Game 83 (9-10 play-in) Tuesday April 16 vs. Sacramento Kings

[vvoland]

I also don't think it's clear that Franz will become the better player. It was obvious last year but became less obvious during JKs Jan/Feb this season. It may be just a coincidence that the minute the magic's games started to matter, Franz's shot fell off a cliff. We'll see him in the playoffs this year so it''ll make some things clear. Franz has also had all the minutes he could handle in his first 3 seasons. Would he look anywhere near the player he became with the magic if he was stuck behind wigs, klay, beli, gp2, opj, dray and let's not forget anthony lamb during his first two seasons?

It's not even about who will become the better player 10 years from now. It really should've been who will help the team win another championship. I don't think it's particular close that Franz has had a better 3 years than JK. Franz is also playing with a worse team and out of position to accommodate Paolo. That's what's so appealing about Franz his skillset is really that of a complementary player. He's a great off ball defender. He knows how to move on ball and off ball on offense. Passes and sets screens. Maybe Franz doesn't play his first year since OPJ was really good for us. But he's playing over Lamb without a doubt.

Pretty sure murphy would be better than moody in any situation but the rest of this board is much higher on MM than I am. Not sure Sengun is allowed to crater the defense and make as many mistakes as the focal point of the offense on this team. Actually, I am sure - he would not be allowed to do any of that. Hindsight is 20/20 and missing on picks hurt. Getting literally 0 value back for wiseman was awful. Not the drafting but not recognizing soon enough he wouldn't fit and moving him for something that can contribute (hell, even sadiq bey would have been preferable to gp2, whom they could have just signed).

The real move that draft year would have been drafting lamelo and moving him the following summer. That take a level of prescience that I can't blame Meyers for not having.

Sengun would be different for sure. Who knows how he would've developed here. We did start Wiseman though even though he wasn't ready.

The wiseman draft we know the picks and players weren't highly sought after. The rumored offer was #4 + WCJ for #2. Like meh. Yea it would've been better to do that in hindsight but that's a hard sell so whatever.

You're right that there's no world where JK had a better first 3 years than Franz did. But we did win a title, that year, specifically. I'm saying that bringing a player like Franz may have been a detriment to winning that season. Not playing JK was fine in year 1 and giving him just spot minutes here and there worked well enough to not disrupt whatever chemistry the team had.

Franz would demand more playing time because he was more NBA ready. Would wigs still play like he did that playoff run if he has Franz breathing down his neck, or possibly even taking his minutes. We know dray's love of white euros at the 3/4/5 spots. Would he still be a dominant defensive presence if Franz is taking some of Dray's minutes?

I'm not saying winning that year absolves the FO. I'm saying we can't just say "draft franz, we still win a ring and we're better set up for the future."

[Onus]

I also don't think it's clear that Franz will become the better player. It was obvious last year but became less obvious during JKs Jan/Feb this season. It may be just a coincidence that the minute the magic's games started to matter, Franz's shot fell off a cliff. We'll see him in the playoffs this year so it''ll make some things clear. Franz has also had all the minutes he could handle in his first 3 seasons. Would he look anywhere near the player he became with the magic if he was stuck behind wigs, klay, beli, gp2, opj, dray and let's not forget anthony lamb during his first two seasons?

It's not even about who will become the better player 10 years from now. It really should've been who will help the team win another championship. I don't think it's particular close that Franz has had a better 3 years than JK. Franz is also playing with a worse team and out of position to accommodate Paolo. That's what's so appealing about Franz his skillset is really that of a complementary player. He's a great off ball defender. He knows how to move on ball and off ball on offense. Passes and sets screens. Maybe Franz doesn't play his first year since OPJ was really good for us. But he's playing over Lamb without a doubt.

Pretty sure murphy would be better than moody in any situation but the rest of this board is much higher on MM than I am. Not sure Sengun is allowed to crater the defense and make as many mistakes as the focal point of the offense on this team. Actually, I am sure - he would not be allowed to do any of that. Hindsight is 20/20 and missing on picks hurt. Getting literally 0 value back for wiseman was awful. Not the drafting but not recognizing soon enough he wouldn't fit and moving him for something that can contribute (hell, even sadiq bey would have been preferable to gp2, whom they could have just signed).

The real move that draft year would have been drafting lamelo and moving him the following summer. That take a level of prescience that I can't blame Meyers for not having.

