Raptors or Indiana

[ybilynets]

I'm a raptors fan, butI would like to hear your honest opinion of whether your team is better than ours and why... and dw I won't be offended

[Wizop]

If you can't be optimistic in July and August, you aren't a fan. This time of year we're all in love with our teams. Okay, maybe not Philly fans, but even they can believe there is a plan this time of year.

Pacer fans are going to like their team more. Reasons? Paul George and Frank Vogel. My internet friend from Toronto isn't sold on your coaching. I'll shoot him an email to try and coax him into joining this thread.

I have to admit that you gave our old big lineup fits, and our new lineup may take some time to gel. Power forward has been your weakness and now it may be ours unless PG really gets big minutes there or Turner manages to avoid being hazed by the refs for being a rookie.

[Jermainevent]

Really interesting question that is pretty difficult to answer at this point considering how many roster moves we made, our change in style of play, and the uncertainty surrounding Paul George's return.

If George is 100% he's the best player on both team's, so that gives the Pacers a leg up. Lowry is fresh off an All-Star appearance and DeRozan went to one in 2014. Monta Ellis, George Hill, and DeMarre Carroll are the next best three. Now you shift to the front court and based on experience with Valanciunas, Scola, Patterson, and Biyombo I would probably give you guys the edge against our post players, depending on where we play PG13. I do like our guys off the bench a little more, Stuckey and Miles for instance, although Ross and Joseph are talented.

I think at the end of the day you guys are built to compete right now, while we are a couple of years away.

[Wizop]

If we are a couple of years away, we shouldn't have signed Ellis. He's not as close to the edge as Gore and Johnson (the guys the Colts signed should any of you not be American football fans), but he's close enough that the front office must think we are in win now mode. Now Turner could be a couple of years away and DWest certainly agrees that this won't be our year. If the standard is getting past a healthy Cleveland, I'm not sure either team is up for that. Assuming they do change the playoff seeding to a straight 1-8, I think we'll both be shooting for the 2 or 3 so we don't hit Cleveland before the ECF.

[Jermainevent]

If we are a couple of years away, we shouldn't have signed Ellis. He's not as close to the edge as Gore and Johnson (the guys the Colts signed should any of you not be American football fans), but he's close enough that the front office must think we are in win now mode. Now Turner could be a couple of years away and DWest certainly agrees that this won't be our year. If the standard is getting past a healthy Cleveland, I'm not sure either team is up for that. Assuming they do change the playoff seeding to a straight 1-8, I think we'll both be shooting for the 2 or 3 so we don't hit Cleveland before the ECF.

I don't really understand the logic of not signing Ellis if we are a couple are years away from competing for a Eastern Conference Title, he's still going to help keep us relevant. I see us winning around 45 games pushing for a 5th of 6th seed where I could see Toronto winning closer to 50 wins and a top three seed. I guess I should have specified that I feel like Toronto is a greater threat to Cleveland than we are, currently.

[SmashMouthRod]

From my perspective, I believe Indiana will be better than Toronto. Paul George is a superstar. My expectations for him may be higher than most of our fans. But watching Harden last season validated the impact a superstar can have on a team. Houston was a two seed despite Howard, Beverly and T. Jones being down for a chunk of the season. Guys like Ariza, Motiejunas, washed up Jet and Capela were elevated because of Hardens aggressive play. I believe that a healthy Paul George will have a similar impact. Teams will have their game plans centered around stopping or containing Paul and to a lesser degree Ellis. This development will make Jordan Hill, Myles Turner, and all of our others guys better than what they are. Guys like G. Hill and CJ Miles will be the main beneficiaries in getting open looks. I like Lowry, Jonas and DeRozan. DeMarre Carroll's good too. But Toronto doesn't really have a superstar. Their more of a very good well balanced team. I expect a healthy Paul to elevate Indiana to a potential 3 - 5 seed. I expect Toronto to be anywhere from 5-8. Paul stated recently that he expects to be in the MVP conversations. With that kind of proclamation Indy will have to be elevated.

