Harden Traded to the Rockets!

[Sasaki]

Welll sorry guys, Lebron and Durant just weren't available. Morey should have just sat on his ass and prayed for Wiggins to fall into his lap, hope Jeremy Lamb is a good player, draft another role player with Toronto's late lottery pick and draft another guy we hope pans out with the Dallas late 1st. The Bobcats pick is a 2nd rounder yet people act like its a lotto pick too. How many draft picks do we need to have every year? This team was going to have 5 rookies and Greg Smith on it! Do we really need more projects on this team next year or is it time to start cashing in these picks for proven talent? No matter what you may think or how you feel about it, Morey has admitted to stockpiling these picks to trade them, not to have 3 or more rookies on the team each year. You can't win like that. Upgrading your team with a 23 year old star can't be a bad thing. You have to start the process somewhere. This won't be the last move that is made...look at the big picture. If this is it then yeah this sucks, but there is no way that Morey is going to be like my work here is done.

that's why you go for the #1 pick

That's not strategy. That's literally praying that the balls fall our way, and nothing more. Not to mention...what are the chances that the guy you get is going to be better than James Harden anyways? There was a thread on the Board that shall not be named that pointed that Shabazz Muhammed, the guy who tankers like you claim we should have gotten somehow..... is frequently compared to James Harden.

I mean, seriously, I've been disgusted by the ease which fanbases accept tanking these days, but we're getting to the point where the Sterling style of running a team is actually lauded as a GOOD thing. And that needs to change.

[Mr. E]

Eh, I'll take Patrick Patterson at 14 over Olawakandi at 1

[Baller 24]

Max, it's not that easy. Daryl Morey and the Houston Rockets organization has been committed to the idea that tanking will not solve any problems. They have stated on numerous occasions that our game plan from day 1 has been committed to winning and being competitive while upgrading the roster. Morey has *never* been about developing a first round pick and building around him. It's been more or so to find that star/superstar to build around and go from there.

And why is everyone acting as if even the #1 pick in ANY draft has the potential even be as good or better than Harden? James Harden has not hit his ceiling. The kid is only 23 with 3 years of NBA experience under his belt. He's been to the playoffs every single season, he's been to the WCF, and the Finals. He played like a MONSTER in rounds 1, 2, and 3. He's showen the ability to close out in BIG playoff games when Westbrook and Durant weren't in their groove (v Dallas Game 4, V San Antonio Game 5). All objective evidence and advanced statistics point to one thing: he's got the ability to be the best SG in the ENTIRE league. He's 23 and already is undoubtably the 3rd best all-around shooting guard in the league. How hard is it in today's league to wind a swingman that scores at an ultra-efficient rate, has range, can run the pick n' roll with EASE and level up with the best, grab 4-5 rebounds, AND be a legitimate play-maker to run an offensive scheme? Very hard.

And to the comment about Manu and Pierce, we've seen what those guys can do, they're old, and even when they had the ability to play at the level they did, they weren't loaded with this much potential. Harden can surpass those guys, but this is a step. It's a building piece around a project. He's an olympic champ, players are aware he's the real deal, he has the ability to attract others.

[MaxRider]

That's not strategy. That's literally praying that the balls fall our way, and nothing more. Not to mention...what are the chances that the guy you get is going to be better than James Harden anyways? There was a thread on the Board that shall not be named that pointed that Shabazz Muhammed, the guy who tankers like you claim we should have gotten somehow..... is frequently compared to James Harden.

I mean, seriously, I've been disgusted by the ease which fanbases accept tanking these days, but we're getting to the point where the Sterling style of running a team is actually lauded as a GOOD thing. And that needs to change.

workout pretty well as long you don't draft a 7 foot or above center

12- Davis ; looking good so far
11- Irving ; you know Cleveland tank for him, i'll take him over Harden
10- Wall ; tough choice, his team is bad
09- Griffin ; need to say?
08- Rose ; top 5 players when healthy
07- Oden ; 7 footer, should've go with Durant
06- Bargnani ; Toronto screw up, we all know the best player during draft was Roy
05- Bogut ; another 7 footer center, best player was CP3
04- Howard ; he's shorter than 7 foot
03- James ; do i need to say?
02- Yao ; we know the story
01- Brown ; okay i'll shut up
so it's like 50/50 you will get a good player (if you draft right) with #1 overall pick
i'll take my 50% chance
tanking is bad
but still better than having all hopes up and then miss the playoff and stuck at #9 again and again and again

[MaxRider]

Max, it's not that easy. Daryl Morey and the Houston Rockets organization has been committed to the idea that tanking will not solve any problems. They have stated on numerous occasions that our game plan from day 1 has been committed to winning and being competitive while upgrading the roster. Morey has *never* been about developing a first round pick and building around him. It's been more or so to find that star/superstar to build around and go from there.