Sengun would be different for sure. Who knows how he would've developed here. We did start Wiseman though even though he wasn't ready.

The wiseman draft we know the picks and players weren't highly sought after. The rumored offer was #4 + WCJ for #2. Like meh. Yea it would've been better to do that in hindsight but that's a hard sell so whatever.

You're right that there's no world where JK had a better first 3 years than Franz did. But we did win a title, that year, specifically. I'm saying that bringing a player like Franz may have been a detriment to winning that season. Not playing JK was fine in year 1 and giving him just spot minutes here and there worked well enough to not disrupt whatever chemistry the team had.

Franz would demand more playing time because he was more NBA ready. Would wigs still play like he did that playoff run if he has Franz breathing down his neck, or possibly even taking his minutes. We know dray's love of white euros at the 3/4/5 spots. Would he still be a dominant defensive presence if Franz is taking some of Dray's minutes?

I'm not saying winning that year absolves the FO. I'm saying we can't just say "draft franz, we still win a ring and we're better set up for the future."

What about Franz makes you think he's demanding anything?

Maybe we don't win a ring, but we'd be better set up for the future. JK gave us nothing his 1st 2 years and whined his way into a role in his 3rd year.

Also Franz wouldn't be taking Wiggins role. Franz would be taking OPJ's role/Looney's starting spot and moving Dray to the 5. Franz is a 4 who can play the 3. He's a much better help defender than on ball defender. He covers a lot of ground and is able to make a lot of close outs, and can even protect the paint a bit. He would probably help take Draymond's roamer role.

[Bayside]

They are going to milk this for another 2 years.

[vvoland]

It's not even about who will become the better player 10 years from now. It really should've been who will help the team win another championship. I don't think it's particular close that Franz has had a better 3 years than JK. Franz is also playing with a worse team and out of position to accommodate Paolo. That's what's so appealing about Franz his skillset is really that of a complementary player. He's a great off ball defender. He knows how to move on ball and off ball on offense. Passes and sets screens. Maybe Franz doesn't play his first year since OPJ was really good for us. But he's playing over Lamb without a doubt.

Sengun would be different for sure. Who knows how he would've developed here. We did start Wiseman though even though he wasn't ready.

The wiseman draft we know the picks and players weren't highly sought after. The rumored offer was #4 + WCJ for #2. Like meh. Yea it would've been better to do that in hindsight but that's a hard sell so whatever.

You're right that there's no world where JK had a better first 3 years than Franz did. But we did win a title, that year, specifically. I'm saying that bringing a player like Franz may have been a detriment to winning that season. Not playing JK was fine in year 1 and giving him just spot minutes here and there worked well enough to not disrupt whatever chemistry the team had.

Franz would demand more playing time because he was more NBA ready. Would wigs still play like he did that playoff run if he has Franz breathing down his neck, or possibly even taking his minutes. We know dray's love of white euros at the 3/4/5 spots. Would he still be a dominant defensive presence if Franz is taking some of Dray's minutes?

I'm not saying winning that year absolves the FO. I'm saying we can't just say "draft franz, we still win a ring and we're better set up for the future."

What about Franz makes you think he's demanding anything?

Maybe we don't win a ring, but we'd be better set up for the future. JK gave us nothing his 1st 2 years and whined his way into a role in his 3rd year.

Also Franz wouldn't be taking Wiggins role. Franz would be taking OPJ's role/Looney's starting spot and moving Dray to the 5. Franz is a 4 who can play the 3. He's a much better help defender than on ball defender. He covers a lot of ground and is able to make a lot of close outs, and can even protect the paint a bit. He would probably help take Draymond's roamer role.

Franz wouldn't be demanding anything - his play would demand it since he was NBA ready as a rookie. But this is where you and I differ: "Maybe we don't win a ring, but we'd be better set up for the future." - I'll take the ring over a young player that may be a 2nd option on a contender at some point down the line.

You keep saying JK whined his way to into a role and gave us nothing before that. That is just not true. He was one of the main drivers of our late season surge last year. Without him, we probably get bounced in the play-in. This year, he didn't whine his way into a role. Yes, his complaint was public but he earned that role once Dray got suspended again, Kerr had to play him 25 mpg and JK shined in those minutes, particularly with the starters. Just terrible timing on his injury - right before the stretch run and he certainly looked out of rhythm and lacking confidence/fluidity once he came back.