[jarryd3107]

If we are a couple of years away, we shouldn't have signed Ellis. He's not as close to the edge as Gore and Johnson (the guys the Colts signed should any of you not be American football fans), but he's close enough that the front office must think we are in win now mode. Now Turner could be a couple of years away and DWest certainly agrees that this won't be our year. If the standard is getting past a healthy Cleveland, I'm not sure either team is up for that. Assuming they do change the playoff seeding to a straight 1-8, I think we'll both be shooting for the 2 or 3 so we don't hit Cleveland before the ECF.

I don't really understand the logic of not signing Ellis if we are a couple are years away from competing for a Eastern Conference Title, he's still going to help keep us relevant. I see us winning around 45 games pushing for a 5th of 6th seed where I could see Toronto winning closer to 50 wins and a top three seed. I guess I should have specified that I feel like Toronto is a greater threat to Cleveland than we are, currently.

Agreed. As Bobby Marks has been saying this off season, it's not enough for teams to just have cap space to attract free agents any more. Teams need to be winning games or showing a plan. That's why Monroe picked Milwaukee over NY and LA.

So I like the Ellis signing for that reason, help us win 45 games and hopefully the next A-grade free agent we like will see himself as the missing piece.




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[Scoot McGroot]

If we are a couple of years away, we shouldn't have signed Ellis. He's not as close to the edge as Gore and Johnson (the guys the Colts signed should any of you not be American football fans), but he's close enough that the front office must think we are in win now mode. Now Turner could be a couple of years away and DWest certainly agrees that this won't be our year. If the standard is getting past a healthy Cleveland, I'm not sure either team is up for that. Assuming they do change the playoff seeding to a straight 1-8, I think we'll both be shooting for the 2 or 3 so we don't hit Cleveland before the ECF.

I don't really understand the logic of not signing Ellis if we are a couple are years away from competing for a Eastern Conference Title, he's still going to help keep us relevant. I see us winning around 45 games pushing for a 5th of 6th seed where I could see Toronto winning closer to 50 wins and a top three seed. I guess I should have specified that I feel like Toronto is a greater threat to Cleveland than we are, currently.

Agreed. As Bobby Marks has been saying this off season, it's not enough for teams to just have cap space to attract free agents any more. Teams need to be winning games or showing a plan. That's why Monroe picked Milwaukee over NY and LA.

So I like the Ellis signing for that reason, help us win 45 games and hopefully the next A-grade free agent we like will see himself as the missing piece.




Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Say, if Paul George looks like a natural at the 4, we would have max cap space available next year for a guy like, oh.....say.....Kevin Durant? He'd certainly be a "missing piece" kind of guy.

[Scoot McGroot]

If we are a couple of years away, we shouldn't have signed Ellis. He's not as close to the edge as Gore and Johnson (the guys the Colts signed should any of you not be American football fans), but he's close enough that the front office must think we are in win now mode. Now Turner could be a couple of years away and DWest certainly agrees that this won't be our year. If the standard is getting past a healthy Cleveland, I'm not sure either team is up for that. Assuming they do change the playoff seeding to a straight 1-8, I think we'll both be shooting for the 2 or 3 so we don't hit Cleveland before the ECF.

I don't really understand the logic of not signing Ellis if we are a couple are years away from competing for a Eastern Conference Title, he's still going to help keep us relevant. I see us winning around 45 games pushing for a 5th of 6th seed where I could see Toronto winning closer to 50 wins and a top three seed. I guess I should have specified that I feel like Toronto is a greater threat to Cleveland than we are, currently.

Agreed. As Bobby Marks has been saying this off season, it's not enough for teams to just have cap space to attract free agents any more. Teams need to be winning games or showing a plan. That's why Monroe picked Milwaukee over NY and LA.

So I like the Ellis signing for that reason, help us win 45 games and hopefully the next A-grade free agent we like will see himself as the missing piece.




Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Speaking of, here's that article from Bobby Marks. It's really worth a read. For those of you who don't know, he was the Nets primary cap specialist for a long time before splitting ways with the franchise mid-season. He's not a lawyer, and learned the CBA in order to climb in the organization, so he has a way of writing/reporting for the common sports fan. He definitely was a "must follow" on Twitter this summer.

http://hoopshype.com/2015/07/19/the-great-big-myth-of-free-agency-2016/

[basketballwacko2]

If you can't be optimistic in July and August, you aren't a fan. This time of year we're all in love with our teams. Okay, maybe not Philly fans, but even they can believe there is a plan this time of year.