And why is everyone acting as if even the #1 pick in ANY draft has the potential even be as good or better than Harden? James Harden has not hit his ceiling. The kid is only 23 with 3 years of NBA experience under his belt. He's been to the playoffs every single season, he's been to the WCF, and the Finals. He played like a MONSTER in rounds 1, 2, and 3. He's showen the ability to close out in BIG playoff games when Westbrook and Durant weren't in their groove (v Dallas Game 4, V San Antonio Game 5). All objective evidence and advanced statistics point to one thing: he's got the ability to be the best SG in the ENTIRE league. He's 23 and already is undoubtably the 3rd best all-around shooting guard in the league. How hard is it in today's league to wind a swingman that scores at an ultra-efficient rate, has range, can run the pick n' roll with EASE and level up with the best, grab 4-5 rebounds, AND be a legitimate play-maker to run an offensive scheme? Very hard.

And to the comment about Manu and Pierce, we've seen what those guys can do, they're old, and even when they had the ability to play at the level they did, they weren't loaded with this much potential. Harden can surpass those guys, but this is a step. It's a building piece around a project. He's an olympic champ, players are aware he's the real deal, he has the ability to attract others.

i hate that phrase of " has not hit the ceiling" on young player
you can use that on almost everyone
didn't you guys use that on terrence williams?
harden was playing with durant and westbrook
team pay most of their defense attention on them and not harden
when thunder need harden the most to be the playmaker and he failed
it's a good plan
but this plan make sense if we still have half of our old team (we need to trade most of them to trade for harden) at least with dragic
but not lin

23 is young but this is his 4th year
usually players reach their ceiling around 3-5 years in this league
people just think younger is better
just have to realize these days players enter the league at age 19
before it was 21-23
imo harden is already at/near his ceiling
it's just that if he can figure out how to play without durant and westbrook

[MaxRider]

no point on arguing back and forth
you guys get the point that i don't like this trade
let's wait 3-4 years and come visit this again
hopefully realgm is still around and mod would actually let us talk about old stuff
no more from me on this topic

[Mount Mutombo]

Harden's name was called upon in the playoffs, and he struggled, which is a concern. I am not high on potential, seems like more and more draft picks recently are just quietly exiting the league. The fact that Harden is unproven as a star is a concern, and everyone is overrating the effect Harden will have. We have no idea how he'll do as a starter on a team where he can't rely on Durant or Westbrick to pick up the load if he's having an off night. Overall, whatever, meh - the trade is a medium risk high reward type of thing. He won't excel until we have a decent core around him, his passing might be neutralized if Parsons, Lin, Delfino...etc aren't hitting shots at a high clip.

[moofs]

so it's like 50/50 you will get a good player (if you draft right) with #1 overall pick
i'll take my 50% chance
tanking is bad
but still better than having all hopes up and then miss the playoff and stuck at #9 again and again and again

I can't recall the chart, but there's like a 40% chance (not 50%) that the #1 pick pans out. When there's no clear-cut #1, GMs tend to go with size, cause, y'know, you can't teach it.

There's a 25% chance that if you're THE worst team that you'll get the #1 pick, .

#1, 25.0% chance of receiving the #1 pick
#2, 19.9% chance
#3, 15.6% chance
#4, 11.9% chance
#5, 8.8% chance
#6, 6.3% chance
#7, 4.3% chance
#8, 2.8% chance

You have a ~1/7 chance of being the worst team if you go into tank mode, the less attractive you are for the draftee, and less marketable you are for your fans, the better your odds!