My biggest worry with JK is that he has knee tendinitis at 21. He's improved in virtually every area since his rookie year (though it's been up an down, not just a straight line up and to the right). His improved FT shooting in the middle of the season make me hopeful for his 3pt % next year. Not sure if he'll be a real no1 option but when curry was 21, he was still at davidson, looking like he got lost on the way to a middle school dance so I think JK has some development ahead of him.

[whatisacenter]

Franzphiles should go root for the magic…dude reached his ceiling in his second season with all the playing he could ask for.

[Onus]

You're right that there's no world where JK had a better first 3 years than Franz did. But we did win a title, that year, specifically. I'm saying that bringing a player like Franz may have been a detriment to winning that season. Not playing JK was fine in year 1 and giving him just spot minutes here and there worked well enough to not disrupt whatever chemistry the team had.

Franz would demand more playing time because he was more NBA ready. Would wigs still play like he did that playoff run if he has Franz breathing down his neck, or possibly even taking his minutes. We know dray's love of white euros at the 3/4/5 spots. Would he still be a dominant defensive presence if Franz is taking some of Dray's minutes?

I'm not saying winning that year absolves the FO. I'm saying we can't just say "draft franz, we still win a ring and we're better set up for the future."

What about Franz makes you think he's demanding anything?

Maybe we don't win a ring, but we'd be better set up for the future. JK gave us nothing his 1st 2 years and whined his way into a role in his 3rd year.

Also Franz wouldn't be taking Wiggins role. Franz would be taking OPJ's role/Looney's starting spot and moving Dray to the 5. Franz is a 4 who can play the 3. He's a much better help defender than on ball defender. He covers a lot of ground and is able to make a lot of close outs, and can even protect the paint a bit. He would probably help take Draymond's roamer role.

Franz wouldn't be demanding anything - his play would demand it since he was NBA ready as a rookie. But this is where you and I differ: "Maybe we don't win a ring, but we'd be better set up for the future." - I'll take the ring over a young player that may be a 2nd option on a contender at some point down the line.

We have no clue whether or not we win a ring. I mean we can just as easily say we still win that ring since JK didn't even play and we can hypothetically say Franz doesn't play as well. It doesn't change anything one way or another. The thing we do know is that Franz is more capable of playing.

You keep saying JK whined his way to into a role and gave us nothing before that. That is just not true. He was one of the main drivers of our late season surge last year. Without him, we probably get bounced in the play-in. This year, he didn't whine his way into a role. Yes, his complaint was public but he earned that role once Dray got suspended again, Kerr had to play him 25 mpg and JK shined in those minutes, particularly with the starters. Just terrible timing on his injury - right before the stretch run and he certainly looked out of rhythm and lacking confidence/fluidity once he came back.

I'm still not even sure if Moody played instead of JK we aren't better to be honest.

My biggest worry with JK is that he has knee tendinitis at 21. He's improved in virtually every area since his rookie year (though it's been up an down, not just a straight line up and to the right). His improved FT shooting in the middle of the season make me hopeful for his 3pt % next year. Not sure if he'll be a real no1 option but when curry was 21, he was still at davidson, looking like he got lost on the way to a middle school dance so I think JK has some development ahead of him.

JK has improved. 3rd year for wings/guards are when they really kind of develop into who they are. It's not really age that matters but time in the league that matters for development. Sure there are some outliers here and there but for the most part guards and wings in their 3rd year show what they are. Centers take longer to develop in the league. It's good that JK did have somewhat of a break out in the middle of the season. But that mini break out really was just scoring while he kind of flatlined in every other area. He's an NBA player. He can fill a role. That's fine. He's just very limited as of now. I wouldn't want to invest over 100+ M in his next contract.

Curry at 21 was the runner up for ROY. Before that he was putting Davidson on the NCAA map. Bet you've never heard of Davidson before Steph Curry.

[vvoland]

What about Franz makes you think he's demanding anything?

Maybe we don't win a ring, but we'd be better set up for the future. JK gave us nothing his 1st 2 years and whined his way into a role in his 3rd year.

Also Franz wouldn't be taking Wiggins role. Franz would be taking OPJ's role/Looney's starting spot and moving Dray to the 5. Franz is a 4 who can play the 3. He's a much better help defender than on ball defender. He covers a lot of ground and is able to make a lot of close outs, and can even protect the paint a bit. He would probably help take Draymond's roamer role.