Pacer fans are going to like their team more. Reasons? Paul George and Frank Vogel. My internet friend from Toronto isn't sold on your coaching. I'll shoot him an email to try and coax him into joining this thread.

I have to admit that you gave our old big lineup fits, and our new lineup may take some time to gel. Power forward has been your weakness and now it may be ours unless PG really gets big minutes there or Turner manages to avoid being hazed by the refs for being a rookie.

I think by the end of the season we'll be better than the Raptors. Allen is gonna emerge as a much improved player and Turner is better than we thought. He might be a bit foul prone but he'll come around. I hope Joe Young gets minutes because that kid can flat play.

[EuroPacer]

I'm not going to make predictions for this season, it is too early to say how we are going to gell precisely.

What I will say though is that we (Pistons) are in the toughest division in the East by far, in fact, I would go as far and say that this (With Southwest) is one of the toughest divisions in the league at the moment. The Raptors however are in what I would consider the weakest division, so the record at the end is not going to be all that relevant.

Having said that, do I like the Raptors this year? No not really, too many good guys, not enough brilliant guys. I miss that one star player, DeRozan is a good player, Lowry is a good player, Valanciunas is a good player, but none of them are going to make the team relevant in terms of competing at the top. I think Carroll will prove to be an overpaid player and although the depth of the team is great it isn't going to be enough to compete with the likes of the Cavs, Bucks (Who I really like now with Monroe on there to add experience) and possibly us and the Bulls.

Do I like our roster better? At the moment, no, we need to see how it all develops this year but the year after is that I have high hopes for.

[Scoot McGroot]

What I will say though is that we (Pistons)

WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO TELL US?!?!?

[Wizop]

My internet friend from Toronto isn't sold on your coaching. I'll shoot him an email to try and coax him into joining this thread.

Here is what he emailed me (you might want to paste this onto the Raptors board):

Masai went out of his way NOT to hire the obvious replacement for Casey. But he demanded Casey restructure the crew because there was ample evidence coaching wasn't helping last year. So new coaches, one for defense and one for professionalism (Andy Greer over from Chicago and Jerry Stackhouse respectively). Casey did get ONE of HIS guys, bringing in Rex Kalamian from Scott Brooks' old staff at OKC. There's not a head coach in the lot, although I could see Stackhouse being thought of, once his coaching is seen in action. My guess is that a summary execution would bring in the possibility of Thibodeux, given the Greer connection. But I can't see him coming North before the Raptors make at least a trade or two AND probably will wait until seeing who Toronto gets with the worst of the Knicks/Nuggets picks next summer.

It's obvious Greer's here to coach defense, the Casey specialty. Greer will coach TO Casey's system, but he's going to have a lot to say about that system. The reason is pretty simple. Casey SEEMS to have a one-system fits all approach to coaching. And sorry, but that doesn't cut it. IF your system requires an athletic rim protector that can quarterback the defense given all of his years of experience, then the system will fail in Toronto. It'll work with Biyombo on the floor. But he's that 16-18 minute guy, not the starter. And never will be a starter. And even saying he FITS the Casey system, it's unlikely that Biyombo gets to call upon all of his three year's experience as a backup to demand the respect of his fellow Raptors (in fact, I think he's out of the rotation for Noguiera before the all-star game).

The Casey defensive system is a zone masquerading as a man-to-man. The principles are to push the other team into taking 18-20 foot shots, a noble goal. It means lots of switching, crowding the paint and jumping the three-point lane. Bigs have to show on pick and rolls. It's a TOUGH defense to get all the moving parts to work. And, hard as it is to say, Valanciunas will never, ever be the guy Casey needs him to be. Valanciunas is still an, "aw shucks, sorry Coach" kind of defender. He doesn't speak/bark English well enough on the floor to be the QB. He's a working grunt and I mean that in all senses of the word. He simply doesn't GET what's required of him and I don't think he will. I've got hopes for Noguiera, who seems to enjoy the role, but not JV.

