga over Franz. I see what we were hoping for in Kuminga. Franz also was not going to win us a championship. Amazing that we won the 2022 chamionship and Poole being hot was a big part of that.

I can’t really complain about Bob. Bog may not have been the best GM but he was not a bad GM. 2 timelines was overly ambitious and may have cost us one additional championship but we were probably done after 2022 anyway even if we had a better GM and Dray did no punch Poole. Too bad we did not trade Poole in summer of 2022 when his stock was high.

What could we have got in Summer of 2022 for a Klay for salary, Looney, Payton, Moody, Kuminga, Wiseman, 2 1st round picks and Poole at peak value Package. That package would have been sexy in summer of 2022 and would have brought back a haul.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Bob’s drafts were not really horrible. The draft classes were horrible.

There's always good players in the draft. Look at what Dunleavy did with #19 and #57 (which they acquired). Look at all the bad players who were drafted ahead of Steph and Draymond. And if the Warriors find themselves in a spot where they don't like any of the players available they can always trade out.

T-wolves draft Johny Flynn and Rubio ahead of Curry, crazy. If you are drafting to point guards one of them should be Curry. I see why Rubio attracted them but what were they thinking that Flynn was going to be, a Dame Lilliard type?

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

I still see a path to be competitive, but it's through defense.

I still Dray, tjd, and wiggins as a dynamic defensive core . Steph isn't that steph anymore, but he's still one of the best. With klay and cp3 not on the books, that 75M off the books. We just need to find a SG that can help tie the team together.

We need to go back to motion offense, it's what works best with steph. You can see the disconnect when jk or cp3 were on the floor, no rhythm to the offense.

I'm of the mind that its time we no longer do the things that are best for Steph, because IMO thats no longer whats best for the Warriors

Bingo!!!

If we want to win a first round playoff series in 2025 we need to turn CP3 and stuff into a new starting off guard.
I want a defensive back up point guard and a jumbo huge 3rd string center but we don’t have to pay much for those role players.
Pay whatever is needed for our new starting off guard.
Keep Kay around as a bench chucker.

My goal is not a championship or a rebuild. I just want a respectable team for Curry’s last 3 years. A team that can win a first round playoff series before losing in the 2nd round.

[KevinMcreynolds]

You realize that we aren’t going to be under the cap even if Drays salary just vanishes, right?

I understand, I just don't want him around anymore. I think he's a ticking time bomb.

I dont know man, the downside is almost nil here. If he gets himself suspended - oh no, we lose more games as we try and find a new #1 for the future. If he goes nuclear on a teammate (that presumably we want to keep) - oh no, he's done something that could nullify his contract

In the meantime the young guys get to reap the benefits of a guy who's extremely smart, has coached up the young players historically, and is extremely loyal to the team. I'll take that over the garbage contract of some younger guy coming in with no history and no loyalty to the franchise

I’ll make it even simpler, I’m just tired of him. I don’t want to watch him play anymore and I don’t want to hear his stupid takes.

[Onus]

I think basketball is harder to evaluate and has more nuance than you let on. Some players are fairly finished products by the end of year 3 - kawhi, lebron, and haliburton are examples at different points in the last 20 years.

Other players are just scratching the surface of the stars they'll become: Shai, Jamal Murray, and Brunson are recent examples.

There's another category - those that peaked in year 3. That would be players like tyreke evans, michael carter williams, and ben simmons. some due to injury, others due to getting the bag and checking out (JP3, anyone?). Some just don't improve much. I don't mention JP3 as an example because even he is still too young for me to write him off, though his run in Was isn't exactly a hopeful one.

Funny you brought up Brunson, Dallas thought that extending him in year 4 for like 4/55 was too much. It was a mistake, even in the moment, but it was also impossible to say Brunson would turn into a 2nd team all NBA level guard.

Will JK ever improve enough to be better than rudy gay? I'd bet 'yes' but it's still just that - a bet. You may bet 'no' and I'll respect that. To say he is what he is and has shown us what he'll be is premature.

it's not whether they're finished products or not by the end of year 3. It's that by the end of year 3 you see signs that they're going to be an all star. They have some type of break out the way JP had in his year 3 and you're like wow there's something here. It doesn't matter the age or not by year 3 if you aren't showing something it's very very unlikely you become an all star. Could it still happen sure it's possible but you're going to be an outlier.

By year 3 Brunson was 4th in 6MOY voting.

I'm not saying he is what he is. It's just very unlikely he become a perennial all star. His ceiling is more likely a fringe all star. JK did have a good stretch in his 3rd year so it's still possible. We'll see next year if he's able to be more consistent.

[Chris Porter's Hair]

You realize that we aren’t going to be under the cap even if Drays salary just vanishes, right?

I understand, I just don't want him around anymore. I think he's a ticking time bomb.

I dont know man, the downside is almost nil here. If he gets himself suspended - oh no, we lose more games as we try and find a new #1 for the future. If he goes nuclear on a teammate (that presumably we want to keep) - oh no, he's done something that could nullify his contract

In the meantime the young guys get to reap the benefits of a guy who's extremely smart, has coached up the young players historically, and is extremely loyal to the team. I'll take that over the garbage contract of some younger guy coming in with no history and no loyalty to the franchise

If precedent says that choking your coach isn't sufficient cause to void a contract for conduct detrimental to the team, I don't want to think about what you'd need to do to a teammate to get your contract voided.