Franz wouldn't be demanding anything - his play would demand it since he was NBA ready as a rookie. But this is where you and I differ: "Maybe we don't win a ring, but we'd be better set up for the future." - I'll take the ring over a young player that may be a 2nd option on a contender at some point down the line.

We have no clue whether or not we win a ring. I mean we can just as easily say we still win that ring since JK didn't even play and we can hypothetically say Franz doesn't play as well. It doesn't change anything one way or another. The thing we do know is that Franz is more capable of playing.

You keep saying JK whined his way to into a role and gave us nothing before that. That is just not true. He was one of the main drivers of our late season surge last year. Without him, we probably get bounced in the play-in. This year, he didn't whine his way into a role. Yes, his complaint was public but he earned that role once Dray got suspended again, Kerr had to play him 25 mpg and JK shined in those minutes, particularly with the starters. Just terrible timing on his injury - right before the stretch run and he certainly looked out of rhythm and lacking confidence/fluidity once he came back.

I'm still not even sure if Moody played instead of JK we aren't better to be honest.

My biggest worry with JK is that he has knee tendinitis at 21. He's improved in virtually every area since his rookie year (though it's been up an down, not just a straight line up and to the right). His improved FT shooting in the middle of the season make me hopeful for his 3pt % next year. Not sure if he'll be a real no1 option but when curry was 21, he was still at davidson, looking like he got lost on the way to a middle school dance so I think JK has some development ahead of him.

JK has improved. 3rd year for wings/guards are when they really kind of develop into who they are. It's not really age that matters but time in the league that matters for development. Sure there are some outliers here and there but for the most part guards and wings in their 3rd year show what they are. Centers take longer to develop in the league. It's good that JK did have somewhat of a break out in the middle of the season. But that mini break out really was just scoring while he kind of flatlined in every other area. He's an NBA player. He can fill a role. That's fine. He's just very limited as of now. I wouldn't want to invest over 100+ M in his next contract.

Curry at 21 was the runner up for ROY. Before that he was putting Davidson on the NCAA map. Bet you've never heard of Davidson before Steph Curry.

Yep, and then we offered him or monta to the bucks because 21 year olds are "developed into who they are."

It's def more age than time in the league; it's why 24 y.o TJD probably hit his ceiling, already. For JK time in the league is a weird stat because you can't really say he's had the same amount of time as franz or jalen green considering they've played like 3x the minutes he has in the same amount of years.

JK is limited as a scorer because his 3pt shot isn't developed (might never be). He's actually growing significantly as an on-ball creator and has improved his handle and rebounding. Whether he'll ever be the player I am hoping he will be remains to be seen. I'd be careful with proclamations that a 21 is whof he is. If you remember, players used to enter the league at 21, not be a year away from their rookie extension.

The one silver lininig, if you believe in moody and jk, is that their rookie extensions will, probably, be modest. not like miles mcbridge modest, but still, not the lamelo, desmond bane, haliburton levels. I'm guessing 5/75 for JK and 5/50 for moody. Not sure either of them takes that, but, if they were to extend this summer, that would be the offer on the table and let's see if they want to turn down generational wealth.

[Onus]

Franz wouldn't be demanding anything - his play would demand it since he was NBA ready as a rookie. But this is where you and I differ: "Maybe we don't win a ring, but we'd be better set up for the future." - I'll take the ring over a young player that may be a 2nd option on a contender at some point down the line.

We have no clue whether or not we win a ring. I mean we can just as easily say we still win that ring since JK didn't even play and we can hypothetically say Franz doesn't play as well. It doesn't change anything one way or another. The thing we do know is that Franz is more capable of playing.

You keep saying JK whined his way to into a role and gave us nothing before that. That is just not true. He was one of the main drivers of our late season surge last year. Without him, we probably get bounced in the play-in. This year, he didn't whine his way into a role. Yes, his complaint was public but he earned that role once Dray got suspended again, Kerr had to play him 25 mpg and JK shined in those minutes, particularly with the starters. Just terrible timing on his injury - right before the stretch run and he certainly looked out of rhythm and lacking confidence/fluidity once he came back.

I'm still not even sure if Moody played instead of JK we aren't better to be honest.

