All about the Fort Wayne Mad Ants

[Pacers Forever]

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[Wizop]

So the Ants clinched a playoff spot the same night the Pacers clinched a playing spot. Wild.

[8305]

I think Toppin returns. Stix will try to get starters minutes elsewhere but if that isn't available we might be able to keep him.

I’m torn. I’ve enjoyed Toppin this season. But, wonder if it makes sense to be paying him at the same time Walker will need minutes? I look at Walker and Brown and see a higher upside.

[Wizop]

I think Toppin returns. Stix will try to get starters minutes elsewhere but if that isn't available we might be able to keep him.

I’m torn. I’ve enjoyed Toppin this season. But, wonder if it makes sense to be paying him at the same time Walker will need minutes? I look at Walker and Brown and see a higher upside.

I think Walker and Brown are both going to be 3s not 4s.

[8305]

I think Toppin returns. Stix will try to get starters minutes elsewhere but if that isn't available we might be able to keep him.

I’m torn. I’ve enjoyed Toppin this season. But, wonder if it makes sense to be paying him at the same time Walker will need minutes? I look at Walker and Brown and see a higher upside.

I think Walker and Brown are both going to be 3s not 4s.

Position less basketball?

[JMaster5K]

I’m torn. I’ve enjoyed Toppin this season. But, wonder if it makes sense to be paying him at the same time Walker will need minutes? I look at Walker and Brown and see a higher upside.

I think Walker and Brown are both going to be 3s not 4s.

Position less basketball?

Nope,... Walker and Brown are both 'listed' at 6'8",... but neither of them is very long. Walker has a good wingspan,.. but he doesn't have the shoulder flex to reach up very well,.. standing reach is only 8'8.5",... Brown is smaller than Walker. (For reference, most "4's" have a standing reach sorta 8'10" +,... Pascal is 9'0", I-Jax is 9'1",.. Stix is 9'2.5" - as measured at either their pro days or the combine.)

That puts them both Walker and Brown as good sized (above average, but not top size) for a 3. It also makes them considerably undersized for a 4. The only guy currently starting as a 4 with that length is Aaron Gordon,.. and well,.. a 40" vertical makes up for a bit of that. =}

Both of them have also shown the floor coverage & quick hands on defense to cover 3's and be switchable, sorta 1-4. As well as the ball skills to create favorable mismatches on the offensive end. It also helps that Coach has a history of taking smaller college 4's and making really good, NBA 3's. (Ron Artest in 2003-04 for example - there were more examples in an older thread. He's done it a number of times.)

Gotta agree with Wizop on this one,... Kinda see Walker as a 3,.. and Brown as a 3. maybe even a 2 in certain lineups IF, he can get his ball skills up to a backcourt level? I don't think Toppin will really cut into Walker or Brown's dev time,.. but, if this take is right, Buddy would have been taking time from Benn, Ben, Walker, and Brown... though I do miss him & wish him all the success,.. unless he is playing us. =]

[8305]

I think Walker and Brown are both going to be 3s not 4s.

Position less basketball?

Nope,... Walker and Brown are both 'listed' at 6'8",... but neither of them is very long. Walker has a good wingspan,.. but he doesn't have the shoulder flex to reach up very well,.. standing reach is only 8'8.5",... Brown is smaller than Walker. (For reference, most "4's" have a standing reach sorta 8'10" +,... Pascal is 9'0", I-Jax is 9'1",.. Stix is 9'2.5" - as measured at either their pro days or the combine.)

That puts them both Walker and Brown as good sized (above average, but not top size) for a 3. It also makes them considerably undersized for a 4. The only guy currently starting as a 4 with that length is Aaron Gordon,.. and well,.. a 40" vertical makes up for a bit of that. =}

Both of them have also shown the floor coverage & quick hands on defense to cover 3's and be switchable, sorta 1-4. As well as the ball skills to create favorable mismatches on the offensive end. It also helps that Coach has a history of taking smaller college 4's and making really good, NBA 3's. (Ron Artest in 2003-04 for example - there were more examples in an older thread. He's done it a number of times.)

Gotta agree with Wizop on this one,... Kinda see Walker as a 3,.. and Brown as a 3. maybe even a 2 in certain lineups IF, he can get his ball skills up to a backcourt level? I don't think Toppin will really cut into Walker or Brown's dev time,.. but, if this take is right, Buddy would have been taking time from Benn, Ben, Walker, and Brown... though I do miss him & wish him all the success,.. unless he is playing us. =]

I’ve always equated length to wing span. Not sure of Brown’s but I’m pretty sure Walker’s is 7’2” which I think is solid for a 4. Not saying shoulder flex isn’t a real thing but, if it is Pacers must have totally slept on it since Walker in particular was drafted to play the 4.