So, what to do? Casey has continued, to this point, to try to cram that square peg into the round hole. Doesn't have the QB. Then, last year, he lost the second effort part of his defensive scheme. The total turnstile that the guard rotation turned into meant paint protection was almost comically bad. The NBA is an athlete's league and anybody who complains Vasquez couldn't keep in front of the Teague's and Irving's and Wall's, is an idiot. Of COURSE he couldn't do it. But what's the old Yoda saying ... "There is no try, only do," applies here. Vasquez and Williams made no secret of not even trying. The idea was to get the ball back up the court and hit the three-pointer to finish plus one for the exchange. Lowry was at his best taking charges under the basket. Otherwise, he only fared better than the departed guards cuz he actually tried (and failed) to defend at the point of the attack. His offence squared the defensive short-comings.

Rebounding, the perennial Raptor bugaboo, was mitigated a lot in the first year A.C. (After Colangelo). The Sacremento Four were SOOOOO grateful to have escaped Looney Tunes Town, that nothing short of giving their best was enough. A year later, some with flashy new contracts, the urgency had left, reverting them to what they were before ... not good enough. And yes, I add Patterson to this lot, even though he does SOO much positive overall, that I forgive him a few faults.

Which brings me to DeRozan and Ross. DeRozan's a peculiar guy. He works harder than any Raptor in history. Give Carter his work ethic and Carter would be thinking about retiring with his eight rings next year. He picks a skill each year to work on and has annually shown that he's improved in that skill. It's rather impressive in an incremental way. He's never picked a defensive skill to work on. It's the nature of defence that it's hard to work on in isolation. So maybe I'm being harsh on him. But an all-star looking for MAX money next summer has to be a 30 point scorer (think Anthony, Harden) to be a lousy to atrocious defender. And DeRozan SHOULD get his 22, average six assists and four rebounds. And maybe play a bit better on defence, going for the incremental upgrade. Toronto would be happy with that, even though that would likely make him closer to a plus two or three point player. Not a max player anywhere but in his mind. Summer 2016 will be very, very interesting.

Now, Ross. The athlete with the chops to go off for 50, be the best defender for a half and frequently a sideline watcher as other, less-talented players get the burn. He's a quiet nice kid. He DOES have the fire that you see in Lowry and DeRozan. BUT, he needs to find a doc that will prescribe a lifetime of adderall. His inability to focus except when he puts himself into a mano-a-mano contest with somebody he doesn't like, or that likes and admires, is infuriating. A coach killing type of infuriating.

Would Ross do better in a different coaching scheme? We'll eventually find out if he follows Carroll's example and becomes a 3 AND D wing or just a tease. But it can't be in the scheme Casey is so damned determined to shove down the throat of the team he has. And that's where I draw the line at backing Casey. I can't.

Coaches have a well-defined set of jobs. Stengel once said, "My job is to keep the 10 guys who hate my guts from the 10 who aren't sure." Great line. But it goes to the PSYCHOLOGY of coaching. You have to get your guys to buy in. And frankly, with one 2/3rds of a season exception, he hasn't done that. He hasn't found the trigger. He's barely on speaking terms with James Johnson, who, if properly reigned in, is a good defensive piece to work with. He fought Lowry to the point where Ujiri had the trade done with the Knicks. He allows DeRozan free range, when a seat beside him saying, "Son, you just can't do that on the floor. The refs aren't buying it, even though you did get hacked a little. This is a man's league. Think about that for a minute before I put you back in." His blind eye to the antics of Williams and Vasquez, plus his two stars, plus hammering at Valanciunas and Ross' confidence adds up to a pink slip, in my mind.

Bird's been yapping small ball all summer (okay, he mentioned it a couple of times) and there's reason Indy can be pretty good this year despite divesting themselves of a complete all-star big unit. Voegel will coach the new talent he has, rather than the system that worked until it stopped working. Voegel can be trusted to do that. Casey's got his system. And it's his system uber alles. Ergo, Casey earns no trust, based on history.