My biggest worry with JK is that he has knee tendinitis at 21. He's improved in virtually every area since his rookie year (though it's been up an down, not just a straight line up and to the right). His improved FT shooting in the middle of the season make me hopeful for his 3pt % next year. Not sure if he'll be a real no1 option but when curry was 21, he was still at davidson, looking like he got lost on the way to a middle school dance so I think JK has some development ahead of him.

JK has improved. 3rd year for wings/guards are when they really kind of develop into who they are. It's not really age that matters but time in the league that matters for development. Sure there are some outliers here and there but for the most part guards and wings in their 3rd year show what they are. Centers take longer to develop in the league. It's good that JK did have somewhat of a break out in the middle of the season. But that mini break out really was just scoring while he kind of flatlined in every other area. He's an NBA player. He can fill a role. That's fine. He's just very limited as of now. I wouldn't want to invest over 100+ M in his next contract.

Curry at 21 was the runner up for ROY. Before that he was putting Davidson on the NCAA map. Bet you've never heard of Davidson before Steph Curry.

Yep, and then we offered him or monta to the bucks because 21 year olds are "developed into who they are."

It's def more age than time in the league; it's why 24 y.o TJD probably hit his ceiling, already. For JK time in the league is a weird stat because you can't really say he's had the same amount of time as franz or jalen green considering they've played like 3x the minutes he has in the same amount of years.

JK is limited as a scorer because his 3pt shot isn't developed (might never be). He's actually growing significantly as an on-ball creator and has improved his handle and rebounding. Whether he'll ever be the player I am hoping he will be remains to be seen. I'd be careful with proclamations that a 21 is whof he is. If you remember, players used to enter the league at 21, not be a year away from their rookie extension.

The one silver lininig, if you believe in moody and jk, is that their rookie extensions will, probably, be modest. not like miles mcbridge modest, but still, not the lamelo, desmond bane, haliburton levels. I'm guessing 5/75 for JK and 5/50 for moody. Not sure either of them takes that, but, if they were to extend this summer, that would be the offer on the table and let's see if they want to turn down generational wealth.

Go ahead and look throughout history. Most players who come in as teenagers and are wings or guards by their 3rd year if they're going to be a star or if they're going to be an all star or lock down defender they're vying for awards whether it's mip, allstar, all defense, 6moty, showing true star potential by their 3rd year.

I seriously don't believe Steph was offered and they choose Monta.

It's not. Age when you come in yes. Age by your 3rd season though no. It's an age thing at the draft because you're wondering if they still have time to physically develop and if they start training every day you should be able to develop them. But once you're in the league and you've had 3 years in the league with the training and the physical development. You are who you are at that point. There may be a few outliers but in general you know by the end of year 3 if that player is going to be a star or is going to be a problem for the league regardless of their age.

TJD didn't hit his ceiling as a rookie, I mean he's close to it but we can't expect him to grow 2 inches. He isn't really going to be able to change his game and develop a 3 point shot. The thinking is that there's just little room. There's just not as much mystery box and hope that he's going to have a growth spurt or he's going to be able to put 20 lbs of muscle and going to be a completely different athlete. But even Jalen Brunson who was 22 when he was drafted, by his 3rd year he was vying for 6 MOY.

[floppymoose]

I seriously don't believe Steph was offered and they choose Monta.

Bucks fans say this all the time. But I suspect the deal was different if it was Steph. That's what is never spelled out, likely because the source doesn't know themselves.

[510TWSS]

i fell asleep and woke up after it ended. Frankly i think that was the best viewing option.

[Onus]

I seriously don't believe Steph was offered and they choose Monta.

Bucks fans say this all the time. But I suspect the deal was different if it was Steph. That's what is never spelled out, likely because the source doesn't know themselves.

I think I read someone says that the Buck's doctor didn't clear Steph's ankles or something. But I was always a Steph guy over Monta so it's hard to believe that they would have the same value.

[vvoland]

We have no clue whether or not we win a ring. I mean we can just as easily say we still win that ring since JK didn't even play and we can hypothetically say Franz doesn't play as well. It doesn't change anything one way or another. The thing we do know is that Franz is more capable of playing.

I'm still not even sure if Moody played instead of JK we aren't better to be honest.


JK has improved. 3rd year for wings/guards are when they really kind of develop into who they are. It's not really age that matters but time in the league that matters for development. Sure there are some outliers here and there but for the most part guards and wings in their 3rd year show what they are. Centers take longer to develop in the league. It's good that JK did have somewhat of a break out in the middle of the season. But that mini break out really was just scoring while he kind of flatlined in every other area. He's an NBA player. He can fill a role. That's fine. He's just very limited as of now. I wouldn't want to invest over 100+ M in his next contract.