As for the lateral versatility typically needed guard 3’s. That’s great but the quickness needed to guard 3’s wouldn’t preclude a guy from guarding 4’s. That’s what the position less game is all about. Walker and Brown look better able to guard multiple positions than Toppin. I would value lateral mobility a more important trait than shoulder flex.

[Pacers Forever]

I originally thought the Pacers drafted Brown as a very young longer term like they have with Tshiebwe. Walker I felt was drafted for the 4 as was Kendall Brown.

Now from what I’ve seen and read I feel Walker is a 3 and his ball handling skills and passing are his strengths. Shooting, defense, and rebounding are still a work in progress which none are a detriment.

Brown is listed as a a SG on the roster. I’m really not sure what he is but I don’t see him as a 4. So far we haven’t seen enough of his game play other than to see he gets up and down the court well. Other than that I’ve only seen him dunk or score a little in the paint.

[Wizop]

Wasn't Brown a 3 in college? He was drafted for his speed and defense knowing his shooting needed a lot of work. His g league scoring is much improved. I like our depth for next year.

[JMaster5K]

Position less basketball?

I’ve always equated length to wing span. Not sure of Brown’s but I’m pretty sure Walker’s is 7’2” which I think is solid for a 4. Not saying shoulder flex isn’t a real thing but, if it is Pacers must have totally slept on it since Walker in particular was drafted to play the 4.

As for the lateral versatility typically needed guard 3’s. That’s great but the quickness needed to guard 3’s wouldn’t preclude a guy from guarding 4’s. That’s what the position less game is all about. Walker and Brown look better able to guard multiple positions than Toppin. I would value lateral mobility a more important trait than shoulder flex.

Agree with you on the quickness,... if someone is quick enough to guard 3's, they are quick enough to guard 4's. They also need the strength and length to do it.

Just to clarify how I am using the terms,.. how I understand them, which may not be correct or the same way others use them?

Wingspan is the measurement from your right finger tip to your left fingertip with your arms extended side to side. You are right Walker has an exceptional wingspan. This also includes the width across his chest. It describes how (for my purposes) 'wide' a player can get on the court. The wider a player can get, the farther an opponent has to drive to turn the corner and get around them, and the greater area they have to create passing lanes offensively.

Unfortunately, as we've been learning over the last few years,.. wingspan doesn't = vertical reach. From a combine website page:

'Standing reach refers to the highest point a player can reach while keeping both feet flat on the ground and extending their arm upward. It’s a critical measurement to assess a player’s potential for rebounding, shot-blocking, and, most importantly, dunking'

Max vertical, of course, refers to their max height moving, from a running jump. Standing vertical refers to the max height jump from a standing, still position.

There was an article a few years ago, that I can't find now,... maybe someone here can still find it, from Marty Blake while he was the NBA director of scouting, talking about the importance of the various measurement and how they relate to basketball position. One of the key points was the general tendency to over-value max vertical for 4's and 5's, when (for most offensive & defensive scheme's) standing vertical, and standing reach are likely more important, particularly on defense.

Here is a chart from Draft Express with the averages of combine measurements by position from all the years they have on record:

https://www.draftexpress.com/average-measurements-by-position/all/NBA+Draft+Combine/all/60/

Same Chart for the 2023 draft:

https://www.draftexpress.com/average-measurements-by-position/2023/NBA+Draft+Combine/all/60/

In Walker's case,.. his standing reach is actually really low for a guys with his height and wingspan. So, either his chest is really broad & his arms aren't that long (which one look would tell you is wrong - LOL), or he can't reach as high directly over head as other people with his measurements - usually the ability to lift the shoulder up by your head to reach up - shoulder flex. (Same reason, but different body part - Hip Flex - that Ob1 has a hard time playing defense.)

That's the reason that he can be shot over & dunked over by guys his same height & slightly smaller, when he has to play position defense, on the block, against a post or face up. He doesn't have the length to bother the shot. If you get a chance to watch a mix of his blocks,.. most come on the move from the side, or from the weakside,.. he can do that because of his fast hands and 'width' of his reach, not because he can stand in front of the shot & go up and get it. He has the same strength & weakness in his rebounding. It's likely why he's never been a dominant rebounder,.. but he also why he should be better at rebounding in the NBA, than at Houston.