That arbitrator's decision is still probably my personal low point as a Warriors fan. Everything was so awful, but I was at least proud of us for taking a stand. Having an arbitrator say, "Eh, I dunno. Choking the coach isn't necessarily a big deal. You have to keep him."... ugh. Trying to remember... we got Starks, Cummings, and... someone else... Chris Mills. I gave up and looked it up.

[Chris Porter's Hair]

I seriously don't believe Steph was offered and they choose Monta.

Bucks fans say this all the time. But I suspect the deal was different if it was Steph. That's what is never spelled out, likely because the source doesn't know themselves.

I think I read someone says that the Buck's doctor didn't clear Steph's ankles or something. But I was always a Steph guy over Monta so it's hard to believe that they would have the same value.

That trade, on the whole, was a yolo move that I totally respected. When we traded Monta for Bogut, I said, "This will either make us much better if Bogut is healthy, or much worse if he isn't, and I'm okay with either. At least we won't be treadmilling with late lottery picks." And if that is your mindset, yeah. Gamble on Curry's ankles. Monta was what he was, and was never going to be a key player on a real contending team. There was no point in keeping him around instead of the potential if Curry stayed healthy.

(And of course history would seem to back that up)

[vvoland]

Bucks fans say this all the time. But I suspect the deal was different if it was Steph. That's what is never spelled out, likely because the source doesn't know themselves.

I think I read someone says that the Buck's doctor didn't clear Steph's ankles or something. But I was always a Steph guy over Monta so it's hard to believe that they would have the same value.

That trade, on the whole, was a yolo move that I totally respected. When we traded Monta for Bogut, I said, "This will either make us much better if Bogut is healthy, or much worse if he isn't, and I'm okay with either. At least we won't be treadmilling with late lottery picks." And if that is your mindset, yeah. Gamble on Curry's ankles. Monta was what he was, and was never going to be a key player on a real contending team. There was no point in keeping him around instead of the potential if Curry stayed healthy.

(And of course history would seem to back that up)

Letting the bucks pick between monta and steph was definitely a yolo move. Luckily for us, they picked wrong.

[floppymoose]

[Chris Porter's Hair]

I think I read someone says that the Buck's doctor didn't clear Steph's ankles or something. But I was always a Steph guy over Monta so it's hard to believe that they would have the same value.

That trade, on the whole, was a yolo move that I totally respected. When we traded Monta for Bogut, I said, "This will either make us much better if Bogut is healthy, or much worse if he isn't, and I'm okay with either. At least we won't be treadmilling with late lottery picks." And if that is your mindset, yeah. Gamble on Curry's ankles. Monta was what he was, and was never going to be a key player on a real contending team. There was no point in keeping him around instead of the potential if Curry stayed healthy.

(And of course history would seem to back that up)

Letting the bucks pick between monta and steph was definitely a yolo move. Luckily for us, they picked wrong.

I gather they copied you on the memo with the details of those trade offers.

Put me in the crowd that absolutely does not believe that Curry and Monta were entirely interchangeable in that trade.

[KevinMcreynolds]

Time to bring it back?

[vvoland]

That trade, on the whole, was a yolo move that I totally respected. When we traded Monta for Bogut, I said, "This will either make us much better if Bogut is healthy, or much worse if he isn't, and I'm okay with either. At least we won't be treadmilling with late lottery picks." And if that is your mindset, yeah. Gamble on Curry's ankles. Monta was what he was, and was never going to be a key player on a real contending team. There was no point in keeping him around instead of the potential if Curry stayed healthy.

(And of course history would seem to back that up)

Letting the bucks pick between monta and steph was definitely a yolo move. Luckily for us, they picked wrong.

I gather they copied you on the memo with the details of those trade offers.

Put me in the crowd that absolutely does not believe that Curry and Monta were entirely interchangeable in that trade.

Not entirely interchangeable. Just two different packages, one centered around Monta and another centered around Steph. I don't think it's a secret and while I wasn't copied on the memo, it's pretty well established that Curry was being shopped at that time

[CDM_Stats]

I gather they copied you on the memo with the details of those trade offers.

Put me in the crowd that absolutely does not believe that Curry and Monta were entirely interchangeable in that trade.

I wonder if, like in most deals, something (player A) was offered, a counter was made involving a different player, (B) and the headline read: Player A and Player B were both involved in trade talks

Have a really hard time believing Jerry West being in the room and thinking they were in the same stratosphere. Also I dont know why people are so ready to believe Mark Jackson, who was desperately pushing the "us vs them" mentality of the players/coaches vs their own front office (and sometimes his own players), was the one who stepped in and said nah

Also the inclusion of Stephen Jackson, a hated figure in the Bay Area, and the remnants of the extension that he bitched out Rowell to give him kinda goes against the idea as well. His salary was the difference between Monta and Curry at the time, and the Warriors had no interest in him even being near the team, immediately flipping him for an even worse contract (3 years of RJ)

Just doesnt add up to me, but whatever