Curry at 21 was the runner up for ROY. Before that he was putting Davidson on the NCAA map. Bet you've never heard of Davidson before Steph Curry.

Yep, and then we offered him or monta to the bucks because 21 year olds are "developed into who they are."

It's def more age than time in the league; it's why 24 y.o TJD probably hit his ceiling, already. For JK time in the league is a weird stat because you can't really say he's had the same amount of time as franz or jalen green considering they've played like 3x the minutes he has in the same amount of years.

JK is limited as a scorer because his 3pt shot isn't developed (might never be). He's actually growing significantly as an on-ball creator and has improved his handle and rebounding. Whether he'll ever be the player I am hoping he will be remains to be seen. I'd be careful with proclamations that a 21 is whof he is. If you remember, players used to enter the league at 21, not be a year away from their rookie extension.

The one silver lininig, if you believe in moody and jk, is that their rookie extensions will, probably, be modest. not like miles mcbridge modest, but still, not the lamelo, desmond bane, haliburton levels. I'm guessing 5/75 for JK and 5/50 for moody. Not sure either of them takes that, but, if they were to extend this summer, that would be the offer on the table and let's see if they want to turn down generational wealth.

Go ahead and look throughout history. Most players who come in as teenagers and are wings or guards by their 3rd year if they're going to be a star or if they're going to be an all star or lock down defender they're vying for awards whether it's mip, allstar, all defense, 6moty, showing true star potential by their 3rd year.

I seriously don't believe Steph was offered and they choose Monta.

It's not. Age when you come in yes. Age by your 3rd season though no. It's an age thing at the draft because you're wondering if they still have time to physically develop and if they start training every day you should be able to develop them. But once you're in the league and you've had 3 years in the league with the training and the physical development. You are who you are at that point. There may be a few outliers but in general you know by the end of year 3 if that player is going to be a star or is going to be a problem for the league regardless of their age.

TJD didn't hit his ceiling as a rookie, I mean he's close to it but we can't expect him to grow 2 inches. He isn't really going to be able to change his game and develop a 3 point shot. The thinking is that there's just little room. There's just not as much mystery box and hope that he's going to have a growth spurt or he's going to be able to put 20 lbs of muscle and going to be a completely different athlete. But even Jalen Brunson who was 22 when he was drafted, by his 3rd year he was vying for 6 MOY.

I think basketball is harder to evaluate and has more nuance than you let on. Some players are fairly finished products by the end of year 3 - kawhi, lebron, and haliburton are examples at different points in the last 20 years.

Other players are just scratching the surface of the stars they'll become: Shai, Jamal Murray, and Brunson are recent examples.

There's another category - those that peaked in year 3. That would be players like tyreke evans, michael carter williams, and ben simmons. some due to injury, others due to getting the bag and checking out (JP3, anyone?). Some just don't improve much. I don't mention JP3 as an example because even he is still too young for me to write him off, though his run in Was isn't exactly a hopeful one.

Funny you brought up Brunson, Dallas thought that extending him in year 4 for like 4/55 was too much. It was a mistake, even in the moment, but it was also impossible to say Brunson would turn into a 2nd team all NBA level guard.

Will JK ever improve enough to be better than rudy gay? I'd bet 'yes' but it's still just that - a bet. You may bet 'no' and I'll respect that. To say he is what he is and has shown us what he'll be is premature.

[vvoland]

I seriously don't believe Steph was offered and they choose Monta.

Bucks fans say this all the time. But I suspect the deal was different if it was Steph. That's what is never spelled out, likely because the source doesn't know themselves.

I think I read someone says that the Buck's doctor didn't clear Steph's ankles or something. But I was always a Steph guy over Monta so it's hard to believe that they would have the same value.

I think we all forget just how damaged Curry was at that time. He signed his rookie extension because that was the contract he deserved - not because he didn't care about money. He was a huge negative defensively, unseen before offensive weapon, AND he had the ankles of a toddler with brittle bone disease. The alternate reality where he becomes a top 5-10 player of ALL TIME is 1 in a billion. We should all be grateful we are living in it.