CAN Casey change? Don't know. I like the guy. He'd make just a great neighbour, somebody who would have your back in time of need. But I can't see him changing easily. Maybe, with a new guy to pawn off the responsibility on, he can bend more than history dictates that he can. This team has to be a smart, five working parts type of defence. The PF rotation has old and treacherous Scola and not-so-young Patterson, who has to QB in the place of Valanciunas' lack of leadership skills. Neither will be athletic enough to go bouncing at corner threes. Valanciunas has to be coached to be better at defensive rebounding. Improvement there and getting some good D minutes from Biyombo and Noguiera and James Johnson, plus Carroll, will be enough to make things better. DeRozan will be DeRozan. An immovable object who Ujiri seriously thinks about trading next spring. And then there will be some solution to the PG issue. Lowry hates to lose, so SHOULD be easy to coach. Joseph will defend. So will Wright on the (not so) odd occasion when Lowry's hurt and he needs time on the floor in The Show. I think competition WILL make Lowry better. I just wish his body had more tread on it. Lowry gives his all, but I see a lot of Amir Johnson in him. And that's not good.

At no point in the above did I mention Casey and the word OFFENCE. Offence is not his purview. I suspect that he'll be happy to have Stackhouse and Kalamian work on that. One leading indicator of coaches is their plays out of time outs. The Raptors do better under Casey than most coaches. So, a rare kudo to Casey on that. But his predecessors, Triano and Mitchell, did even better. So, slightly less than a full kudo. Offence won't save Casey's job and it won't kill it either. It's ALL about the D.

Coaches teach, strategize and put players in position to succeed. They rally the troops, goading one guy and puffing up the guy next to him that lacks confidence. He uses playing time and EVEN the willingness to lose a game to prove a HUGE point. The goal, as always, is the win the last game you play each year (assuming you DO win enough to get into the playoffs). That's all, one game over .500 after the playoff spot has been clinched (Actually four games if you've been paying attention, but STILL win that last game!). He coaches behind closed doors, never in front of microphones. He tells the truth, cuz keeping track of lies is ... impossible. He LEADS his team, the team he has, not the team he hoped he'd have. He has grey hair, because the coaches who win have grey hair. It's the nature of the game. He hires guys who COULD coach the team if he wasn't around for whatever reason. It's an incredibly tough job, and JUST getting hired to be one is sort of an amazing vote of confidence. But you can't be rigid and keep that job.

Hope that explains why a large group of Torontonians want his hide, even while admiring the guy and the way he's fought to get that second chance.

[EuroPacer]

What I will say though is that we (Pistons)

WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO TELL US?!?!?

Hahahaha! Where did that come from! I know I was thinking about the division, but that is a terrible Freudian slip. Perhaps I want even more eternal mediocrity and I should change my nick to EuroPiston

[Clutch31]

I think at the moment the Raptors might be a little better, but i'm not even sure of that.
I do feel the raptors are at their max and won't become any better, only marginal. In my opinion, the raptors are a treadmill team that should have broken down the team and start a rebuild. While the pacers are just on the beginning of a journey to something big. Lots of young players with so much potential. And even if the Pacers have a bad season now, it might be a blessing in dsiguise, it means they'll be able to draft another good player and will become even better the coming years.

[davidfr94]

The raptors Will hâve the better standing but if they face in the playoffs they Will certainely loose because of Paul George and vogel (and casey). They really hâve no one you can give the ball and expect that he Will score or creat for others in crunch Time. Éven monta is better than lowry or derozan at it

[8305]

I like what the Raptors did this offseason. I think Carroll is an excellent acquisition and their 2 deep at positions 1 through 3'gives them some interesting possibilities to go small like us.

PG. Lowrey/Joseph
SG. Derozen/Powell
SF. Carroll/Ross

Most of their key players are still likely to improve and if they keep the floor spread JV could show improvement as a scorer. If Paul George, Montana Ellis and George Hill really click I could still see us being better but, I don't think it a stretch to see Toronto as a top 4 team in the Eastern conference.

[PacerNation24]

Simply put I think we are better if Paul George is healthy since he is arguably top 10 in the NBA when healthy and we also gave him a legit 2nd option in Monta Ellis. Toronto has a decent team, but they don't have a Paul George level player.

[Jermainevent]

Bump

[Scoot McGroot]

Bump

Why?