I'm going to assume that if you tank, there's a 100% chance you're in the bottom 8 in the league, and that you have less chance of being the worst than of being the 8th worst, so IF you tank, you're looking at, on average, (.9 * .25 + .10 * .2 + .11 * .156 + ... + .16 * .043 + .17 * .028) = .3 / 8 = 3.8% chance of landing the #1 pick. Hell, let's make this interesting. We'll just say you have a 10% chance of landing it, just for grins.
Take that 40% chance of a #1 pick being a superstar and you have a ... well.. a 4% chance at landing a superstar by tanking.

Within 20 years, there's about a 56% chance that you'll have drafted a superstar via the #1 pick if you tank every year (actually, closer to 29%). Now, if you add in the odds of your other lottery picks, your odds get a bit better, but even expanding these calculations to cover the top 10 picks, I'd estimate that there's maybe an 8-12% chance of getting a superstar via draft.

Yeah, let's do it. Let's tank. Who wants the best shooting guard in the league when you can suck for 7 years to get a middling lottery pick who'll score a lot, yet never net your team many wins?

[Mount Mutombo]

Morey has to much on the line to go full on Golden State Warriors tank. He preaches effort.

[Sasaki]

Harden's name was called upon in the playoffs, and he struggled, which is a concern. I am not high on potential, seems like more and more draft picks recently are just quietly exiting the league. The fact that Harden is unproven as a star is a concern, and everyone is overrating the effect Harden will have. We have no idea how he'll do as a starter on a team where he can't rely on Durant or Westbrick to pick up the load if he's having an off night. Overall, whatever, meh - the trade is a medium risk high reward type of thing. He won't excel until we have a decent core around him, his passing might be neutralized if Parsons, Lin, Delfino...etc aren't hitting shots at a high clip.

I just don't get this "Harden sucked in the Finals, therefore he's not a star." None of the Thunder players played all that well, are they not stars? Lebron stunk it up when he got to the Finals in 2007, is he not a star? And furthermore, Harden DID play well throughout the playoffs as a whole- OKC doesn't defeat San Antonio without him.

[90sAllDecade]

I like this trade a lot. we're building a nice solid nucleus of youth with room to sign another max player. Lin needs to develop into at least a 17 and 7 guy over his time here and Harden will most likely be a top flight all star SG as Wade, Kobe and Manu age and eventually decline. He could possibly put up 19 - 25+ points a game with the right system and 18-20 shots a night. He already gets to the FT line like a star, can put up assists and rebound along with solid defense that could improve under Mchale. Asik might also become a true rebounding and defensive monster to be a game changer on that end of the court.

With another superstar potential player move, we could actually do some damage in the future. I'm excited.

Not sure where you came up with 17/7 but those are all star numbers. This was taken from another board, but here are the 2011-2012 stats of PG's that were in Lin's salary range. All but one weren't even close to averaging 13/7.

Player: Points / Assists / Rebounds / Steals / 3PT%
Mike Conley: 12.7 / 6.5 / 2.5 / 2.2 / .377
George Hill: 9.6 / 2.9 / 3.0 / 0.8 / .367
Devin Harris: 11.3 / 5.0 / 1.8 / 1.0 / .362
Jameer Nelson: 11.9 / 5.7 / 3.2 / 0.7 / .377
Goran Dragic: 11.7 / 5.3 / 2.5 / 1.3 / .337
Mo Williams: 13.2 / 3.1 / 1.9 / 1 / .389

People have unrealistic expectations.

I do think Harden/Lin/Parsons will make up the bulk of the scoring though.

I disagree, those aren't necessarily all star numbers at all.

Well, you took Goran's stats while he was coming off the bench averaging 26 minutes, if you look at his 28 games as a starter while playing 36 minutes:
As Starting Guard: 28 games 36.5 minutes FG% .490 3pt% 379 8.4 assists 18.0 pts

Kyle Lowry averaged 14 and 6.6 last year. Aaron Brooks averaged 19.6 and 5.3 one year as a Rocket. None of those guys have made an all star game and all make as much or less than Lin. Also Ty Lawson at 16 and 6.6 who is 24 and makes less than Lin.