[KevinMcreynolds]

Oh no would that cost us wins on our quest for the title?

it's waste of cap space to have a guy suspended, out doing drive-thru therapy again

You realize that we aren’t going to be under the cap even if Drays salary just vanishes, right?

I understand, I just don't want him around anymore. I think he's a ticking time bomb.

[billinder33]

I think the circumstances matter in this case. JK's late start in well-organized basketball and his scattered playing time the first couple seasons are certainly a factor in his slow development, especially defensively.

On the flip side, JK's inherent feel for the game just isn't where it should be by now. The ball is still a little too sticky in his hands for a guy who isn't a clear #1.. Last couple months his minutes have been like watching a big time HS prospect trying to learn the team game at a top university. Which ultimately is giving me a too much of a Kelly Oubre vibe.... that feeling that there's something exceptional inside the player just waiting to be unlocked, but it's not clear that any amount of coaching can actually unlock it.

I've also been thinking that even though JK is highly athletic, the contrast between his athleticism and that of his teammates is distorting the true picture a bit. That his athleticism is more common than we think. But since we haven't actually seen a lot of freakish athleticism since Durant left, it seems like more of a unicorn than it actually is.

I can see both the upside and downside perspectives but the last couple of months I've drifted a little more into the "it's probably never going to fully materialize" line of thinking. I could easily get sucked back in if he comes out on fire next season. Regardless, I'd want a serious player coming back in any preseason trade, not just draft picks or roster filters. Otherwise I'd be content to hold for now and monitor the progress. It's not like his value is going to drastically drop. Plenty of other teams will want to take on this risk based on what he's done this season.

[Twinkie defense]

I don't blame Kerr - our players are just not good enough anymore. That's a normal course for teams, no one stays on top forever - in fact the Warriors had been at or near the top for longer than we deserve. But if there is any blame to be handed out my vote goes to the Bob Myers front office for not stocking the cupboard over these years. Where is the next generation of players? So many draft whiffs.

Blame isn't binary.. both Kerr and Myers petered out. Myers is gone, but Kerr's is in progress with 2 years on the horizon on a non-playoff team with no 1st rounder and little room to maneuver, and a reputation of not developing/playing young players

I have no problem with Kerr. When he got young guys who could play, they played - the problem is a bare cupboard.

[Twinkie defense]

Bob’s drafts were not really horrible. The draft classes were horrible.

There's always good players in the draft. Look at what Dunleavy did with #19 and #57 (which they acquired). Look at all the bad players who were drafted ahead of Steph and Draymond. And if the Warriors find themselves in a spot where they don't like any of the players available they can always trade out.

[Twinkie defense]

They are going to milk this for another 2 years.

Surely Lacob understands that would be a mistake - unless they could use CP3's salary to bring in a superstar-type player. But who might be available who would even want to come here, on the downside of Steph, Draymond, and Klay's career?

It's better to rebuild a little too early, when you can still get assets back, than a little too late.

[Twinkie defense]

I think basketball is harder to evaluate and has more nuance than you let on. Some players are fairly finished products by the end of year 3 - kawhi

I saw a lot of Kawhi because he was in the same conference as my Gauchos. I couldn't believe it when Warriors GM Larry Riley, when asked about Kawhi (drafted #15 overall), said "we can't use a player like [Kawhi]" Now it's hard to complain about taking Klay Thompson at #11, but not seeing value in getting a rookie Kawhi Leonard on your team shows you how teams blow it in the draft.

(For the record I had LaMelo over Wiseman and Davion Mitchell over Kuminga - ok maybe I missed that one but that's why they don't pay me the big bucks.]

[CDM_Stats]

I don't blame Kerr - our players are just not good enough anymore. That's a normal course for teams, no one stays on top forever - in fact the Warriors had been at or near the top for longer than we deserve. But if there is any blame to be handed out my vote goes to the Bob Myers front office for not stocking the cupboard over these years. Where is the next generation of players? So many draft whiffs.

Blame isn't binary.. both Kerr and Myers petered out. Myers is gone, but Kerr's is in progress with 2 years on the horizon on a non-playoff team with no 1st rounder and little room to maneuver, and a reputation of not developing/playing young players

I have no problem with Kerr. When he got young guys who could play, they played - the problem is a bare cupboard.

Ever the optimist.. I saw a ton of value being left on the table the past 2 seasons without Mike Brown. Especially when the young guys did play well, and they were benched for the old guys who werent