A bunch of this was written up by scouts prior to the draft. I think the only reason Walker was labelled a '4' pre-draft by the sports-writing world,... that was the position he played in college. I don't believe the Pacers drafted Walker specifically as a 4. Probably a 3-4 with specific matchups for each. The 2 (at least to me) interesting side-notes from this scouting analysis were,... 1. It will take Walker longer than a typical rookie to find his role in the NBA because he has more to learn in switching from Houston (and his Houston position) to the NBA (and a true NBA position based on his skills),... 2. His upside is likely to be higher in the NBA than it ever was at Houston (or his pre-draft predictions) because he isn't 'pidgeon-holed' into the power forward slot that he isn't ideally built to play.

(if you can find it Coach Spins - Adam Spinella - analysis on Walker predraft was glowing and really insightful. Too bad we aren't going to have his analysis moving forward,.. he's been hired as a video analyst by the 76er's. LOL) =}

The thing I keep going back to about Walker & the combine,... he essentially tied Cam Whitmore in all the testing except max vertical,... at 248 pounds when Whitmore was at 228. IF, he has and is really watching his weight, and training to play the 3,... given the time and hard work,.. his upside should be higher than Whitmore's. Whitmore would just be ready faster because he played the 3 in college, in a system (Villanova) that makes picking up the NBA game faster / easier. Walker's actual skillset (ball handling, passing, moving, defense) outside of scoring, at least in my opinion, is better than Whitmore's for the NBA game.

It's just my opinion, but the closest player that Coach has had to Walker coming out of college was Artest. Walker's learning curve is higher than Artest's. If Walker can become a version of himself that plays at the level Artest played in 03-04,... he could be league defensive player for a number of years,... just right now, it's all possibilities and maybe's,... but I really like what he's shown so far, as that type of player.

Add to this how the Pacers have actually used Walker this year,.. as a third ball handler, (both primary and secondary),.. primarily as a wing defender and shooter,.. weakside driver,.. and off the short roll to create for others,... it all seems to point to someone the coaches see primarily on the perimeter. Coach said as much in an interview before the trade deadline,...something to the effect that they were working to get him minutes at the 3.

I guess I don't think anyone really 'missed' anything on Walker. I just don't think the narrative around him pre-draft (sportswriters) reflected the reality that the NBA scouts found? That doesn't impact his potential, but unfortunately may have impacted public expectations. Caitlin even said pre-season, that she thought it was likely that Sheppard would see more meaningful playing time than Walker this season?

Ehhh,.. sorry for the long response,... just stream of thought typing,.. and didn't think there was anyway to explain in a couple of sentences,.... =/

Happy to see other thoughts?.... o0

[JMaster5K]

Wasn't Brown a 3 in college? He was drafted for his speed and defense knowing his shooting needed a lot of work. His g league scoring is much improved. I like our depth for next year.

Yes,... so far for the Pacers,.. he's played 53% of his minutes at SG and 47% at SF according to Basketball-reference.

[JMaster5K]

Again,... sorry,... will try not to type a whole book chapter,..... ={

[Wizop]

Again,... sorry,... will try not to type a whole book chapter,..... ={

there's nothing wrong with writing a whole book. what I hope we can avoid is quoting someone else's whole book and then someone else quoting both whole books. now I'll admit my editing habit dates back 40 years to a time when being online was charged by the minute and connection speeds were very slow. then editing quotes saved everyone money.

[Pacers Forever]

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[Wizop]

OT may force me to learn to spell his name next year.

[Tom White]

OT may force me to learn to spell his name next year.

Spell it? Heck, I wish I could even pronounce it properly.

[JMaster5K]

OT may force me to learn to spell his name next year.

Hmmmm,... O s c a r ?...... o0

(kidding - jk) =}

[Wizop]

OT may force me to learn to spell his name next year.

Hmmmm,... O s c a r ?...... o0

(kidding - jk) =}

sing along - my hot dog has a first name, it's O S C A R

for the record, I refuse to call anyone other than the original Big O

[Tom White]

sing along - my hot dog has a first name, it's O S C A R

Careful, or people will say you are full of baloney.

for the record, I refuse to call anyone other than the original Big O

That should be a state law.

[Pacers Forever]

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