Lin himself averaged 14 and 6 in just 27 minutes per game last year. He averaged 18.2 and 7.7 as a starting PG last year in 25 games of the 35 total he played. He is coming off a major injury, but he also just turned 24 and has three years to improve. I just don't agree with you that 17 and 7 is unrealistic, especially since it's just three points more than he averaged last year.

[Baller 24]

i hate that phrase of " has not hit the ceiling" on young player
you can use that on almost everyone
didn't you guys use that on terrence williams?
harden was playing with durant and westbrook
team pay most of their defense attention on them and not harden
when thunder need harden the most to be the playmaker and he failed
it's a good plan
but this plan make sense if we still have half of our old team (we need to trade most of them to trade for harden) at least with dragic
but not lin

23 is young but this is his 4th year
usually players reach their ceiling around 3-5 years in this league
people just think younger is better
just have to realize these days players enter the league at age 19
before it was 21-23
imo harden is already at/near his ceiling
it's just that if he can figure out how to play without durant and westbrook

Listen, I know you don't like the trade. But I'm not trying to argue or change your mind. I'm trying to state that you're flat out wrong on some of the assessments you're throwing out there (and I usually agree with you on a lot of things).

[Mount Mutombo]

Harden's name was called upon in the playoffs, and he struggled, which is a concern. I am not high on potential, seems like more and more draft picks recently are just quietly exiting the league. The fact that Harden is unproven as a star is a concern, and everyone is overrating the effect Harden will have. We have no idea how he'll do as a starter on a team where he can't rely on Durant or Westbrick to pick up the load if he's having an off night. Overall, whatever, meh - the trade is a medium risk high reward type of thing. He won't excel until we have a decent core around him, his passing might be neutralized if Parsons, Lin, Delfino...etc aren't hitting shots at a high clip.

I just don't get this "Harden sucked in the Finals, therefore he's not a star." None of the Thunder players played all that well, are they not stars? Lebron stunk it up when he got to the Finals in 2007, is he not a star? And furthermore, Harden DID play well throughout the playoffs as a whole- OKC doesn't defeat San Antonio without him.

I'm going by a small sample size. Harden, quite frankly, is a mystery.

[MaxRider]

i wasn't talking about you
it was someone else ...

[Aaron Brooks]

whats this im hearing about OKC wanting parsons in the deal originally? i read through that whole 83 page thread in general forums and there was nothing on it

[TMU]

whats this im hearing about OKC wanting parsons in the deal originally? i read through that whole 83 page thread in general forums and there was nothing on it

LOL

[MaxRider]

whats this im hearing about OKC wanting parsons in the deal originally? i read through that whole 83 page thread in general forums and there was nothing on it

it was in the story somewhere, i think espn
okc original wanted martin+parson+3 1st round picks (toronto lottery pick, dallas top 20 protected pick, and 2013 houston own pick)
morey counter with martin+lamb+2 1st round picks (keeping own pick)+2nd round pick (charlotte)

[rocketsballin]

nice counter by morey. **** no they aint getting parsons aka the white lebron james as some of you call him

[moofs]

no point on arguing back and forth
you guys get the point that i don't like this trade
let's wait 3-4 years and come visit this again
hopefully realgm is still around and mod would actually let us talk about old stuff
no more from me on this topic

Max, I was waiting to hammer you on it yesterday for that exact reason - because you NEVER like any of our trades!

[x-]

whats this im hearing about OKC wanting parsons in the deal originally? i read through that whole 83 page thread in general forums and there was nothing on it

It's from Woj:

Before sitting down a final time with Pelinka, Presti became more serious in his discussions with Morey. Houston wanted Harden badly, believed he would evolve into a transcendent franchise star for a championship-caliber team and planned to award him a five-year maximum contract worth nearly $80 million. So, Presti laid out what he wanted for Harden and the original price was steep: Kevin Martin, Chandler Parsons, Jeremy Lamb and three first-round picks, including Houston's own in 2013.

Across 72 hours and culminating on Friday night, the deal became this: Martin, Lamb and two first-round picks, including a guaranteed plumb lottery pick via Toronto. Before Presti sat down with Pelinka on Saturday morning to make his final offer of $54 million over four years, the Rockets were made to understand: If Harden turns it down, your long-awaited star is on his way to Texas.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--insid ... 01609.html